Demon Weapons Don't Crosstrain

[MainiacJoe]

I just noticed this. Perhaps this is part of why there's no demon axe? Technically I guess a quick blade fits this niche and crosstrains with demon blades, but skill 8 is so ridiculously easy to get that this hardly bears mentioning.

[Rast]

Broad axe is demon axe.

[Shard1697]

Nah, broad axe is morningstar equivalent. Similar rarity and the same damage, it just takes 2 more skill for mindelay(which is also the same) in exchange for cleaving.

The demon weapons are all faster than normal while still having relatively high base damage, being better versions of earlygame weapons. Demon trident is better trident, demon blade is better falchion, demon whip is better whip.

So presumably if there was a demon hatchet it would probably have the same delay as a hand axe but higher base damage(12 or so). I don't know why there isn't one, it would be fun flavor and provide a bit more variety to one handed axe builds(which are currently "broad axe or fuck off"). But I get the feeling that adding an extra weapon would be like pulling teeth at this point.

[Lasty]

The way I see this, there are two rare tiers of 1H weapons. First is the fast 1H weapons with min delay < 0.7 (demon blade [12 damage, 14 skill], demon whip [11 damage, 12 skill], demon trident [12 damage, 14 skill]); second is the heavy 1H weapons with high damage for their class and 0.7 min delay (eveningstar [15 damage, 16 skill], double sword [14 damage, 16 skill], broad axe [13 damage, 18 skill]).

Axes don't have a "demon" weapon, and polearms don't have a "heavy, rare" weapon.

[Shard1697]

Broad axes are not as rare as double swords or eveningstars, and they are noticably weaker, plus take more skill. I don't see why they would be the equivalent of these more rare weapons when they are closer to morningstars/halberds/scimitars in rarity and power. Morningstar being the baseline of this tier since they have no special trait, while broad axes take more skill in exchange for cleaving, scimitars have -1 damage in exchange for riposte+less skill(to note: this is the best deal of these weapons), and halberds sacrifice one handedness for reaching(this is the worst deal).

Thusly, axes do not have a demon weapon OR a heavy rare 1H weapon. You are stuck in a worse layer of weapons if you go 1H axes than other weapons, which you can still certainly win with, just like how you can win with a morningstar-but it feels kind of lame(especially since demon weapons/holified demon weapons are among the coolest weapons in terms of flavor), and I do not see why axes need to be worse in this aspect.

[Rast]

If you're determined to use a shield, broad axe is awesome already, it doesn't need to get better.

[Shard1697]

Broad axe is good enough to get the job done, but not as good as 1H options for other weapon types-certainly not "awesome". Unless, again, you also think morningstars are "awesome".

Why should axes be worse at 1H?

[Siegurt]

Broad axes are not as rare as double swords or eveningstars, and they are noticably weaker, plus take more skill. I don't see why they would be the equivalent of these more rare weapons when they are closer to morningstars/halberds/scimitars in rarity and power. Morningstar being the baseline of this tier since they have no special trait, while broad axes take more skill in exchange for cleaving, scimitars have -1 damage in exchange for riposte+less skill(to note: this is the best deal of these weapons), and halberds sacrifice one handedness for reaching(this is the worst deal).

Thusly, axes do not have a demon weapon OR a heavy rare 1H weapon. You are stuck in a worse layer of weapons if you go 1H axes than other weapons, which you can still certainly win with, just like how you can win with a morningstar-but it feels kind of lame(especially since demon weapons/holified demon weapons are among the coolest weapons in terms of flavor), and I do not see why axes need to be worse in this aspect.

Broad axes are really between morningstars and eveningstars.

Similarly war axes are between flails and morningstars.

[Shard1697]

Why would war axes be "between" flails and morningstars when they are equivalent choices to flails at character creation, and show up at the same rarity on enemies like orcs?

[Siegurt]

Why would war axes be "between" flails and morningstars when they are equivalent choices to flails at character creation, and show up at the same rarity on enemies like orcs?

Because they are more powerful than flails, and less powerful than morningstars?

Also they are slightly rarer than flails early on (you don't often start seeing war axes on monsters until it appears on orc warriors, flails appear on gnolls quite frequently), and requires more skill.

I don't argue that this is how it should (or should not) be, only that it is so.

Of course part of how powerful axes are depends on how much you feel like cleave is worth (i put it at about 10% of the base damage of the weapon, myself) obviously that is subjective.

If you feel like cleave is worth closer to 20% then war axes are closer to morningstars and broad axes are closer to eveningstars, if you feel like cleave is worthless, then war axes are slightly more damaging and much more expensive flails