Shard1697 wrote:pseudopseudonymous wrote:Thanks for directing me to some awesome videos, but I didn't see any rejoneadors stabbing bulls while fleeing down a narrow corridor from a charging bull.. from ten feet
away.
If you start questioning range of weapons in crawl beyond "polearms reach 2 tiles away"(who says 2 tiles is 10 feet? this isn't dnd) the whole house of cards falls apart real fast. Shouldn't longswords be able to attack from twice the distance of daggers at least? Shouldn't spears have mildly farther reach than glaives, assuming you are making a swinging attack with the glaive? Shouldn't giant clubs and dire flails have a lot more reach than normal maces? Shouldn't you be able to attack from nearly as far away as a spear with a greatsword if you thrust? How big is a tile, anyways, when it can be occupied by a rat or a titan, but not both or two of either? How far do you have to reach to hit flying things? etc etc etc
Range in crawl is simply not meant to be simulationist, and not meant to have discrete measurements of distance beyond the tile based system the tactics revolve around. Centaurs have problems, but I don't think examining them from a simulationist point of view is the right way to go, and I also don't think crawl is built in a way to make directional "facing" mechanics work well. I cannot imagine a species which had to manage turning around affecting speed in various directions being any fun to play whatsoever, even compared to current centaurs. "Reality of the dungeon" is not a thing that really matters, and nothing about the dungeon feels realistic in the first place(and that is not a problem).
I find the dungeon quite consistent and realistic for the most part. Forget the numbers, call adjacent creatures 'close melee', and 2 squares 'far melee'- and a centaur fleeing down a corridor would not have access to its weapon for close melee, just its hooves, because that's the shape that centaurs are. If the creature isn't going to be a centaur, well, why have it be a centaur?
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There's a spectrum of simulationism between 'nonsense' and 'random chance to get incurable appendicitis and die, because diseases are real yo), and I'm contending that centaurs are close to the left side, not that they need to be close to the right.
It's possible an "actual centaur" wouldn't be fun, but then maybe centaurs just aren't suited to dungeons, when they thrive better maneuvering in open spaces (they're a lot like mongol horse archers), and the class could just be reskinned to not be a lore-badness outlier.
Alternative idea: centaur normal speed is 1, but they have a natural gallop ability that allows them to travel at speed 2 in a straight line, which costs food and maybe breath. (it doesn't skip a turn). That way they'd have an ability to flee when appropriate, and to reposition themselves, but limited in such a way you couldn't use it literally all of the time.
Of course these are extremely unrefined ideas I'm throwing out, but more generally- surely it could be fun to plan various firing points and the routes you will take between them, to have some kind of strategic mongol-horse-archer positioning type gameplay.
Right now centaurs are generically fast, good with ranged,
naturally armored,
go well with shields, have an auxillary attack, are big enough to fight well in water, and are a bit more robust than aveage.
Am I more describing a horse, or a large scaled creature which shoots things and has a consistent auxilary attack?
...like the halo 2 hunter?
https://www.google.ie/search?q=halo+2+h ... t1yxNxZceM:
Which species has more of the centaurs attributes?
I'll tell you, it's the hunter, which has every 'centaur' attibutes except barding, which is flavour, and maybe the aux attack, if you don't accept 'big enoug to slam people' or just slapping an aux on a hunter.
Centaurs don't have several of their own attributes: an affinity for shields (complete, complete, opposite. Really, this one is borked), generic speed (no, horses are fast in straight lines), scales (no, wtf?), auxiliary attack (eh, a bit, though more so if it were to rear up, or is attacking to the rear. probably not if moving backwards). More robust than average (it's not precluded by being a centaur, but there's nothing particularly centaur about it).
This isn't high level simulationism, it's "what the hell do scales and shields (and backward-moving nimbleness) have to do with a centaur?"
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Quick low quality brainstorm on what an actual centaur might be like:
hooves auxilary available available when moving backwards.
Hooves auxilary not only a passive attack, horse may rear up to strike with hooves, putting the armed torso out of reach until the attack is concluded. This attack has a chance to stun (confuse), but takes one or two turns. Very unsafe without barding. With barding, more safe than usual vs targets to the front.
centaurs can move quietly at normal speed, or have an option to move slower quietly, or can move quietly on soft surfaces.
centaurs have a toggleable speed: 1. whisper, 2 trot, 3 canter, 4 gallop, with each having different restrictions. (at higher speeds might take a turn or two to slow down, especially if there's no room to come to a curving half, might gain access to a jump ability (for when an enemy suddenly shows up in your escape path, to jump over them)
Without barding is quiet vulnerable and encouraged to position themselves carefully for ranged, attacks light mongol archer style. With barding can charge through enemies with its incredible straight line speed and weight. Barding could be an important thing to find, or just something to take on and off depending on what mode is most useful at the moment. (probably not gonna want barding to fight lernaen hydra)
Some areas of the game would be much harder, and some would be easier. This would provide variety and be in line with centaurs being much like mongol horse archers (or heavy knigths)
When reared up could maybe have option to crash down into position to strike again, or to crash down into a charge forward- to escape through/past the stunned/knocked-down enemy.
Like a rejoneador, centaur could have a special ability to stab monsters while diagonally moving past (when at the appropriate speed toggle) The monster who this happens to
has a chance to be unable to strike back, depending on the centaurs lets say EV (in turn dependent on centaurs barding level), and speed -or something else entirely but that represents that actual horse kiting style>
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As you mention that tiles and distances aren't simulationist, the centaur could even take up 2 tiles without conflicting with e.g. trolls -shrinkable to 1 if the centaur is trying to take up less space for turning around in a corridor or something
Of course this whole line of 'actualy being a centaur' might lead to unfun gameplay, (and naturally these particular ideas may suck), but again what's the point in having a "centaur" if it's mainly just going to be generically fast?(not to mention the shields and scales.)
Of course, "who cares" is a perfectly legitimate response, but is there any other species that's less "itself-like" than centaurs? is there any other species which is close? 'Simulationism' may not be a priority, but when you've got an outlier it implies that there's a level of cohesiveness generally achieved which it's failing to live up to.
imo, ymmv
Wednesday, 8th March 2017, 20:32 
