centaur kiting nonsense


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Lair Larrikin

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Post Wednesday, 8th March 2017, 20:32

centaur kiting nonsense

Could the game track the general direction of a centaur's last movements, and make attacking backwards impossible or less accurate based on them? A centaur galloping
away from an enemy would barely be able to reach it's own ass with a polearm, let alone attack an enemy two squares away.

(An exception could be made for hand crossbows, or other things that might make sense, but still a galloping centaur shooting backwards should be much less accurate than one standing still. centaur movement should be for respositioning, not kiting. A guy in place of a horses head wouldn't generally be able to attack backwards except with hooves)
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Thursday, 9th March 2017, 02:22

Re: centaur kiting nonsense

if you watch footage of a rejoneador(horseback bullfighter) you will learn that horses can in fact move backwards(or sideways) quite quickly. certainly a hell of a lot faster than things on 2 legs, and weapon reach is very very abstracted.

at any rate this seems kind of needlessly complex, and kiting is the reason centaurs exist. it's their whole deal. if you couldn't kite and attack as centaurs, why have centaurs in the game?

Shoals Surfer

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Post Thursday, 9th March 2017, 09:13

Re: centaur kiting nonsense

Shard1697 wrote:why have centaurs in the game?


Pretty much this.

Lair Larrikin

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Post Friday, 10th March 2017, 18:07

Re: centaur kiting nonsense

Thanks for directing me to some awesome videos, but I didn't see any rejoneadors stabbing bulls while fleeing down a narrow corridor from a charging bull.. from ten feet
away.

Horses can't move backwards that quickly, nor can someone fight backwards that easily on a horse, especially from range. (And the centaur is actually in a worse position for this than a rider, because it's torso is at the front of the horse, while a rider sits in the middle.)

Other than the hooves, there's nothing particularly centaur-like about the current centaur class. (bows somewhat, but not much) They also encourage boring, generic gameplay.

At the moment centaur is

1. out of tune with its own lore:
tough skin 3.. what?
better with shields, REALLY? -You know the dude at the front is normal sized, right? And he has a whole horse to protect... ..and he's at the front?!
speed is just generic speed, nothing to do with horses. (you would expect spriggans and felids to be nimble as well as fast. though less fast in a straight line )


2. 'overpowered', specifically in a tedious way.


which makes it

1. feel like a munchkin class- having the strongest class be the one with the worst lore, and the most tedious gameplay, is a bit of a slap in the face. (not much of one, but a bit)

2. Takes away from the reality of the dungeon. -No other class makes remotely this little sense, afaict.


It would actually be amazing if centaurs had to manouver like rejoneadors. It's kind of my point. Horses do not manouver like humans. Centaurs at the moment are a gimmick high speed species that has little to do with being a centaur, other than their hooves (which are great) and their bow aptitudes (good, but not all that distinctive), and their armor restrictions, (good, but has little impact on gameplay. also available on naga, where it makes a lot more sense: there's no reason a centaur warrior shouldn't be able to enter the dungeon with a modified horse barding, even if they don't have a proper one from a centaur civilisation)


If instead they had a fast ability to reposition themselves, but a restricted ability to turn at speed (for example), they could play a lot differently and hopefully be actual centaurs rather than fast satyrs. Otherwise they might as well be something that just has a general affinity for speed, rather than a very particulary affinity for raw speed in a straight line.

Though there are a lot centaur and centaur type monsters, which is an extra complication.
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Friday, 10th March 2017, 19:04

Re: centaur kiting nonsense

pseudopseudonymous wrote:Thanks for directing me to some awesome videos, but I didn't see any rejoneadors stabbing bulls while fleeing down a narrow corridor from a charging bull.. from ten feet
away.
If you start questioning range of weapons in crawl beyond "polearms reach 2 tiles away"(who says 2 tiles is 10 feet? this isn't dnd) the whole house of cards falls apart real fast. Shouldn't longswords be able to attack from twice the distance of daggers at least? Shouldn't spears have mildly farther reach than glaives, assuming you are making a swinging attack with the glaive? Shouldn't giant clubs and dire flails have a lot more reach than normal maces? Shouldn't you be able to attack from nearly as far away as a spear with a greatsword if you thrust? How big is a tile, anyways, when it can be occupied by a rat or a titan, but not both or two of either? How far do you have to reach to hit flying things? etc etc etc

Range in crawl is simply not meant to be simulationist, and not meant to have discrete measurements of distance beyond the tile based system the tactics revolve around. Centaurs have problems, but I don't think examining them from a simulationist point of view is the right way to go, and I also don't think crawl is built in a way to make directional "facing" mechanics work well. I cannot imagine a species which had to manage turning around affecting speed in various directions being any fun to play whatsoever, even compared to current centaurs. "Reality of the dungeon" is not a thing that really matters, and nothing about the dungeon feels realistic in the first place(and that is not a problem).

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Lair Larrikin

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Post Friday, 10th March 2017, 22:18

Re: centaur kiting nonsense

Shard1697 wrote:
pseudopseudonymous wrote:Thanks for directing me to some awesome videos, but I didn't see any rejoneadors stabbing bulls while fleeing down a narrow corridor from a charging bull.. from ten feet
away.
If you start questioning range of weapons in crawl beyond "polearms reach 2 tiles away"(who says 2 tiles is 10 feet? this isn't dnd) the whole house of cards falls apart real fast. Shouldn't longswords be able to attack from twice the distance of daggers at least? Shouldn't spears have mildly farther reach than glaives, assuming you are making a swinging attack with the glaive? Shouldn't giant clubs and dire flails have a lot more reach than normal maces? Shouldn't you be able to attack from nearly as far away as a spear with a greatsword if you thrust? How big is a tile, anyways, when it can be occupied by a rat or a titan, but not both or two of either? How far do you have to reach to hit flying things? etc etc etc

Range in crawl is simply not meant to be simulationist, and not meant to have discrete measurements of distance beyond the tile based system the tactics revolve around. Centaurs have problems, but I don't think examining them from a simulationist point of view is the right way to go, and I also don't think crawl is built in a way to make directional "facing" mechanics work well. I cannot imagine a species which had to manage turning around affecting speed in various directions being any fun to play whatsoever, even compared to current centaurs. "Reality of the dungeon" is not a thing that really matters, and nothing about the dungeon feels realistic in the first place(and that is not a problem).


I find the dungeon quite consistent and realistic for the most part. Forget the numbers, call adjacent creatures 'close melee', and 2 squares 'far melee'- and a centaur fleeing down a corridor would not have access to its weapon for close melee, just its hooves, because that's the shape that centaurs are. If the creature isn't going to be a centaur, well, why have it be a centaur?

_

There's a spectrum of simulationism between 'nonsense' and 'random chance to get incurable appendicitis and die, because diseases are real yo), and I'm contending that centaurs are close to the left side, not that they need to be close to the right.

It's possible an "actual centaur" wouldn't be fun, but then maybe centaurs just aren't suited to dungeons, when they thrive better maneuvering in open spaces (they're a lot like mongol horse archers), and the class could just be reskinned to not be a lore-badness outlier.



Alternative idea: centaur normal speed is 1, but they have a natural gallop ability that allows them to travel at speed 2 in a straight line, which costs food and maybe breath. (it doesn't skip a turn). That way they'd have an ability to flee when appropriate, and to reposition themselves, but limited in such a way you couldn't use it literally all of the time.

Of course these are extremely unrefined ideas I'm throwing out, but more generally- surely it could be fun to plan various firing points and the routes you will take between them, to have some kind of strategic mongol-horse-archer positioning type gameplay.



Right now centaurs are generically fast, good with ranged, naturally armored, go well with shields, have an auxillary attack, are big enough to fight well in water, and are a bit more robust than aveage.

Am I more describing a horse, or a large scaled creature which shoots things and has a consistent auxilary attack?

...like the halo 2 hunter?

https://www.google.ie/search?q=halo+2+h ... t1yxNxZceM:

Which species has more of the centaurs attributes?

I'll tell you, it's the hunter, which has every 'centaur' attibutes except barding, which is flavour, and maybe the aux attack, if you don't accept 'big enoug to slam people' or just slapping an aux on a hunter.

Centaurs don't have several of their own attributes: an affinity for shields (complete, complete, opposite. Really, this one is borked), generic speed (no, horses are fast in straight lines), scales (no, wtf?), auxiliary attack (eh, a bit, though more so if it were to rear up, or is attacking to the rear. probably not if moving backwards). More robust than average (it's not precluded by being a centaur, but there's nothing particularly centaur about it).

This isn't high level simulationism, it's "what the hell do scales and shields (and backward-moving nimbleness) have to do with a centaur?"
_


Quick low quality brainstorm on what an actual centaur might be like:

hooves auxilary available available when moving backwards.

Hooves auxilary not only a passive attack, horse may rear up to strike with hooves, putting the armed torso out of reach until the attack is concluded. This attack has a chance to stun (confuse), but takes one or two turns. Very unsafe without barding. With barding, more safe than usual vs targets to the front.

centaurs can move quietly at normal speed, or have an option to move slower quietly, or can move quietly on soft surfaces.

centaurs have a toggleable speed: 1. whisper, 2 trot, 3 canter, 4 gallop, with each having different restrictions. (at higher speeds might take a turn or two to slow down, especially if there's no room to come to a curving half, might gain access to a jump ability (for when an enemy suddenly shows up in your escape path, to jump over them)

Without barding is quiet vulnerable and encouraged to position themselves carefully for ranged, attacks light mongol archer style. With barding can charge through enemies with its incredible straight line speed and weight. Barding could be an important thing to find, or just something to take on and off depending on what mode is most useful at the moment. (probably not gonna want barding to fight lernaen hydra)

Some areas of the game would be much harder, and some would be easier. This would provide variety and be in line with centaurs being much like mongol horse archers (or heavy knigths)

When reared up could maybe have option to crash down into position to strike again, or to crash down into a charge forward- to escape through/past the stunned/knocked-down enemy.

Like a rejoneador, centaur could have a special ability to stab monsters while diagonally moving past (when at the appropriate speed toggle) The monster who this happens to
has a chance to be unable to strike back, depending on the centaurs lets say EV (in turn dependent on centaurs barding level), and speed -or something else entirely but that represents that actual horse kiting style>

c
e c

c
c e



As you mention that tiles and distances aren't simulationist, the centaur could even take up 2 tiles without conflicting with e.g. trolls -shrinkable to 1 if the centaur is trying to take up less space for turning around in a corridor or something



Of course this whole line of 'actualy being a centaur' might lead to unfun gameplay, (and naturally these particular ideas may suck), but again what's the point in having a "centaur" if it's mainly just going to be generically fast?(not to mention the shields and scales.)




Of course, "who cares" is a perfectly legitimate response, but is there any other species that's less "itself-like" than centaurs? is there any other species which is close? 'Simulationism' may not be a priority, but when you've got an outlier it implies that there's a level of cohesiveness generally achieved which it's failing to live up to.

imo, ymmv
Last edited by pseudopseudonymous on Friday, 10th March 2017, 22:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Friday, 10th March 2017, 22:24

Re: centaur kiting nonsense

pseudopseudonymous wrote:Right now centaurs are generically fast, good with ranged, naturally armored, go well with shields, have an auxillary attack, are big enough to fight well in water, and are a bit more robust than aveage.

Am I more describing a horse, or a large scaled creature which shoots things and has a consistent auxilary attack?

...like the halo 2 hunter?

https://www.google.ie/search?q=halo+2+h ... t1yxNxZceM:

Which species has more of the centaurs attributes?
Something with tough skin which moves fast and is heartier than a human being is definitely way way closer to a horse than hunters from Halo. I could not imagine a worse or less relevant comparison if I tried.

Everything you are posting you have to stretch like crazy to try and make it make sense, or is just completely unimportant with "solutions" which sound annoying, and, again, needlessly simulationist.

Lair Larrikin

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Post Friday, 10th March 2017, 22:26

Re: centaur kiting nonsense

*sigh*

Care to explain, or just gonna pose?

Also, there was that whole rest of my post
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Friday, 10th March 2017, 22:31

Re: centaur kiting nonsense

Centaurs are broken, OP and boring at the same time, because they are the embodiment of a broken, OP and boring mechanic: fast kiting. They should simply be removed, or subjected to some enormous revision; however, I think that, when things are so bad, it's easier to restart from scratch than to rework them into something usable.

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Post Friday, 10th March 2017, 22:35

Re: centaur kiting nonsense

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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Friday, 10th March 2017, 22:36

Re: centaur kiting nonsense

pseudopseudonymous wrote:*sigh*

Care to explain, or just gonna pose?

Also, there was that whole rest of my post
The shields thing is the one thing in your post that makes sense, but it doesn't really matter much.

I don't think I need to explain that something which has fast movespeed, hooves flavored attacks, skill with bows and bonus AC from tough leathery skin(but worse at using armor) is far far closer to "horse man" than "slow as shit easily dodged artillery tank worm monsters from a first person shooter". You keep calling the "tough skin" innate mut "scales" to try to make it seem like it doesn't make sense on centaurs, but it's not scales. It's tough skin. That's how it's flavored. Because horses have tougher skin than humans. Centaurs having a hard time defending their big awkward horse body is implemented via bad armor and dodging apts, as well as reduced base AC from body armor, and shouldn't be implemented in awkward directional and context sensitive "which parts of your body are facing which direction with what degree of closeness based on your recent actions" mechanics.

Your proposed solution turns something which is simple and OP into something which is needlessly, annoyingly complicated, and still OP because you can still run away from things just fine. It does not matter if you make the player turn around after running away from something before shooting them, because with higher movespeed(even when only moving away) you can create the space to do that safely. You have just introduced another step and made centaurs even more tedious, because instead of "run away, shoot when you have gaps between you and the enemy, repeat" it is now "run away, turn around when you have large gaps between you and the enemy, shoot, turn around again, repeat". And why on earth should you have an activated ability which is trash unless you have found a rare aux armor? Again, stupid and simulationist in a way which interferes with gameplay.

Your assertion that you find the dungeon "quite consistent and realistic" is basically complete nonsense and I don't even know where I could possibly begin with that. Everything about the dungeon is a bunch of high fantasy tropes mushed together to facilitate turn based, tile based tactics with RNG elements, with a few crufty old simulationist elements still lying around(basically just food at this point, which is far less simulationist than it used to be).
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Friday, 10th March 2017, 22:51

Re: centaur kiting nonsense

Now that I think about it, why not to rename centaurs to yaktaurs, give them 10 speed, and call it a day?

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Post Friday, 10th March 2017, 23:16

Re: centaur kiting nonsense

Shtopit wrote:Now that I think about it, why not to rename centaurs to yaktaurs, give them 10 speed, and call it a day?

Personally I don't mind a very powerful, fast race existing because it's good for new players to have the option to play something which has a lot of advantages. Or for moderately good players to try to streak with, etc. If you don't want to play them, just don't play them. Unlike an overpowered weapon or spell, there's no way that your player character can suddenly turn into a centaur mid game, so it doesn't bother me much.

They're definitely in what I consider the tier 1 races (Minotaur, VS, Centaur, DD), but unless we're trying to remove good races because they're good, I'd leave centaurs alone.
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Post Friday, 10th March 2017, 23:42

Re: centaur kiting nonsense

pseudopseudonymous wrote:Centaurs are not just fast, they're generically fast (nice misquote), which is nothing like how horses work. Hunters are big enough to outpace people if they want to. (big size, longer legs, faster speed. ...not fucking complicated)
So what? Tying speed to repeated moves in the same direction or implemented "facing" mechanics would be miserable in crawl. The only sort of speed that should exist in this game, as far as I'm concerned, is "generic" aka omnidirectional/not acceleration based speed.
pseudopseudonymous wrote:'scales' nitpick: 3 levels of tough skin is natural armor on the level of scales, not normal-ass horse skin. (no pun intended)
Ok, but again my whole point is that the flavor is less important than the impact on gameplay. If you criticized tough skin from a gameplay standpoint(why reduce centaur's AC via deformed body and low armor skill, and then increase it via an innate mut?) I probably wouldn't have an issue. but it doesn't really matter that much how tough or not tough real horse skin is.

pseudopseudonymous wrote:Oh one thing about the nitpicking, the activated ability isn't trash without armor. Where did I say that?

When you said it was "Very unsafe without barding." Unsafe=/=bad in a roguelike, unless you mean something very different with "unsafe" than what most people here would use it for!
If it was a free stun, why would it be unsafe? If it wasn't, why would anyone use it without a barding?

pseudopseudonymous wrote:"run away, turn around when you have large gaps between you and the enemy, shoot, turn around again, repeat".

NO

no...

nonononono

Prepare your position, shoot from there, move when enemies come close.
So basically exactly the same as what you quoted in terms of actions taken, just slightly different flavor? Not sure why this difference would upset you.
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Post Saturday, 11th March 2017, 03:11

Re: centaur kiting nonsense

mod note: this got ridiculous and I am locking it
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

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