Boot/glove/Helm/Cloak spawn rate too low

[warren]

The item spawn rate of boots/gloves/helm/cloak is too low now. Through many versions it was far too high so it is good that it was reduced, but in many runs now I am reaching D10 (clearing full levels) and still not having seen a single boot/glove/helm. I usually find a cloak somewhere by then, and MAYBE one of the others. But having a +0 non-ego version of each armor slot by D10 seems a reasonable target for itemization. I understand that the random nature of spawns makes it random, but perhaps a setting in between the current one (my kingdom for a hat) and the past one (clothing yard sale) could be tried. Thanks.

[amaril]

Why would the game be better if the player was guatanteed full aux slots by lair? Does the player need such a buff?

[warren]

If a class has high Armor skill, then it depends on armor. The game is balanced so that high armor skill comes at the expense of some other skill. Having armor spawn rates be so low that a class doesn't even reliably get +0 versions of armor means the classes with good armor skill are penalized relative to the other classes.

In my current game, I've cleared through D11 and the entire lair. I have found no gloves of any kind. I have found no shields of any kind (no bucklers, no shields, no large shields). I'm not saying I should have seen +2 ego versions by now, but that's 2/5 slots that haven't had a single item of any kind generated. I've played many games over the past 4 months and this type of scarcity is systematic.

[amaril]

Not finding aux armor hurts light-armor characters far more than heavy-armor characters.

[duvessa]

The item spawn rate of boots/gloves/helm/cloak is too low now. Through many versions it was far too high so it is good that it was reduced, but in many runs now I am reaching D10 (clearing full levels) and still not having seen a single boot/glove/helm. I usually find a cloak somewhere by then, and MAYBE one of the others. But having a +0 non-ego version of each armor slot by D10 seems a reasonable target for itemization. I understand that the random nature of spawns makes it random, but perhaps a setting in between the current one (my kingdom for a hat) and the past one (clothing yard sale) could be tried. Thanks.

The current one is the same as the past one.

[Rast]

While I don't think OP's complaint is truly a problem, I'd favor adding aux slot items to a few more early uniques. Especially the nastier ones. Incentivize the player to fight them.

[bel]

Perhaps this discussion might benefit from some data. I don't really have an opinion about whether it's too low or high. But we can use objstat to determine the expected number of items found. See this file for the latest numbers.

From the spreadsheet, I see, from D:1-10, you are expected to get (by summing up the AllNum column):

Cloak: 0.1 + 0.16 + 0.15 + 0.16 + 0.14 + 0.14 + 0.15 + 0.2 + 0.16 + 0.12 = 1.48
Hat: 0.02+0.01+0.02+0.02+0.01+0.02+0.01+0.06+0.05 + 0.05 = 0.27
Helmet: 0.07+0.19+0.16+0.14+0.09+0.1+0.11+0.11+0.12+0.1 = 1.19
Gloves: 0.09+0.07+0.08+0.11+0.13+0.09+0.15+0.13+0.12+0.11 = 1.08
Boots: 0.07+0.07+0.08+0.08+0.07+0.1+0.09+0.1+0.08+0.08 = 0.82

[ion_frigate]

The item spawn rate of boots/gloves/helm/cloak is too low now. Through many versions it was far too high so it is good that it was reduced, but in many runs now I am reaching D10 (clearing full levels) and still not having seen a single boot/glove/helm. I usually find a cloak somewhere by then, and MAYBE one of the others. But having a +0 non-ego version of each armor slot by D10 seems a reasonable target for itemization. I understand that the random nature of spawns makes it random, but perhaps a setting in between the current one (my kingdom for a hat) and the past one (clothing yard sale) could be tried. Thanks.

The current one is the same as the past one.

While the item spawn rates themselves may not have changed, remember that D:10 now is equivalent(ish) to pre-Depths D:18. Since the game is shorter, people are finding aux slot armor, on average, later in the game than they used to (unless item generation was increased to compensate - which I doubt, though I could be wrong).

I don't personally think anything needs be done about it, but I wanted to point out that there is something real going on here.

[prozacelf]

While I don't think OP's complaint is truly a problem, I'd favor adding aux slot items to a few more early uniques. Especially the nastier ones. Incentivize the player to fight them.

I do frequently fight Yiuf even when it's not a great idea just to get my hands on his sweet sweet cloak.

[PowerOfKaishin]

Why doesn't Joseph drop a hat?

[Sar]

remove aux slots

I do frequently fight Yiuf

I never fight Yiuf now that he has those new lines when you have the orb

every time he spawns it's my topmost priority to get him out of the dungeon alive on the orbrun

[VeryAngryFelid]

Maybe Yiuf should warn players about those lines, something like "Show me the orb, I will tell you something important".

[Sprucery]

You mean these lines?

  Code:

%%%%
orb Crazy Yiuf

@The_monster@ says, "Wait for me!"

@The_monster@ says, "You found it!"

@The_monster@ says, "Get me out of this place."

@The_monster@ says, "You came back for me."
%%%%

[njvack]

Wait, seriously? I am never killing that dude again.

[Gozigzag]

I still prefer to take natasha and her 2 animated corpses to the exit.

[Doesnt]

Why doesn't Joseph drop a hat?

No room in the structure. Monsters don't actually have an aux slot; the things that have them cheat and wear them in other slots. Robin wears her helmet in the shield slot. This won't work for Joseph because he wields a quarterstaff, so he'd have to take his hat off to fight in melee. He also can't use his body armor slot like Gastronok does because he has leather armor, and he's got a sling and bullets clogging his launcher and ammo slots.

In theory, if one wanted to continue this pattern of hackiness, it could go in the jewellery slot though.

[Rast]

Monsters don't actually have an aux slot; the things that have them cheat and wear them in other slots. Robin wears her helmet in the shield slot. This won't work for Joseph because he wields a quarterstaff, so he'd have to take his hat off to fight in melee.

I can't even.

[njvack]

This won't work for Joseph because he wields a quarterstaff, so he'd have to take his hat off to fight in melee.

Flavor could be that Joseph is doffing is cap to be polite.

Seriously though this thread, while silly, has yielded two of my favorite pieces of crawl knowledge ever.

[Sar]

I still prefer to take natasha and her 2 animated corpses to the exit.

I leave her alive too, she did nothing wrong.

[Airwolf]

Why doesn't Joseph drop a hat?

No room in the structure. Monsters don't actually have an aux slot; the things that have them cheat and wear them in other slots. Robin wears her helmet in the shield slot. This won't work for Joseph because he wields a quarterstaff, so he'd have to take his hat off to fight in melee. He also can't use his body armor slot like Gastronok does because he has leather armor, and he's got a sling and bullets clogging his launcher and ammo slots.

In theory, if one wanted to continue this pattern of hackiness, it could go in the jewellery slot though.

Feature request: make Joseph a Formicid.

[Quazifuji]

I still prefer to take natasha and her 2 animated corpses to the exit.

I leave her alive too, she did nothing wrong.

She attacked me on sight, though.

[TeshiAlair]

Regarding OP: I suck at this game and I still almost always have one, even two aux slots filled by Temple. Plus you have Robin and Yiuf.

Only thing I'd tweak is increasing the drop rate of hats vs helms, but that's greed on my part.

[warren]

Perhaps this discussion might benefit from some data. I don't really have an opinion about whether it's too low or high. But we can use objstat to determine the expected number of items found. See this file for the latest numbers.

From the spreadsheet, I see, from D:1-10, you are expected to get (by summing up the AllNum column):

Cloak: 0.1 + 0.16 + 0.15 + 0.16 + 0.14 + 0.14 + 0.15 + 0.2 + 0.16 + 0.12 = 1.48
Hat: 0.02+0.01+0.02+0.02+0.01+0.02+0.01+0.06+0.05 + 0.05 = 0.27
Helmet: 0.07+0.19+0.16+0.14+0.09+0.1+0.11+0.11+0.12+0.1 = 1.19
Gloves: 0.09+0.07+0.08+0.11+0.13+0.09+0.15+0.13+0.12+0.11 = 1.08
Boots: 0.07+0.07+0.08+0.08+0.07+0.1+0.09+0.1+0.08+0.08 = 0.82

Thanks, Bel, for providing hard data on this. I'm certain that the "new" aux armor spawn rate is different than what I remember, but I may be remembering back to a VERY old version since that's when I started playing.

[warren]

In my latest game, I have explored 15 levels of Dungeon, 3 levels of Snake, 2 levels of Orc, 4 levels of Lair with not a single pair of boots. No boots in stores, no boots!

[Sprucery]

I've won a 3-runer (DDAs) who had no boots in the end because the only pair generated was corroded in Zot (old corrosion). And that only pair was bought from a Bazaar. And I did Elf and Crypt too. And this was 0.14 when Lair had 8 levels, Crypt 5, Orc 4, Swamp and Spider 5 levels...

[warren]

In my most recent game, I have explored 15 levels of Dungeon, 6 levels of Lair, 2 levels of Orc and found 0 helms, 0 boots, and 0 gloves. The spawn rate is too low now.

Mod edit: moved from GDD.