idea: make 3rd rune identify everything once obtained


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Spider Stomper

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Post Thursday, 26th January 2017, 06:45

idea: make 3rd rune identify everything once obtained

Scrolls of identify and remove curse are usually abundant once you are able to enter Zot. For many characters and playstyles, they're abundant before then even.

They're also still necessary to carry around at all times, even on a 3-rune, as there are a bunch of glowing cloaks in Zot and random artifacts to worry about.

This would add flavor to the runes and minimize keystrokes in endgame on the chaff that is the ID game, while having minimal balance impact.

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Post Thursday, 26th January 2017, 10:17

Re: idea: make 3rd rune identify everything once obtained

4th rune removes curses, 5th rune removes food etc.? :)
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Post Thursday, 26th January 2017, 15:37

Re: idea: make 3rd rune identify everything once obtained

What if each rune had a specific buff to make rune order less autopilot?
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Post Thursday, 26th January 2017, 17:44

Re: idea: make 3rd rune identify everything once obtained

Or you could just remove the ID game like in hellcrawl.

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Post Thursday, 26th January 2017, 19:48

Re: idea: make 3rd rune identify everything once obtained

Sprucery wrote:4th rune removes curses, 5th rune removes food etc.? :)

And the Orb teleports you back to D:1.

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Post Monday, 30th January 2017, 13:59

Re: idea: make 3rd rune identify everything once obtained

Please remove identification and curses.
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Post Monday, 30th January 2017, 14:19

Re: idea: make 3rd rune identify everything once obtained

Seriously, everyone who thinks identification should stay should play hellcrawl. The early game is so much more fluid and fun.

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Post Monday, 30th January 2017, 14:45

Re: idea: make 3rd rune identify everything once obtained

I have tried hellcrawl, and I likr the ID minigame more.
I'm with tasonir on this one.

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Post Monday, 30th January 2017, 15:42

Re: idea: make 3rd rune identify everything once obtained

Item curses can be eliminated completely:
  1. Remove curses from all items. Negative enchantment can still spawn as currently.
  2. Change *Curse on artifacts to a property where unwields occasionally/often simply fail and waste a turn.
  3. Remove =Tele since the only purpose of its existence is to burn a ?RC.
  4. Give unbind item as a piety-cost ability to Ash (IIRC newAsh already has cursing an item as an ability instead of gifting curse item scrolls, right?). This is similar to how decks left item generation and became gifts of newNem, but there's no need for inventory hassle with Ash gifting ?RC because this ability doesn't need the same levels of tactical or strategic constraint, if at all.
And here's how identification can remain interesting while becoming less hassle:
  1. Randarts remain unidentified except by scroll or use-ID.
  2. Wands retain unknown charges and waste charges until identified via scroll or Evocations skill.
  3. All other items are fully identified.
  4. Identify scrolls can become rarer.
Use-ID of artifacts is risky because of bad properties such as *Drain and *Contam. Rarer ?ID would make whether to use-ID or not a strategic choice. Early cursed items before sufficient ?RC have been found and distortion are really the only risks with use-ID of mundane items, and small loss to pay to retain the interesting parts of the ID game while reducing tedium.
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Post Monday, 30th January 2017, 17:55

Re: idea: make 3rd rune identify everything once obtained

MainiacJoe wrote:Item curses can be eliminated completely:
  1. Remove curses from all items. Negative enchantment can still spawn as currently.
  2. Change *Curse on artifacts to a property where unwields occasionally/often simply fail and waste a turn.
  3. Remove =Tele since the only purpose of its existence is to burn a ?RC.
  4. Give unbind item as a piety-cost ability to Ash (IIRC newAsh already has cursing an item as an ability instead of gifting curse item scrolls, right?). This is similar to how decks left item generation and became gifts of newNem, but there's no need for inventory hassle with Ash gifting ?RC because this ability doesn't need the same levels of tactical or strategic constraint, if at all.
And here's how identification can remain interesting while becoming less hassle:
  1. Randarts remain unidentified except by scroll or use-ID.
  2. Wands retain unknown charges and waste charges until identified via scroll or Evocations skill.
  3. All other items are fully identified.
  4. Identify scrolls can become rarer.
Use-ID of artifacts is risky because of bad properties such as *Drain and *Contam. Rarer ?ID would make whether to use-ID or not a strategic choice. Early cursed items before sufficient ?RC have been found and distortion are really the only risks with use-ID of mundane items, and small loss to pay to retain the interesting parts of the ID game while reducing tedium.

None of the things you suggest retaining are the interesting parts of identification.
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Post Monday, 30th January 2017, 18:16

Re: idea: make 3rd rune identify everything once obtained

Siegurt wrote:
MainiacJoe wrote:And here's how identification can remain interesting while becoming less hassle:
  1. Randarts remain unidentified except by scroll or use-ID.
  2. Wands retain unknown charges and waste charges until identified via scroll or Evocations skill.
  3. All other items are fully identified.
  4. Identify scrolls can become rarer.
Use-ID of artifacts is risky because of bad properties such as *Drain and *Contam. Rarer ?ID would make whether to use-ID or not a strategic choice. Early cursed items before sufficient ?RC have been found and distortion are really the only risks with use-ID of mundane items, and small loss to pay to retain the interesting parts of the ID game while reducing tedium.

None of the things you suggest retaining are the interesting parts of identification.
Okay. So what do you think the interesting part of the ID game is? I hope it isn't the opportunity of getting stuck with a cursed negative-enchantment weapon on D:2.
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Post Monday, 30th January 2017, 22:26

Re: idea: make 3rd rune identify everything once obtained

MainiacJoe wrote:
Siegurt wrote:
MainiacJoe wrote:And here's how identification can remain interesting while becoming less hassle:
  1. Randarts remain unidentified except by scroll or use-ID.
  2. Wands retain unknown charges and waste charges until identified via scroll or Evocations skill.
  3. All other items are fully identified.
  4. Identify scrolls can become rarer.
Use-ID of artifacts is risky because of bad properties such as *Drain and *Contam. Rarer ?ID would make whether to use-ID or not a strategic choice. Early cursed items before sufficient ?RC have been found and distortion are really the only risks with use-ID of mundane items, and small loss to pay to retain the interesting parts of the ID game while reducing tedium.

None of the things you suggest retaining are the interesting parts of identification.
Okay. So what do you think the interesting part of the ID game is? I hope it isn't the opportunity of getting stuck with a cursed negative-enchantment weapon on D:2.

Yes, that is an example of something interesting (trwr with a cursed -2 blowgun stuck to my claw for 9 D levels was very interesting indeed)

Also potentially having an unidentified emerency consumable, and guessing which one it might be when trying to stay alive is interesting.
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Barkeep

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Post Tuesday, 31st January 2017, 00:21

Re: idea: make 3rd rune identify everything once obtained

What's interesting about either of those things, Siegurt? The former is a situation you can only get in if you purposefully play suboptimally (and "don't wield unidentified weapons" is hardly some Hypothetically Optimal Player behavior), while the latter is literally just "pick a card" (or "make a spoiler-informd guess at the right card based on your metagame knowledge") in a game with permadeath. Neither jives with the game's design philosophy.

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Post Tuesday, 31st January 2017, 03:37

Re: idea: make 3rd rune identify everything once obtained

archaeo wrote:What's interesting about either of those things, Siegurt? The former is a situation you can only get in if you purposefully play suboptimally (and "don't wield unidentified weapons" is hardly some Hypothetically Optimal Player behavior), while the latter is literally just "pick a card" (or "make a spoiler-informd guess at the right card based on your metagame knowledge") in a game with permadeath. Neither jives with the game's design philosophy.


In the former case, it was a "I just killed a bunch of kobolds, one of which had a blowgun" which I *thought* had been unwielded (It looked to me like all the kobolds attacked me in melee), but I was playing too fast and loose and didn't notice that it wasn't actually marked as 'uncursed'.

What was interesting about it was being stuck with a -2 blowgun for a long time and figuring out how to survive long enough to find a remove curse scroll (which I did, much, much later) there were a number of challenges in that game that wouldn't have occurred otherwise. Removing that possibility from the game entirely removes a situation that *when it comes up* is interesting (and yes, a hypothetically optimal player would never get into that situation) I would find it more interesting to find ways to make the possibility occur (infrequently) even in hypothetically optimal games.

The latter is interesting because while I can make some educated guesses about what I might have (and have a better than 50-50 chance of getting it right) I don't *know* and drinking an unidentified potion can have unintended consequences, leading me to play games I wouldn't otherwise play (I would never drink an identified potion of mutation, for example) and there are a number of consumables that can get me out of trouble in interesting ways (for example I read-id'd a summon scroll, lived through a turn, and swapped with a summon critter to block a hit that might have killed me, whereas if everything was Id'd I probably would've used a more certain blink scroll, and had a less interesting result to the combat)

In short I find it 'interesting' when something that you didn't plan for, and didn't expect, and wouldn't have take an action that resulted in you being in that situation if you'd known about it, you would never have gotten yourself into intentionally, provokes you to play a game that's got a different set of challenges than those you'd face in a typical game where you know about and control every variable.
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Post Tuesday, 31st January 2017, 06:31

Re: idea: make 3rd rune identify everything once obtained

If you used blink scroll, you would use summoning scroll in next fight.
Quaff-ID potions is almost never optimal so should be ignored like wielding that blowgun IMHO.
Id is never interesting to me nowadays, instead it is always annoying because I have to check how many scrolls I have after picking one (I always read-id scrolls when i have 2 of them, I even don't bother going to stairs or saving mapping for new levels).
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Post Tuesday, 31st January 2017, 21:37

Re: idea: make 3rd rune identify everything once obtained

VeryAngryFelid wrote:If you used blink scroll, you would use summoning scroll in next fight.
Quaff-ID potions is almost never optimal so should be ignored like wielding that blowgun IMHO.
Id is never interesting to me nowadays, instead it is always annoying because I have to check how many scrolls I have after picking one (I always read-id scrolls when i have 2 of them, I even don't bother going to stairs or saving mapping for new levels).

I use blink scrolls infrequently enough that i rarely, if ever, run out once they are identified.
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Post Tuesday, 31st January 2017, 21:41

Re: idea: make 3rd rune identify everything once obtained

Siegurt wrote:I use blink scrolls infrequently enough that i rarely, if ever, run out once they are identified.


Disable autopickup for them then ;)
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Post Tuesday, 31st January 2017, 21:42

Re: idea: make 3rd rune identify everything once obtained

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
Siegurt wrote:I use blink scrolls infrequently enough that i rarely, if ever, run out once they are identified.


Disable autopickup for them then ;)

I am not sure why i would do that or what your point is....
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Post Tuesday, 31st January 2017, 21:50

Re: idea: make 3rd rune identify everything once obtained

Siegurt wrote:I am not sure why i would do that or what your point is....


Ok, then a serious answer.
Either you are a much better player than me or you play too easy combos.
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Post Tuesday, 31st January 2017, 22:00

Re: idea: make 3rd rune identify everything once obtained

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
Siegurt wrote:I am not sure why i would do that or what your point is....


Ok, then a serious answer.
Either you are a much better player than me or you play too easy combos.

Well, i might also be more heavily reliant on other means of escape, possibly taking more risk in the process (perhaps you are better and just more risk averse than i am)
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Post Tuesday, 31st January 2017, 23:14

Re: idea: make 3rd rune identify everything once obtained

Siegurt wrote:Well, i might also be more heavily reliant on other means of escape, possibly taking more risk in the process (perhaps you are better and just more risk averse than i am)

Yeah well the question is: do you die often with blink scrolls in inventory? :)
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Post Wednesday, 1st February 2017, 01:04

Re: idea: make 3rd rune identify everything once obtained

Sprucery wrote:
Siegurt wrote:Well, i might also be more heavily reliant on other means of escape, possibly taking more risk in the process (perhaps you are better and just more risk averse than i am)

Yeah well the question is: do you die often with blink scrolls in inventory? :)

Hm, most of the time that is a case of *tabtabtabohwhat'sthatonthetvtabtabdead*
once in a while it's "Hm, this critter can't possibly hit me for <insert my max hps here>, oh, hm, I guess he can"
and sometimes it's "let's teleport out of here, *walks backwards*, *teleports to other side of creature he's trying to escape*, *dies*"
or "I can certainly take the two steps around this corner out of LOS before that lich LCS's me... oh, no wait" (Or "Oh no! that spot wasn't out of LOS of that Brimstone fiend!")

I could also very well be overly-conserving my blink scrolls.
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