Bring back Poisonous Cloud

[papilio]

Why devs remove it because of new weaker spell?

We have no problem to having Stone Arrow&Iron Shot&LCS, Throw Flame&BoF, Throw Frost&BoC, etc.

[NhorianScum]

The funny thing is this is a direct buff to Pcloud.

[removeelyvilon]

It's really weird; p. cloud was finally in a good spot at level 5 and worth considering over f. cloud and a few days later they remove it?

And it would be simple to make this new spell not using a cloud.

Also having 2 low level poison school clouds in the same starting book isn't weird? I realize they don't serve the same purpose but just... why a cloud? Clouds literally can't overlap.

Also as OP stated many spells are basically upgrades of lower level spells...

And having 4 low level cloud spells isn't "redundant"?

And sting, being logically the first thing to address, hasn't been touched at all.

Development not influenced by tavern memes, huh.

I really can't wrap my head around this. But no use in mourning; Gehenna freezes over before a change gets reverted.

[Sar]

PCloud was my favorite. RIP!

[Lasty]

I don't really see how this plays into any taverns memes. My feeling was that pcloud wasn't in a particularly good place and felt really unnecessary when OTR basically did the same thing but better.

[papilio]

I guessed that OTR's poison dot damage was significantly weaker than PC's (not sure about this yet)...
Hmm, okay, sounds reasonable.

[Croases]

VM doesn't really need another way to poison things early on, since despite Sting being notoriously unreliable, you can kite things around to recast it until it does the trick. What VM does need is a way to deal with black mambas/spiny frogs in lair, which are too common and too fast to fall into the "you don't need to fight this" category, and require you to pick up a weapon/alternative spells while nearly every other start can just keep on doing their thing well into late D.

I'd prefer if the poisoner's handbook got an asphyxiation spell, the damage type is rare (open design space!) and both thematically and mechanically similar to poison (damage over time that can't affect undead and constructs), and a monster engulf effect (involving say, a 25% chance to fumble spells) would be a good way to improve poison magic's otherwise barren support kit.

[papilio]

What VM does need is a way to deal with black mambas/spiny frogs in lair, which are too common and too fast to fall into the "you don't need to fight this" category, and require you to pick up a weapon/alternative spells while nearly every other start can just keep on doing their thing well into late D.

Kinda off-topic, but this is why I think VM as a badly designed background.

[Utis]

All this hate VM are getting finally made me try one. I think they're rather good. Getting some weapon after MephCloud is at ~30% and you're essentially playing an Assassin with MephCloud and unlimited ammo. Nothing to sneeze at.

"Hit with Weapon" is a great level 0 spell. It's dual school and short range, but it's a guaranteed find, few things effectively resist it, its spell power scales very well and it doesn't cost any mana.

My feeling was that pcloud wasn't in a particularly good place and felt really unnecessary when OTR basically did the same thing but better.

I think that pcloud was attractive to characters who came to it by the air route. OTR never stuck out to me as something a non-VM would want; it's only level 4, though, so maybe I should give it a try?

[duvessa]

Poisonous cloud was removed because it's redundant with freezing cloud. It wasn't removed because of the new spell - it would be closer to the truth to say that the new spell was added because poisonous cloud was removed.

It was kind of funny watching a spell go from level 6 to level 5 to level 6 to level 5, though.