The Tavern

So, using the word "Jihad" (in a non-discriminating manner I might add) is wrong, but substituting it with another word from a real religion that has also negative implications is okay?

Clap. clap. clap.

Code:: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAryFIuRxmQ

Oh and I better hope you are at least consequential and remove any number of features that could be considered offensive, like TSO, Ely, Zin, Necromancy, demons, holy monsters, women, you could go on endlessly.

"Jihad" is a politically loaded word these days and Crawl doesn't have
any intention of commenting on the real world.

Yeah, using the word "Jihad" is wrong, but having a whole religion that is unmistakingly, even with water walking just to make it clear, a twisted and perverted version of christianity and the worshippers of that caricature of christianity are war-mongering, violent racists that see their race as superior than others. Yeah, no problems with that at all. So much for not commenting on the real world.

Oh, and since you brought up politics, great job of playing right into the hands of extremist groups by undermining our own freedom of expression. That is exactly what extremist groups want.

An no, this is in no way, shape, or form implying that OP of the original thread (which was locked, which I also find questionable) has any part in this.

Yeah what can I say, I am not thrilled about this change.

Not every zealot is a member of the Zealots. Or, like, none of them, because that political and religious (in that order) organization ceased to exist almost 2000 years ago.

Can we just not care about any of this?

1. That's just what Zealots did, kill and force their allies to fight desperately and be killed with them (see Jerusalem, 70 AD). Which is oddly similar to what the sword does.
2. I don't know of any Jew who calls himself a Zealot.
3. Unlike with Jihad, there is a different word to say the good meaning of the Greek word (zealous), while zealot has just a negative meaning. The only situation in which the word might be used in a non-negative, non-political way is with the Apostle Simon the Zealot, in which case the word Zealot could be a crystallized form (actually meaning zealous) or a mistranslation (in which case it would have meant "From the city of Cana").

As for Beogh, it seemed to me more like a deranged "what if" religion, which has superficial similarities to Christianity, but actually holds the exact opposite views. Looking now at the titles you get, however, the joke goes far enough to be offensive.

But if the complains of a single Muslim are enough to remove a single word related to his religion, then it's worth thinking of removing words like "Evangelist", "Apostle" and "Messiah", as well as the water walking, because they are real world references to a real world religion, whose beliefs aren't any less worthy of respect than any other.

I think Zealot fits well with Tavern's PC culture.

Can we at least use a cool alt right meme and make it the sword of Deus Vult

removeelyvilon wrote:Oh, and since you brought up politics, great job of playing right into the hands of extremist groups by undermining our own freedom of expression. That is exactly what extremist groups want.

This is just silly, but it illustrates well why removing the phrase "jihad" was a good choice -- this poster seems to believe that not actively offending Muslims for no particular reason is going to somehow help "extremist groups" "undermin[e] our freedom of expression". He most likely absorbed these beliefs because in many Western societies right now there's been a pattern of equating "terror" and "extremism" with being Muslim, as if non-Muslims are incapable of being extremists or employing terroristic tacics or restricting freedom of expression. Crawl doesn't need to and shouldn't reinforce that warped narrative.

In this case, the poster has a motivating set of beliefs that prompt him to want to limit the devs' freedom of expression by insisting that they express themselves with the word "Jihad" rather than a similar word that doesn't play into a common pattern of discrimination, but he wants to blame this demand on hypothetical, implicitly-Muslim "extremists" who would somehow gain benefits from Crawl.

So you're saying his logic goes like this:

Muslim extremists employ terroristic tactics
Crawl devs don't want to offend Muslim extremists because of their terroristic tactics
Therefore, crawl devs are renaming "Sword of Jihad" due to the terroristic tactics of Muslim extremists

Whereas your logic is:

Muslim extremists employ terroristic tactics
However, many other non-Muslim extremist groups do this as well
There is an unfair association between extremism/terror and Muslims
Crawl devs don't want to reinforce this association by heeding the desires of those making this association (to not rename Sword of Jihad)
Therefore, crawl devs are renaming Sword of Jihad due to the terroristic tactics of Muslim extremists (which leads to the unfair perception of extremism being uniquely Muslim [which leads devs to want to defiantly make a stand against this])

He was still right, your justification just used more steps.

Incorrect. You're exhibiting the same bias: assuming that you associate extremist violence with Muslims because Muslims commit a lot of extremist violence.

The logic goes like this:
* The old name was singling out one religious group consisting of ~1.6 billion people and associating it with zealotry.
* There was no reason to be a dick to those 1.6 billion people, so we might as well not.
Notice that there's absolutely no reference to actual extremism in that logic.

It's just a search-replace for a purely cosmetic change which took 5 minutes. Some dev wanted to do it, so it happened. DCSS development is not a democracy, so silly comments about freedom of expression should get the respect they deserve.

Any attempt to over-think this or try to find consistency (see: High Elves) is doomed from the start, not to mention meaningless. It also has little to do with religion or politics, but merely represents a choice made by volunteers who create a free game in their spare time. You want your "freedom of expression", you can create your own fork, or submit a patch reverting the change (which may or may not be accepted - you can guess the result).

sage

Lasty wrote:This is just silly, but it illustrates well why removing the phrase "jihad" was a good choice -- this poster seems to believe that not actively offending Muslims for no particular reason is going to somehow help "extremist groups" "undermin[e] our freedom of expression".

No, it represents how you devs will blindly zeal for something, being unable to differentiate a argument from a joke, a bait or a troll. Everybody who at some point found sword of jihad on their game thought "hum, that seems provocative, BUT, it is a VIDEO-GAME", while someone who hangs on tavern saw that sword and thought "someday, someone will make a post to change its name, and IT WILL be changed".

Lasty wrote:He most likely absorbed these beliefs because in many Western societies right now there's been a pattern of equating "terror" and "extremism" with being Muslim, as if non-Muslims are incapable of being extremists or employing terroristic tacics or restricting freedom of expression. Crawl doesn't need to and shouldn't reinforce that warped narrative.

its not equated, its CAUSED BY. But im not gonna discuss that here.

Lasty wrote:In this case, the poster has a motivating set of beliefs that prompt him to want to limit the devs' freedom of expression by insisting that they express themselves with the word "Jihad" rather than a similar word that doesn't play into a common pattern of discrimination, but he wants to blame this demand on hypothetical, implicitly-Muslim "extremists" who would somehow gain benefits from Crawl.

No, he just wants you do to what hes telling you to do, its called empowerment, like when arrhy makes a post about adding runed doors to crazy yiuf's house, the same guy who thinks shafts are fun.

if you are mad about this change you need to step outside for a bit honestly

dynast wrote:No, it represents how you devs will blindly zeal for something

OMG zeal like in Zealots

There's quite enough "jihad" in real life, I want none of that in a fantasy roguelike, thanks.

This thread is being used primarily to defame Muslims, so I'm locking it.

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