Revert Ogre apt change


If it doesn't fit anywhere else, it belongs here. Also, come here if you just need to get hammered.

Slime Squisher

Posts: 395

Joined: Wednesday, 6th July 2016, 02:40

Post Wednesday, 18th January 2017, 05:15

Revert Ogre apt change

Because ogres are totally bland now.
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/papilio.html

Done 15-rune wins with all playable species, backgrounds, gods!

For this message the author papilio has received thanks: 4
Cimanyd, Leszczynek, NhorianScum, Scalding Steam

Halls Hopper

Posts: 80

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd January 2017, 21:47

Post Wednesday, 18th January 2017, 05:18

Re: Revert Ogre apt change

Don't you prefer a very high HP Deep Elf more than a Troll with different melee?

Slime Squisher

Posts: 395

Joined: Wednesday, 6th July 2016, 02:40

Post Wednesday, 18th January 2017, 05:22

Re: Revert Ogre apt change

They are nowhere close to high HP DE and were not have been close to Tr with maces.

As High-HP casters, we already have Draconians, a much more interesting species, so Ogres have no reason to exist now.
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/papilio.html

Done 15-rune wins with all playable species, backgrounds, gods!

Halls Hopper

Posts: 80

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd January 2017, 21:47

Post Wednesday, 18th January 2017, 05:29

Re: Revert Ogre apt change

papilio wrote:As High-HP casters, we already have Draconians


Humans have about the same HP too and basically have the same spell apts with a Draconian so should they be scrapped too?

Slime Squisher

Posts: 395

Joined: Wednesday, 6th July 2016, 02:40

Post Wednesday, 18th January 2017, 05:33

Re: Revert Ogre apt change

ONIchinchin wrote:
papilio wrote:As High-HP casters, we already have Draconians


Humans have about the same HP too and basically have the same spell apts with a Draconian so should they be scrapped too?


Human is the most boring species in this game.
But I don't think they should be axed, because they are "flat standard" of the game.
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/papilio.html

Done 15-rune wins with all playable species, backgrounds, gods!

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 268

Joined: Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 09:32

Post Wednesday, 18th January 2017, 06:55

Re: Revert Ogre apt change

#SavetheOgres2016

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1667

Joined: Saturday, 11th October 2014, 06:12

Location: Brazil. RS, Santa Cruz do Sul.

Post Wednesday, 18th January 2017, 12:47

Re: Revert Ogre apt change

Well, humans can wear armor while ogres can wear dragon scales just to hammer down even more how similar to draconians they are.
You shall never see my color again.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 224

Joined: Monday, 19th November 2012, 04:56

Post Wednesday, 18th January 2017, 13:13

Re: Revert Ogre apt change

always hitting things with giant clubs is so exciting

Slime Squisher

Posts: 395

Joined: Wednesday, 6th July 2016, 02:40

Post Wednesday, 18th January 2017, 13:36

Re: Revert Ogre apt change

RBrandon wrote:always hitting things with giant clubs is so exciting



Ogres were-
before the change : boring species with at least capability of using GSCs
after the change : boring species with nothing special


they had been boring as well, but the change made them even worse.
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/papilio.html

Done 15-rune wins with all playable species, backgrounds, gods!

For this message the author papilio has received thanks:
Scalding Steam

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1667

Joined: Saturday, 11th October 2014, 06:12

Location: Brazil. RS, Santa Cruz do Sul.

Post Wednesday, 18th January 2017, 13:55

Re: Revert Ogre apt change

They were also good at throwing stuff, which is now the best thing they can do.
You shall never see my color again.

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 268

Joined: Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 09:32

Post Wednesday, 18th January 2017, 15:26

Re: Revert Ogre apt change

Pretty sure big shield + big rock has always been the optimal Ogre build unless you're worshiping trog. Eveningstar/Morningstar is already overkill off ogre str. -3 spells apts did not even remotely impede ogre's from picking up utility spellsets with light int invest and conjurations are pretty worthless when you have the dual school spell "throw big rock".

Ogre spellcaster starts/Warrior mage starts were actually a pretty fun hybrid on par with demigod.

The flavor fuckery of Ogres specializing in polearms is just disgusting.

Spiked apts are more fun to play with.
User avatar

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1192

Joined: Friday, 18th April 2014, 01:41

Post Wednesday, 18th January 2017, 16:48

Re: Revert Ogre apt change

why not just revert the mace apt change? when you selected ogre at the start screen before you did so because you wanted to use a gsc. i don't get why seemingly no one but the developers and a few others buy into this "weapon choice is a meaningful and interesting decision" meme. honestly ask yourself "how often do I change weapon classes from my starting weapon class?" I bet it's not that often.
remove food

For this message the author tabstorm has received thanks: 4
Cimanyd, NhorianScum, Scalding Steam, Ultraviolent4

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 268

Joined: Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 09:32

Post Wednesday, 18th January 2017, 16:53

Re: Revert Ogre apt change

Weapon choice is meaningful in the sense of, one hander+shield+throwing vs 2 hander + launcher, and fast vs slow but that's already self contained in every weapon branch but polearms and UAC. From what I can tell it's mostly in-game as a way to give different races different feels in combat along with somewhat varied skilling choices without resorting to obnoxious gimmics like fucksforsaken hop.

Edit: Isn't the large caster race Naga. I mean they play more as borderline-indestructible suspiciously sneaky turrets than the traditional kitey mage, but they're still a thing. They're also... an actual large race?
User avatar

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1192

Joined: Friday, 18th April 2014, 01:41

Post Wednesday, 18th January 2017, 19:42

Re: Revert Ogre apt change

if anything the function of the weapon skill system is to restrict choice rather than encourage "interesting" decisions, imo. It basically makes 90% of the weapons that spawn on the ground floor trash, since one generally doesn't want to use a new weapon class unless something remarkably good spawned and you have cross training. But even this is rare. Since weapons are not especially differentiated in use, I can only conclude that either it was desirable to not have players picking up and using the "best" weapon they found on the floor (where is the decision in that), or the skill system was ported from Nethack without much thought. Given that many bad features of crawl are there because they were originally ported from Nethack without much thought, I'm going to guess it was the latter. nethack truly was a mistake...

Anyway, I don't think this idea that "We must force a decision on weapon class!" is really one of value. Really, how much can you differentiate bumping into enemies, especially in Crawl where you have big numbers, base damage, enchantment and brand dominate, and the marginal value of stat points to damage dealt is low?
remove food

For this message the author tabstorm has received thanks:
Cimanyd
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4345

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd October 2013, 07:56

Post Wednesday, 18th January 2017, 19:57

Re: Revert Ogre apt change

tabstorm wrote:or the skill system was ported from Nethack without much thought. Given that many bad features of crawl are there because they were originally ported from Nethack without much thought, I'm going to guess it was the latter.

I don't think Nethack even had skills at the time Linley created the Crawl skill system.

e: Well, Nethack 3.2.0 was released in 1996 and it had weapon proficiencies... so I don't know.

e2: But in any case Nethack's skill system was quite different from that of Crawl.
...MiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWrSpWz{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}
DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu
{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWr
User avatar

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 253

Joined: Monday, 20th June 2016, 15:27

Post Wednesday, 18th January 2017, 20:20

Re: Revert Ogre apt change

just make it +1 or 0 at least

For this message the author removeelyvilon has received thanks: 3
Cimanyd, Doesnt, dracos369
User avatar

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1192

Joined: Friday, 18th April 2014, 01:41

Post Wednesday, 18th January 2017, 20:25

Re: Revert Ogre apt change

Why not back to +3? Did anyone except duvessa think Ogres were overpowered (who would probably argue mummies are overpowered because crawl is so trivial) before this change? If anything, since ogres are often stuck in robes for much of the game, having the old maces apt back could open up a melee/conj playstyle that is bad for other races because of armor constraints (armor good, spells not good enough), that seems to be considered desirable judging by the emphasis on versatile races in recent additions.
remove food

For this message the author tabstorm has received thanks: 8
Cimanyd, Deso, dynast, NhorianScum, papilio, pedritolo, Sar, Ultraviolent4

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 268

Joined: Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 09:32

Post Wednesday, 18th January 2017, 20:33

Re: Revert Ogre apt change

tabstorm wrote:Why not back to +3? Did anyone except duvessa think Ogres were overpowered (who would probably argue mummies are overpowered because crawl is so trivial) before this change? If anything, since ogres are often stuck in robes for much of the game, having the old maces apt back could open up a melee/conj playstyle that is bad for other races because of armor constraints (armor good, spells not good enough), that seems to be considered desirable judging by the emphasis on versatile races in recent additions.


This actually worked on old ogre. If you stayed full spells it played a lot like demigod... except actually fun and without the midgame agony.

Big rock just exists so there was no real reason to go heavily into conj, even OgFE caps out around the Cflame/IFlame/Sflame combo.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8775

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Wednesday, 18th January 2017, 21:18

Re: Revert Ogre apt change

if you dont want weapon class choice then you should remove weapon classes, not give lopsided weapon apts to an arbitrary number of species

turns out devs want weapon class choice! imagine that! i never could have guessed that the years of work trying to balance and differentiate weapon classes might mean that devs want weapon classes to be interesting!

For this message the author duvessa has received thanks: 3
gammafunk, Lasty, nago
User avatar

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 253

Joined: Monday, 20th June 2016, 15:27

Post Wednesday, 18th January 2017, 21:46

Re: Revert Ogre apt change

if you dont want weapon class choice then you should remove weapon classes, not give lopsided weapon apts to an arbitrary number of species


this is actually a good idea

For this message the author removeelyvilon has received thanks:
nago
User avatar

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1192

Joined: Friday, 18th April 2014, 01:41

Post Wednesday, 18th January 2017, 21:47

Re: Revert Ogre apt change

To be clear, we need to distinguish between choices in weapon class function and choices in resource allocation.

Do characters make in-game (as opposed to pregame) choices based on the function of a weapon class? Not very often. I can only think of summoners using polearms to reach to attack behind summons. Players don't often change to Long Blades because it has riposte, for example. Why? Because, once the player has found a decent (not floor trash) weapon, typically in the starting class (but not always for a non-weapon start) the power of a given weapon mostly comes from investment, in the form of both experience and enchant scrolls, not the ability the weapon has, so the value of the secondary ability at the margin is small compared to the XP/enchant investment previously used.

Assuming for the sake of argument you are a Mage background and trying to pick a weapon class, not being previously hamstrung to a starting weapon type, are you going to pick a weapon class based on what its function is? No, you are picking whatever has the fucking elec brand on it and has a decent amount base damage. Overall, I think we can conclude that few meaningful choices are made in-game with regards to the function of weapon classes. Pre-game is another matter, since players who want to use cleaving, or riposte, or a gsc or whatever might pick their race accordingly.

Do players make choices in-game based on experience allocation in weapons? Yes, the decision is most often "don't change weapon classes", though there are exceptions, usually involving cross training and that damn elec brand again... I actually did change weapon classes in my last game, because I had cross-training from axes (which I always use out of laziness and liking of button mashing) and found a demon trident... of elec, and had no other decent axes.
This is what I was saying earlier, where in practice the function of the weapon skill system is to restrict choice in weapons, since the power of a given weapon comes from enchant, brand, base type, and XP investment. So the actual decision that has to be made is: Should I start investing experience/enchant scrolls in a new weapon class for no returns for some amount of time? Usually the answer is "no", but occasionally it is "yes."

So the weapon skill system mostly creates decisions in XP investment and resource allocation. But the actual function of different classes leads to few decisions of any real import, as players who want a different special-weapon-trick will often pick accordingly at the start screen. Aside from reaching, the different weapon class abilities don't change melee tactics in a substantial way.

I personally could care less about whether there are weapon apts or not. Assuming they continue to exist, their function is in practice a form of power level.
remove food

For this message the author tabstorm has received thanks: 10
Cimanyd, Elitist, nago, NhorianScum, papilio, removeelyvilon, Scalding Steam, Ultraviolent4, Vajrapani, zackoid

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 276

Joined: Sunday, 6th November 2016, 19:19

Post Wednesday, 18th January 2017, 22:40

Re: Revert Ogre apt change

RBrandon wrote:always hitting things with giant clubs is so exciting


It's an ascii/tiles based game and either way you're still bumping against things until they die or you die, it literally does not fucking matter if your beatstick of choice is called a 'giant club' or 'spear' or 'dagger'.

Man, playing an ogre with polearms is so much more **differentiated** than playing one with maces, however will I thank the devs?
16/26 on the way to GreaterOctopode (Win all backgrounds as an Octopode)

Progress so far : OpFi, OpGl, OpWn, OpAr, OpCK, OpMo, OpBe, OpHu, OpVM, OpAM, OpWr, OpFE, OpEE, OpNe, OpTm, OpSk

Sar

User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6418

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48

Post Wednesday, 18th January 2017, 22:48

Re: Revert Ogre apt change

It literally makes the game because imagining my @ smashing stuff with an enormous log is so much more satisfying.

For this message the author Sar has received thanks: 3
dynast, nago, Scalding Steam

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1667

Joined: Saturday, 11th October 2014, 06:12

Location: Brazil. RS, Santa Cruz do Sul.

Post Wednesday, 18th January 2017, 23:42

Re: Revert Ogre apt change

The dark maul is the only weapon in the game with sound.
You shall never see my color again.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6341

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Thursday, 19th January 2017, 00:54

Re: Revert Ogre apt change

tabstorm wrote:Players don't often change to Long Blades because it has riposte, for example.

I pick long blades for most of my conjurer-types, because it might hit do damage to (adjacent) critters when I blast them with spells, as opposed to all other types of weapons which don't. (This is one of the reasons why I liked HE)
Spoiler: show
This high quality signature has been hidden for your protection. To unlock it's secret, send 3 easy payments of $9.99 to me, by way of your nearest theta band or ley line. Complete your transmission by midnight tonight for a special free gift!

For this message the author Siegurt has received thanks: 2
dracos369, nago

Halls Hopper

Posts: 80

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd January 2017, 21:47

Post Thursday, 19th January 2017, 03:27

Re: Revert Ogre apt change

tabstorm wrote:Assuming you are a Mage background and trying to pick a weapon class


But I don't invest on weapon skills at all. It's clearly unoptimal if you're going to waste exp on a skill that is only used if you made a mistake of running out of MP/not killing every threat in LoS before you run out of MP and forced to melee'ing with poor AC; that's two situations that any player can comfortably manage to avoid. Only staves can bypass this because of elemental enhancer staves but it's still a no-brainer to not invest anything in it if you don't find one.
User avatar

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 30

Joined: Friday, 11th November 2016, 02:35

Post Thursday, 19th January 2017, 13:16

Re: Revert Ogre apt change

Given this is a single player game, I wouldn't mind seeing Ogres as "easy/strong" race that sacrifices armor for a good mix of aptitudes.
So why not just having the increase mace without losing anything? (or maybe reducing XP affinity slightly)

Spider Stomper

Posts: 242

Joined: Friday, 17th April 2015, 16:22

Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 05:36

Re: Revert Ogre apt change

i want to know why ogres were given 9 base int

this is higher than humans which is confusing given they're still apparently "mostly seen as brutes" and are almost entirely martial enemies in the wild

like i disagree with everything else about the changes strongly but this is just insane to me? at this point rename them to basajaun or something since they're clearly not the giant club-wielding punks roaming the dungeon

For this message the author Doesnt has received thanks: 3
Cimanyd, NhorianScum, papilio
User avatar

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 273

Joined: Monday, 23rd November 2015, 23:18

Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 08:34

Re: Revert Ogre apt change

Doesnt wrote:at this point rename them to basajaun or something since they're clearly not the giant club-wielding punks roaming the dungeon


I've been affectionately calling the Ogre Mage (OM) for a while.
duvessa wrote:teleportitis is annoying but i dont think you could ever convince me it is dangerous, let alone crippling


duvessa wrote:DCSS Go: jump down the nearest manhole and fully explore the sewers before you go back out
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4345

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd October 2013, 07:56

Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 10:12

Re: Revert Ogre apt change

FR: rename Ogre to Ogre-Mage
...MiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWrSpWz{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}
DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu
{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWr

For this message the author Sprucery has received thanks: 2
Cimanyd, Elitist
User avatar

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1662

Joined: Saturday, 18th June 2016, 13:57

Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 11:10

Re: Revert Ogre apt change

Call it Orgrasm. Short for Ogres Are Smart.
I Feel the Need--the Need for Beer
Spoiler: show
3DSBeTr 15DSFiRu 3DSMoNe 3FoHuGo 3TrArOk 3HOFEVe 3MfGlOk 4GrEEVe 3BaIEChei 3HuMoOka 3MiWnQaz 3VSFiAsh 3DrTmMakh 3DSCKXom 3OgMoOka 3NaFiOka 3FoFiOka 3MuFEVeh 3CeHuOka 3TrMoTSO 3DEFESif 3DSMoOka 3DSFiOka

For this message the author Shtopit has received thanks:
NhorianScum

Spider Stomper

Posts: 217

Joined: Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 00:52

Post Tuesday, 24th January 2017, 05:08

Re: Revert Ogre apt change

I do not contest changing their playstyle from SMOrc SMOrc SMOrc to "maybe get a weapon in between giant club and mace".
I'm with tasonir on this one.
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1757

Joined: Monday, 14th October 2013, 01:05

Post Tuesday, 24th January 2017, 15:43

Re: Revert Ogre apt change

I would sincerely like to see weapon skills changed to just "one handed weapons" and "2 handed weapons", which crosstrain

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1822

Joined: Thursday, 31st May 2012, 15:45

Post Tuesday, 24th January 2017, 20:53

Re: Revert Ogre apt change

I'm late to this party, but with troll claws and ogre M&F -1, why have giant clubs and GSC in the game at all? Give early dungeon ogres polearms and staves, and ettins et. al. can keep their great maces (by the time you meet them great mace is no longer an Early Good Item).
Won (52). Remaining (15): 5 species: Ba, Fe, Mu, Na, Op; 5 Backgrounds: AM, Wr, Su, AE, Ar; 5 gods: Jiyv, newNem, WJC, newSif, newFedh

For this message the author MainiacJoe has received thanks: 2
Cimanyd, papilio
User avatar

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1662

Joined: Saturday, 18th June 2016, 13:57

Post Tuesday, 24th January 2017, 20:58

Re: Revert Ogre apt change

MainiacJoe wrote:I'm late to this party, but with troll claws and ogre M&F -1, why have giant clubs and GSC in the game at all? Give early dungeon ogres polearms and staves, and ettins et. al. can keep their great maces (by the time you meet them great mace is no longer an Early Good Item).

♪ Let Formicids wield giant weapons if they leave the shield ♫
I Feel the Need--the Need for Beer
Spoiler: show
3DSBeTr 15DSFiRu 3DSMoNe 3FoHuGo 3TrArOk 3HOFEVe 3MfGlOk 4GrEEVe 3BaIEChei 3HuMoOka 3MiWnQaz 3VSFiAsh 3DrTmMakh 3DSCKXom 3OgMoOka 3NaFiOka 3FoFiOka 3MuFEVeh 3CeHuOka 3TrMoTSO 3DEFESif 3DSMoOka 3DSFiOka
User avatar

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 273

Joined: Monday, 23rd November 2015, 23:18

Post Tuesday, 24th January 2017, 22:21

Re: Revert Ogre apt change

Shtopit wrote:♪ Let Formicids wield giant weapons if they leave the shield ♫

They'd be better at using them than Ogres, that's for sure.
duvessa wrote:teleportitis is annoying but i dont think you could ever convince me it is dangerous, let alone crippling


duvessa wrote:DCSS Go: jump down the nearest manhole and fully explore the sewers before you go back out

Return to Crazy Yiuf's Corner

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.