Will all melee weapon classes gain special abilities?

[stoneychips]

I'm wondering if with the addition of Riposte to long blades, other classes will all have something in the pipe...

Let's see, short blades have stabbing bonuses and polearms have reach... Maces don't have much but they have some easy training and useful versus hydrae, not sure if that's enough to balance Riposte.

So in particular, would Staves be gaining abilities later?

It might be fun if Staves had a chance to block or temporarily "trip" (perhaps a one turn Confuse effect) with a probability similar to however riposte is calculated.

[MainiacJoe]

M&F has the "special ability" of being big. Staves have the "special ability" of being XP-efficient. I think Riposte rounds out the categories nicely; LBl was not very distinguishable from M&F previously.

[Elitist]

M&F is generally the biggest, baddest weapons you can hold in any class. They also happen to be the most well rounded. Morningstars have 13 base damage, which is more than enough to win a game with, not to mention they're common enough. Eveningstars are overkill. Whips work great with additive brands and the mace will take you out of the early game consistently with its good accuracy and damage. They remind me of the short/longblade combo but without the heavier experience sink and the bonus effects.

Staves are exp efficient and encompass some really cool magical staffs that're sometimes useful.

[Siegurt]

Its funny, once upon a time axes were big, then swords, now maces

[Shtopit]

I don't like riposte. I think it's too much like cleaving in its effects, and too similar to the Minotaur's compulsive headbutting. I think parry would have been better (or at least more unique), although I can see the overlap with shields. Riposte good from a gameplay point of view because it kills pop corn without bothering you (which is also something I really appreciate in Reflect), but it would be better if there weren't other mechanics whose effects are pretty much the same.
So I think that cleave and headbutting would have to be changed to make me like riposte.

I personally would have liked it if weapon differentiation had built upon pointy vs slashing vs blunt, with slashing being very good against unarmoured, blunt being very good against armour, and pointy having lower damage overall, but the potential to make damage spikes against both. However, it wouldn't have been as good as the system there is now.

[stoneychips]

Its funny, once upon a time axes were big, then swords, now maces

It's funny, I was initially advised to use maces (because hydrae mostly). I still like them okay (flails are a pretty nice start), though really more so if you get a strong early whip. if you don't, the mid-game training curve is still a little boring for many species. I'm not all that impressed by 0=ish skill bonuses -- yes you can drop something else and play them, but it isn't really all that exciting for me to level them past say 12-14. Unless say you're a human, who just breezes through experience gain.

I still enjoy axes too, but the cleaving is a pretty situational choice. Unless you have a thick defenses background, it's more a desperation measure. I'd say the same thing about oh, picking up a whip with an elf though. When are you ever gonna train the thing. It might get me through to Lair, but I'd probably drop it soon after and pick up something I could actually progress deeper with. For actually training it, just get a dagger already and what the heck, learn stealth with the trouble you save.

I do see the attraction of giving long blades something to make them stand out. I have to admit, I rarely played them before riposte. I'm just not entirely sure if it's a fair balance to give them something quite as strong as riposte without giving other melee weapons something more also.

[TonberryJam]

cleaving is great with high ac+ev or ac+sh. can work on octopodes too

[severen]

Its important to note that unlike the two-handed versions, the one handed maces do considerably more damage than axes. Broad axe is a good bit less damage than Eveningstar. Why Exec Axe/bardiche is more damage than great mace I dunno maybe because of giant clubs, although that would be odd since only two species can use them.

For one-handed single target damage maces is hard to beat, most flat out damaging weapon and possible best fast weapon too (sacred scourge/demon whip). Why two-handed is kinda of meh other than low skill cap at 20 I dunno, I guess a great mace is meant to compare to battleaxe/greatsword jusging by skill caps but then maces is missing a normal sized base damage 18 wep. Being common doesn't really explain this because bardiches are common too and are 18. Two handed mace are in an awkward place, but the 1 damage on great maces is not that big a deal and the excellent one handed options make the skill itself competitive IMO.

If they did add some special thing to maces they would pretty much have to nerf the one-handed things which is probably a bad thing. Having a pure damage option would be the smart thing.

[Lasty]

17 base dam at min delay for 20 skill is considerably better than 18 base dam at min delay for 26 skill.

[dynast]

Dire flails are also pretty easy to master.

[Shtopit]

Axes are (were) good for slow characters, that cannot get to safe positioning easily without being battered in the process, or when a safe positioning simply isn't available (there's a sprint like that, The Pits, I think, and some places like Lair if you're wandless). I say "were", because long blades now do pretty much the same; maybe a little less damage?

[dynast]

Axes are pretty good in Zot now that shifters decide where and how many you are going to fight.

[papilio]

Riposte can never be compared to cleavning in terms of efficiency.

Cleaving: 75% damage
Riposte: 100% x 33% x dodging chance = 10~20% damage

[duvessa]

Riposte can never be compared to cleavning in terms of efficiency.

I agree with this, which is why it baffles me that you compare it to cleaving 2 seconds later

(your comparison only works if you assume the monster attacks exactly as often as you do)

[papilio]

ok, minor correction.

riposte = 100% x 33% x dodging chance x (player atkdelay = 0.7 / mon atkdelay = 1.0 usually) = 8~20%

[Midn8]

I think that riposte is far more useful than cleaving in hallways, which is why it is useful.

As for special abilities, M&F has the best 1 handers and Staves has the best 2 hander (Staves gets lajatang of speed, and M&F gets Eveningstar and Demon whip) as far as straight damage goes.

[severen]

17 base dam at min delay for 20 skill is considerably better than 18 base dam at min delay for 26 skill.

Making an absolute statement when there is a varying data point is not a great thing to do.

When skill is 27 you statement is wrong. When skill is 20 your statement is correct. Pretending its always correct is ... not convincing and kind of a bad look.

For people intending to max out their weapon skill Great Mace is a poor max tier weapon compared to Bardiche/Exec axe. For people who don't want to spend that much XP is an excellent choice, however this still does not line up to one-handed mace performance, eveningstar is more damage AND caps at 16 broad axe caps at 18 skill. One handed maces are better in every way vs one handed axes, two handed have tradeoffs but are not objectively purely better even if the quote above tries to state that this is so in a definitive manner but this is just quite obviously risable.

Now if you had argued that the better accuracy of -4 vs -6 balanced things out I would not have argued because that is more math than I want to do. But this statement is ... poor.

[Lasty]

@severen: my point is that you can get excellent damage from great maces for way less XP than a bardiche or exec axe. Arguing against that from the position that some hypothetical player has decided to get 27 weapon skill is like saying CPA is bad armor because a hypothetical player might have chosen not to ever train armor.

Great maces give you significantly better value for your investment than bardiches or exec axes. That is trivially true. If a hypothetical player has chosen to ignore value, that doesn't change that value exists.