The Tavern

This is a formal request to rethink the role of unrandarts in the game.

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I think they are, in their current incarnation and under current circumstances (explained later) actually a detrimental factor when it comes to increasing fun.

And I think we could use some fun increase right about now.

What makes me draw this bizarre conclusion is that most unrandarts have interesting semi-unique traits that are fun.
But because you are 1. unlikely to find one and 2. even more likely to find one that you actually consider equipping on your current character, you rarely get to experience said fun.
I don't personally agree with this, but at least I can understand it.

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Now none this wouldn't be much of a problem by itself - the argument could be made that them not being in every game is part of the fun. But when combined with my next point...

...the stupid redundancy meme. Or obsolete meme, or uniqueness meme or design space meme, technical limitations meme... it goes by many names but it remains ugly all the same.

This unwritten Tavern law states that every feature in the game must be 100% unique and it must not vaguely resemble anything ever, no matter how far-fetched, flat-out wrong, or nonsensical the comparison between the supposedly similiar features is. Because of this, the special effects of unrandarts are completely locked and is also used to instantly shut down potentially interesting ideas for new gods, races etc. with no real reason.

You can easily see how INVALID this meme is by drawing the natural conclusion from it - "Trog gifts weapons, Oka gifts weapons, Gozag grants access to shops that sell weapons, remove 2 of them". You can repeat this lunacy with everything in the game until there is no game left to play. Of course things should not be a carbon copy of each other, a. the game's nature pretty much demands for certain things to be accessible in more than one way, and if these ways are at least somewhat different, that's "uniqueness" enough in most cases. And b. crawl is just not the type of game where we will see completely brand new, never-seen before things that have nothing in common with anything that has ever been unless the game gets completely rewritten from scratch.

Btw, directly attacking this meme is a death wish. It has grown too strong and the devs caved in under the pressure. So your only chance to get anything done around here is to abide by these meme laws, which is literally impossible as I just explained since the meme is made so that you can compare anything to anything on no grounds at all, thus instantly destroying any attempt at innovation.

This has become a memeocracy, with the "rule of meme" guiding all of it's decisions. I will not stand for it.

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I'd find it more interesting to put unrandart effects on something more MMMMMMM... accessible. Like a god ability, spell, intrinsic, regular brand, wand or whatever. Rather than only having access to them every 5000 games.
But because of the design-space embargo, there is 0 hope to see let's say, a disarm ability/weapon passive on anything other than Captain's cutlass which you will never find.

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TL;DR: Don't block interesting "design space" with features that you will use in 0.1% of your games AND killing new ideas on the basis of memetic (INVALID) reasoning. Thank you.

Most fixedarts are literally spells or consumables in equipment form.

For great fun, use Wizard mode to create artifacts. Just don't be surprised if doing so makes the game less challenging.

removeelyvilon wrote:But because of the design-space embargo, there is 0 hope to see let's say, a disarm ability/weapon passive on anything other than Captain's cutlass which you will never find.

Code:: Gained mutation: You are covered in slimy tendrils that may disarm your opponents. [Jiyva's grace]

Its pretty stupid that rMut is only on unrandarts and not randarts. Completely backwards really.

Ge0ff wrote:
removeelyvilon wrote:But because of the design-space embargo, there is 0 hope to see let's say, a disarm ability/weapon passive on anything other than Captain's cutlass which you will never find.

Code:
Gained mutation: You are covered in slimy tendrils that may disarm your opponents. [Jiyva's grace]

Rule-of-meme declares that Jello must be clearly removed from the game. It is the only logical conclusion. Obsolete! OBSOLETE!

Just becasue this contains the word meme doesn't make it less valid. I demand this to be moved back to game design discussion.

Saving potential for interesting mechanics for elements of the game that the player has access to in more than a few games in his or her life time would be an improvement for the game now and in the future and is at least worth consideration.

I think you're wildly overestimating how much "tavern memes" affect development.

FR: Tavern memes should have more influence on Crawl development

removeelyvilon wrote:the stupid redundancy meme. Or obsolete meme, or uniqueness meme or design space meme, technical limitations meme... it goes by many names but it remains ugly all the same.

I hate them all with a fiery passion, but I disagree that they are all the same. Each has its own colorful brand of stupid.

removeelyvilon wrote:This is a formal request to rethink the role of unrandarts in the game.

---

I think they are, in their current incarnation and under current circumstances (explained later) actually a detrimental factor when it comes to increasing fun.

And I think we could use some fun increase right about now.

What makes me draw this bizarre conclusion is that most unrandarts have interesting semi-unique traits that are fun.
But because you are 1. unlikely to find one and 2. even more likely to find one that you actually consider equipping on your current character, you rarely get to experience said fun.
I don't personally agree with this, but at least I can understand it.

---

Now none this wouldn't be much of a problem by itself - the argument could be made that them not being in every game is part of the fun. But when combined with my next point...

...the stupid redundancy meme. Or obsolete meme, or uniqueness meme or design space meme, technical limitations meme... it goes by many names but it remains ugly all the same.

This unwritten Tavern law states that every feature in the game must be 100% unique and it must not vaguely resemble anything ever, no matter how far-fetched, flat-out wrong, or nonsensical the comparison between the supposedly similiar features is. Because of this, the special effects of unrandarts are completely locked and is also used to instantly shut down potentially interesting ideas for new gods, races etc. with no real reason.

You can easily see how INVALID this meme is by drawing the natural conclusion from it - "Trog gifts weapons, Oka gifts weapons, Gozag grants access to shops that sell weapons, remove 2 of them". You can repeat this lunacy with everything in the game until there is no game left to play. Of course things should not be a carbon copy of each other, a. the game's nature pretty much demands for certain things to be accessible in more than one way, and if these ways are at least somewhat different, that's "uniqueness" enough in most cases. And b. crawl is just not the type of game where we will see completely brand new, never-seen before things that have nothing in common with anything that has ever been unless the game gets completely rewritten from scratch.

Btw, directly attacking this meme is a death wish. It has grown too strong and the devs caved in under the pressure. So your only chance to get anything done around here is to abide by these meme laws, which is literally impossible as I just explained since the meme is made so that you can compare anything to anything on no grounds at all, thus instantly destroying any attempt at innovation.

This has become a memeocracy, with the "rule of meme" guiding all of it's decisions. I will not stand for it.

---

I'd find it more interesting to put unrandart effects on something more MMMMMMM... accessible. Like a god ability, spell, intrinsic, regular brand, wand or whatever. Rather than only having access to them every 5000 games.
But because of the design-space embargo, there is 0 hope to see let's say, a disarm ability/weapon passive on anything other than Captain's cutlass which you will never find.

---

TL;DR: Don't block interesting "design space" with features that you will use in 0.1% of your games AND killing new ideas on the basis of memetic (INVALID) reasoning. Thank you.

This thread is too similar to other tavern threads, remove!

Could you give an example of unrandarts being used to block features? I know what you mean with the redundancy argument, but I don't think I've ever seen it in regards to unrandarts.

Lasty wrote:I think you're wildly overestimating how much "tavern memes" affect development.

I think I'm not. Not anymore.

Rast wrote:FR: Tavern memes should have more influence on Crawl development

Isn't that the supposed design goal of Hellcrawl?

Leaving aside the memeology....

If a mechanic is good, it should not be restricted to a fixedart. If a mechanic is (interesting but (unbalanceable or (powerful and annoying to use))) or (interesting only for novelty), then it is appropriate for a fixedart. So, are there any mechanics that are on a fixedart right now, and shouldn't be? Here are the only ones I have an opinion about:

Examples (mechanics that are good, and maybe shouldn't be restricted to a fixedart):
- Gong (removed when I remembered what the message spam is like)
- Firestarter
- Kryia's

Non-Examples:
- Captain's cutlass (It encourages swapping to a more powerful weapon right after disarming the enemy. Actually it should probably be removed.)
- Robe of vines (Interesting but pillar-dancy)
- Boots of the assassin (Interesting but impossible to balance)
- Cloak of the thief (Interesting but encourages some annoying behaviour. If there were a timeout to re-evoke it would be on the other list)
- Arc blade (interesting only for novelty)

Gong is kinda-sorta Qazlal. Firestarter is Inner Flame on hit (and also amazing). Robe of vines is "be a Vine Stalker". Kriya is just more healing. Boots is just more stabbing damage. Cloak of thief is just infinite scroll of fog, also Dith gives you clouds on damage, so here's that. Arc blade is just Static Discharge on hit. A lot of that stuff is already in the game, with these undrands providing infinite/automated versions.

The only item on your list that does something semi-unique is Cutlass... well, there's Tukima, though, I guess. And that one Jello mutation.

I think the items are fine being what they are - cool rare things.

> Unrandarts and stupid memes - Enemies of progress

me, me, and me, respectively

pleasing fungus sounds more like Fedhas ability than an unrandart tbh

I do often feel like there should be at least some logical constraints to what artifacts appear. If you're playing a full-on caster, no weapons skill at all, and get an artifact with Int+9 but No Casting, what's the point really?

Yes a shop will contain some things you'd never care about, but I'm not sure I see how filling limited artifact slots with things you'd never want adds to enjoyment. The only excuse that comes to mind is, if they're sitting out in the open, they can lure you to explore that space just to find out. Mimics could achieve the same purpose though, presumably without spending artifact drop space.

I also agree the non-redundancy/streamlining/remove anything less popular or whatever meme is perhaps getting a little out of hand.

This whole thread is a meme. How can you ask for so much? you are complaining this much about the equipment. Crawl is already easy as it is. No point in making it any easier. So long and thanks for all the keks

Edit: it would be nice if the devs added more unrandarts

TrumpTrain wrote:This whole thread is a meme.

Whoa!

Spoiler: show

I take back my comment, and apologize, I was triggered this morning. If we just added more equipment to the game it would be nice. It gets p boring seeing the same equipment over and over.

removeelyvilon wrote:Just becasue this contains the word meme doesn't make it less valid.

If your position is so idiotic that it's easily mistaken for a joke, you might want to rethink your position

Rast wrote:FR: Tavern memes should have more influence on Crawl development

That is EXACTLY how Ogre got -1 to M&F and how Halfling will be removed.

I don't think anyone suggested nerfing the Ogre mace apt, but I'm too lazy to dig up the thread.

I did

https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=22316

The Tavern

Unrandarts and stupid memes - Enemies of progress

Unrandarts and stupid memes - Enemies of progress

Re: Unrandarts and stupid memes - Enemies of progress

Re: Unrandarts and stupid memes - Enemies of progress

Re: Unrandarts and stupid memes - Enemies of progress

Re: Unrandarts and stupid memes - Enemies of progress

Re: Unrandarts and stupid memes - Enemies of progress

Re: Unrandarts and stupid memes - Enemies of progress

Re: Unrandarts and stupid memes - Enemies of progress

Re: Unrandarts and stupid memes - Enemies of progress

Re: Unrandarts and stupid memes - Enemies of progress

Re: Unrandarts and stupid memes - Enemies of progress

Re: Unrandarts and stupid memes - Enemies of progress

Re: Unrandarts and stupid memes - Enemies of progress

Re: Unrandarts and stupid memes - Enemies of progress

Re: Unrandarts and stupid memes - Enemies of progress

Re: Unrandarts and stupid memes - Enemies of progress

Re: Unrandarts and stupid memes - Enemies of progress

Re: Unrandarts and stupid memes - Enemies of progress

Re: Unrandarts and stupid memes - Enemies of progress

Re: Unrandarts and stupid memes - Enemies of progress

Re: Unrandarts and stupid memes - Enemies of progress

Re: Unrandarts and stupid memes - Enemies of progress

Re: Unrandarts and stupid memes - Enemies of progress

Re: Unrandarts and stupid memes - Enemies of progress

Re: Unrandarts and stupid memes - Enemies of progress

Re: Unrandarts and stupid memes - Enemies of progress