The Tavern

AE:

Shock: God tier, bounce hits 4 times killing everything, range is entire los, everything you could want in a lvl 1 spell and more

RMsl: God tier, always active, easy to use, nullifies centaurs, orcs with projectiles, blowguns, lots of other common early game deaths for no cost

Swiftness: God tier, escape from anything, just stay moderately close to a stair and you will never die

Meph cloud: God tier, can basically auto clear d1-12 or so and orc1-2 and stays handy even through lair/elf. You probably won't find it in time as an AE though.

Static discharge: Solid spell, good for focusing down high HP single target, becomes high tier with rElec

Airstrike: God tier, possibly broken spell that easily dispatches anything flying, summoners, smiters, casters. Unobstructed LoS no longer matters.

Lightning spire: God tier, way too good for a level 4 spell, can solo entire packs while you kite near it, huge DPS.

Lightning bolt: god tier, bounce hits 4 times killing everything, can get you to 3 runes all by itself

Silence: God tier, gives free win vs elf:1-3, tomb:1-3, lich/ancient lich, any of the caster uniques

Conjure ball lightning: Ok ok this is a bad spell lol, don't use even with rElec.

DMsL: God tier, even better than rMsl, always on, no effective MP cost and nullifies yaktaurs, boulder throwers, centaur warrior, elven archer/master archer, other sources of midgame deaths

Poison Cloud: Somewhat worse version of Freezing Cloud, mostly shitty because it involves poison magic (more on this later)

Freezing Cloud: SUPER god tier, sick AoE that almost nothing dangerous resists, MP efficient as all get out, can basically single handedly win you a 3 rune game. Almost never a reason to use any other spell.

Chain Lightning: God tier, can 1-shot an ancient lich. Hilarious borderline OP DPS that probably shouldn't even be in the game.

Tornado: LOL too funny. God tier defense and offense, free win button, if you have this spell go collect your 15 runes and GG.

Synopsis: God tier, would be the default go to class if not for FE and IE and Cj and Wz and basically every other non VM offensive magic start being so damned good.

Now for VM:

Sting: Shit tier spell that doesnt do anything vs phantoms, zombies, player ghosts and requires kiting even when it works. One of the most tedium inducing spells in the game.

Ignite Poison: LOL pretty good if you can find it, makes you almost as good as an FE who can make fire in 1 steps instead of 2. Good luck on that scavenger hunt!

Meph Cloud: God tier early game spell, the only reason to go VM, too bad wizards also get it and 3 other useful spells.

Spider Form: Sucks if you are not a dedicated transmuter, which being a VM, you aren't

OTR: Also known as that spell which also kills you, doesn't do anything which Meph Cloud couldn't have done with less risk. Have i mentioned it doesn't do jack to demons, undead, poisonous monsters?

Alistair's: Another spell which weakens you in order to weaken monsters, when spells from other schools would be outright killing them. Hooray if you like avoidable deaths I guess. Have i mentioned it doesn't do jack to demons, undead, poisonous monsters?

Venom Bolt: On average, less damage, less range than lightning bolt and doesn't bounce. I mean I guess it's good if you enjoy poisoning things and watching their HP bars slowly diminish as they inflict avoidable deaths on you... Have i mentioned it doesn't do jack to demons, undead, poisonous monsters?

PArrow: Really good DPS if you can find something that isn't a demon or undead or abomination or nonliving in the late game! Nice work, you will definitely prove all the VM naysayers wrong if you can just avoid the 40 other monsters on the floor that aren't effected by your best spell. Sometimes you might even find a non rPois enemy if you look really hard!!! You might get a dozen, hell, even two dozen MP efficient attacks in in the late game if you are really lucky!!! Don't forget kiting though.

Poison Cloud: Highest overall spell in the school and it's like... the 6th or 7th best spell in Air Magic, lmfao. Picture your character's existential despair: "Is... is this it? Is this really all I get? I only get 9 spells? And where is the lvl 7,8,9 spells? Why did I endure running from half the enemies in the dungeon and kiting and damaging myself??? Just for this??? Why did the gods create this shitty school?? I should've listened to me mum and been a doctor!! Fuck this Orb shit, I am done!"

Verdict: Terrible school, it looks like something a dev half heartedly created and was like "sigh, what a waste of my time,look at all the immune monsters and even when it works you have to kite, this is just dumb. This will never get approved, so I won't even bother trying to come up with lvl 7+ spells." Then someone tripped onto the keyboard and accidentally put the commit into the game. That's legitimately how this looks.

Most demons aren't poison immune anymore. PArrow isn't a "late game" spell, either.

Meanwhile tornado is irresistible, freezing cloud/lightning bolt can kill non T1 demons in a single cast, AE's lvl 4-5 spells aren't nullified by a single level of resistance like OTR/Alistair, and oh, as an AE you actually *have* late game spells.

Thanks for inadvertently agreeing with me.

Too bad there is so much wrong with this, the conclusions are not terribly off (AE is better than VM mostly), but there is enough just straight up wrong or misleading information here that i am just not going to bother correcting it, it is just too depressing.

Thanks

Here's a true side by side comparison of IE vs. FE. IE level 1 spell: Freeze, can't miss, ignores AC. A++. FE level one spell: Flame Tongue, misses all the time, complete garbage. Thus I conclude that IE rules and FE is garbage. Thanks for agreeing (btw if you agree that IE > FE you also agree with everything else I wrote).

I did all the spells not just the lvl 1 spells though =)

Thanks for agreeing, m8.

Who knew that lethediver was a politician, or possibly a tabloid journalist..

Fine, I'll correct a few:


No it doesn't. They hit twice. (TIL this has not always been true)


Not anymore. As of 0.19, OTR is less dumb, not poisoning you and not damaging things farther away less.

See, this is great, this is what tavern should be about. I get us 99% of the way there with my OP and god tier knowledge that is just barely missing some areas due to 1.9 and you guys fill in the (almost nonexistent) gaps.

The point is, I'm right, and poison magic sucks and should either be buffed or removed.

Thanks again everyone.

Would you please stop acting like a piece of shit? Thanks.

We reached the point of comparing apples and oranges, bravo.

in what world are airstrike, silence, lightning bolt and dmsl god tier

Idk, i think its ash or qazlal tier...

not doing anything so let me put out my thoughts.

• A tier(very good, and nearly universally so): Animate Skeleton, Corpse Rot, Freeze, Apportation(if you are willing to play very optimally...), Blink, Confuse, Conjure Flame, Call Imp, Summon Butterflies
  
• B tier(good, may be situational(aka strong but lategame or more restricted to character type)): Animate Dead, Sticks to Snakes, Aura of Abjuration, Borgnjor's Revivification, Statue Form, Call Imp, Summon Ice Beasts, Summon Lightning Spire, Tornado, Dazzling Spray, Death Channel, Ensorcelled Hibernation, Infestation, Invisibility, Lesser Beckoning, Magic Dart, Mephitic Cloud, Ozocubu's Armour, Pain, Regeneration, Sandblast, Simulacrum, Spectral Weapon, Spider Form, Swiftness, Vampiric Draining, Tukima's Dance
  
• C tier(fine): Agony, Bolt of Cold, Bolt of Fire, Bolt of Draining, Bolt of Magma, Iron Shot, Beastly Appendage, Blade Hands, Call Canine Familiar, Chain Lightning, Control Undead, Controlled Blink, Corona, Death's Door, Discord, Disjunction, Dispersal, Dispel Undead, Dragon Form, Dragon's Call, Fire Storm, Fireball, Flame Tongue, Freezing Cloud, Fulminant Prism, Glaciate, Ice Form, Ignite Poison, Iskenderun's Battlesphere, Iskenderun's Mystic Blast, Lee's Rapid Deconstruction, Lehudib's Crystal Spear, Malign Gateway, Monstrous Menagerie, Olgreb's Toxic Radiance, Orb of Destruction, Ozocubu's Refrigeration, Petrify, Poison Arrow, Poisonous Cloud, Portal Projectile, Repel Missiles, Searing Ray, Shadow Creatures, Shatter, Shock, Shroud of Golubria, Silence, Slow, Song of Slaying, Spellforged Servitor, Static Discharge, Sticky Flame, Stone Arrow, Sting, Sublimation of Blood, Summon Forest, Summon Guardian Golem, Summon Horrible Things, Summon Hydra, Summon Mana Viper, Summon Small Mammal, Throw Icicle, Hydra Form
  
• D tier(kinda bad): Airstrike, Cause Fear, Cigotuvi's Embrace, Confusing Touch, Darkness, Deflect Missiles, Delayed Fireball, Excruciating Wounds, Gell's Gravitas, Haunt, Infusion, Inner Flame, Irradiate, Lightning Bolt, Venom Bolt, Metabolic Englaciation, Necromutation, Passage of Golubria(now that you can't use it in zot), Passwall, Recall, Summon Demon, Summon Greater Demon, Teleport other, Throw Flame, Throw Frost, Yara's Violent Unravelling
  
• F tier(bad): Alistair's Intoxication, Conjure Ball Lightning, Force Lance, Leda's Liquefaction, Ring of Flames

i can't tell what irony level this thread is on

I don't see any mention of the horrible accuracy in Air Magic. Ever fire off 5 lightening bolts burning your whole magic pool and not score a single hit? Happens quite often.
Ball Lightening is an acceptable stand in for games where OoD never appears, happened to myself in a game and I realized it was the only hope I had to kill cursed toes in Zot. So it has some value, I also find it to be FUN to use but yeah, it can kill you. That same game where I didn't get OoD was also the game I had to kill orbs of fire by using the combo of tornado and poison arrow with its partially irresistible mechanic. I don't think tornado spam alone would have done the job, so poison arrow came in big for myself in that game. Mephitic cloud just about guarantees that you can clear to L:6 by itself. OTR and kiting are also really strong in early to mid game.

If anything Poison is extremely strong in the early to mid game and Air Magic is fairly weak by comparison. Most low level air magic caps around 100 spell power. Spells like Air Strike don't appear very often before lair in my personal experience. I also don't see many casters ever bothering to learn silence.

Hahahaha neato burrito

God tier.

Its not surprising that the magic school that allows you to hurl lightning bolts is god tier. Ever heard of zeus? Odin? I rest my case.

Air school is inferior to Fire/Ice/Earth/Necro/Summon IMHO, Lighting bolt is a trap for new players since you need to continue training corresponding schools after getting it to 1% from Vehumet/wizardry. I can't even imagine pain of playing Naga with that level of noise.

I have just checked top score for NaAE, nothing surprising indeed:

My spell tier

S (Extremely good)
Repel Missiles, Regeneration, Animate Skeleton, Apprortation, Blink, Stick to Snakes,

A+ (Very good, but not universal)
Fire Storm, Glaciate, Mephitic Cloud, Dazzling Spray, Ensorcelled Hibernation, Confuse, Summon Butterflies, Haunt, Spellforged Servitor, Sublimation of Blood,
Infestation, Lesser Beckoning, Statue Form

A (Good)
Sticky Flame, Conjure Flame, Simulacrum, Sandblast, Spectral Weapon, Tukima's Dance, Yara's Violent Unravelling, Invisibility, Shroud of Golubria, Ozocubu's Armour,
Deflect Missiles, Summon Ice Beast, Summon Lightning Spire, Aura of Abjuration, Summon Mana Viper, Malign Gateway, Summon Horrible Things, Dragon's Call, Corpse Rot, Animate Dead,
Death Channel, Borgnjor's Revivification, Portal Projectile, Passage of Golubria, Controlled Blink, Passwall, Blade Hands, Dragon Form

B (Mediocre)
Fireball, Bolt of Fire, Freeze, Throw Icicle, Ice form, Bolt of Cold, Freezing Cloud, Ozocubu's Refrigeration, Lee's Rapid Deconstruction, Iron Shot,
Shock, Static Discharge, Chain Lightning, Tornado, Olgreb's Toxic Radiance, Magic Dart, Searing Ray, Iskenderun's Mystic Blast, Force Lance, Fulminant Prism,
Iskenderun's Battlesphere, Orb of Destruction, Confusing Touch (after nerf), Slow, Cause Fear, Silence, Discord, Swiftness, Death's Door, Call Canine Familiar,
Shadow Creatures, Summon Forest, Monstrous Menagerie, Vampiric Draining, Control Undead, Agony, Bolt of Draining, Dispel Undead, Dispersal, Disjunction,
Spider Form, Hydra Form,

C (Not-so-good)
Flame Tongue, Ignite Poison, Bolt of Magma, Delayed Fireball, Throw Frost, Stone Arrow, Leda's Liquefaction, Lehudib's Crystal Spear, Shatter, Airstrike,
Lightning Bolt, Conjure Ball Lightning, Venom Bolt, Poison Arrow, Poisonous Cloud, Irradiate, Corona, Inner Flame, Metabolic Englaciation, Darkness,
Infusion, Song of Slaying, Excruciating Wounds, Ring of Flames, Summon Small Mammal, Call Imp, Recall, Summon Guardian Golem, Summon Demon, Summon Greater Demon,
Summon Hydra, Pain, Cigotuvi's Embrace, Teleport Other, Beastly Appendage, Petrify, Necromutation,

D (Awful)
Sting, Gell's Gravitas, Alistair's Intoxication,

Top score HuAE was able to stay AE.

To slightly more differentiate my list above:

B+
Sandblast, Yara's Violent Unravelling, Summon Ice Beast, Summon Mana Viper, Passwall, Ice form, Freezing Cloud, Swiftness, Summon Forest, Control Undead

C+
Flame Tongue, Ignite Poison, Throw Frost, Stone Arrow, Poison Arrow, Song of Slaying, Call Imp

My spell tiers:

A+ tab

A haste

D anything else

But Haste was removed.

What will be removed next? Tab? Everything else?!

Well, in all seriousness tab is problematic indeed.
If it is a popcorn monster, it should not take 17 hits to kill it (I complained about it recently).
If it is a dangerous monster, the fight still should not consist in hitting a monster several dozen times and checking surrounding (new monster came into view) after each hit.
If you were dead in 5-6 hits, every action would become important. I played a game where this is true and it was great.

Can we just close this atrocity of a game already?

Serious though, i just want to correct that monsters(popcorn or not) dont take "X" hits to kill, but rather "1 to X" and THATS where the "problem" would be. I dont see that as a problem though, i would rather play a danger assessment minigame than a chess minigame.

I don't see any problem with popcorn monsters not dying instantly. During those 17 turns you use to kill one, a dangerous monster might come into view.

That's why I don't think all rats should be removed from Lair, for example. Their purpose is to slow you down, cut escape routes etc. so that more dangerous monsters can get to you.

It's very rare for swarms of easily dispatched, lesser posters to cause an interesting scenario to happen even if there is an archaeo a few tiles out of LoS. Trust me, I would know.

I think this sums up the basic divide. I also find myself in the former category.

Don't get me wrong, there is still randomness in that game. It's just not that crazy level of randomness like in crawl.
I'd rather play chess minigame than pixel-hunting.

Odin didn't do lightning, that was Thor.

Sigh theres just no pleasing some.

Seriously. Is this thread a collaborative self-parody of the tavern?

Parody?

Never mind. It's just that coming back to the tavern after the holidays was somewhat of a culture shock, again.

Slightly OT, but since chess was mentioned, here's my ranking of chess pieces:

Cosmic demiurg tier: queen
main deity tier: rook
side deity tier: bishop
human tier: knight, king
monkey tier: pawn

I never use knights, so I just put them into the human tier. In general, you only ever want to move your queen, so most of the time using another piece is a mistake, anyways. The early game is the hardest part, because you cannot get your queen out yet.

In the early game you often have no choice but to move a pawn. Which is tedious. Pawns should be removed.

Queen is OP, it should be removed. Not to mention that its job is already done by other two pieces, bishop and rook.

I can tell that you never use knights...

BTW I suck at chess.

Knights are one of the better pieces, honestly. Knowing how to use knights makes a big difference (they are probably just a smidge better than bishops, when used properly)

*disclaimer~ i am not good at chess, i just know people who are*

I've been getting serious about chess for a year now -- though I'm still far from becoming remotely good -- and I can assure you that ...

... every single sentence in that post of mine is complete and utter nonsense. Though not more nonsensical than ranking a spell like Butterflies in relation to a spell like Bolt of Fire. That was my parody of what would happen if the tavern were to discuss chess strategy. A chess player, even at my low level, wants to make use of all of his/her assets, pawns are very important and moving only the queen is a recipe for disaster.

I'm sorry. I didn't intend to be too subtle about this. I suppose being German and all, I should abstain from any attempt at humour in an international forum. :/

The chessboard should be shortened to 6 rows.

The chessboard should have 27 squares.

Chess should really be upgraded to RTS, just look at all recent AAA titles.