The Tavern

https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e ... 7e0eee74cc
Does this sound interesting to many people?
Initial looks like jumping nagas with pathetic stats and lame aptitudes.

Well that looks familiar, interesting to see that concept spun as a player race

https://github.com/Implojin/crawl/commi ... 06b1f7e116

On demand cblink as the thematic cornerstone of a player race seems unavoidably broken though

+3 Apt to meme magic

Bitter vet reaction in 3... 2... 1... "OMG, we already have a race with apt 0 in something, omg we already have a race that is slow, omg we already have an ability that with a lot of imagination vaguely resembles and actually works completely different than a level 8 spell? This meme race is not interesting or different at all, even though it is! DESIGN SPACE! DESIIIGNNN SPAAAACEEEEEE!!!!!!! 1111010101010101010" *Dies of kidney failure.*

So this is like a naga, but weaker, but it can use semi cblink, but we have passage of golubria already... I would just ditch the slow movement thing. I assume leaping causes exhaustion so you can't spam it - Isn't leap also similar to when felids had pouncing, which got removed?

otoh this is the year of the frog so it's fitting

Cat leap wasn't removed, it was reworked into Dith's Shadow Step.

2/10 would not merge

Spoiler: show

Neqoxexings wrote:Cat leap wasn't removed, it was reworked into Dith's Shadow Step.

This isn't true. Shadow step was something that mikee put in his original proposal. Grunt took the jump attack targetter and generalized the code to implement a version of shadow step similar to that proposal, but it didn't replace jump attack (the new targetter supported both mechanics). In the removal commit, I did point out that shadow step is something similar with a better design that players can use if they liked jump attack.

The current status of "Hop" is that it has a cooldown that requires non-movement:

PleasingFungus wrote:Inspired by, but perhaps better than, Barbs status, -Hop only
wears off while you're not moving. (That is, while you're resting,
attacking, or casting spells.) The goal is to avoid making it too
easy to run away from enemies indefinitely by repeatedly hopping,
and to avoid annoying turncount-optimal behaviour during travel.

Current duration is 12-24 turns, but if people are using it too
much in fights (whatever that entails?), it could become longer,
or move to a more Barbs-like effect.

It uses an AOE targeter (like fireball but with a larger radius) showing all potential landing spots. It's still a WIP and may go through other changes.

Frogs sound interesting, although I have to object to the whole shadow step -> jump attack change, as I loved jump attack and I want to combine it with characters who aren't worshipping dith, which I can no longer do. Jump attack was awesome and should exist both as a felid racial and on boots once more!

Frogs should become the mythical +2 unarmed combat race imho, but I know, it'll never happen. How about a +1?

Spoiler: show

mattlistener wrote:Be aware, whatever Pepe was originally, it's now a symbol of racist hatred.

Before this turns into any kind of discussion or argument, I'm going to step in to say that this is a conversation for Suggestions & Criticism, where we can talk about Pepe and our community standards if we wish to do so.

As far as this thread is concerned, however, I know where to apply good faith and where to come down as a moderator, and I think we've already done so. Let's keep this thread focused on PF's new species, though one imagines that PF would probably appreciate it if we would wait to criticize a finished product instead of an unmerged and possibly unfinished branch.

e: I'd also like to add that I don't think anybody on the mod team is interested in saying that using a Pepe meme is de facto evidence of racial animus. We've all been around long enough to remember when Pepe was as innocent as any other meme, and I'm willing to extend a fair bit of good faith. That said, I'm going to go ahead and change the title to emphasize what we're trying to discuss in this thread.

e2: In response to a report, I went ahead and put the old posts below spoiler tags, but I feel iffy about deleting them altogether without this post not making much sense. Merry xmas, folks.

not every frog is automatically a meme, either

frogs are cute and good. in the summertime we always have frogs crawling on the windows of our house, even 2 stories up. idk how they get there. excited to roleplay as my window frogs in my most played RL

So when will Frogs be available for testing?

I suspect devs secretly love Chei, they add too many species who cannot haste themselves, or have great HP regen (so you can stay in place and fight) or are slow.

If PleasingFungus feels they're at a playable state, I'm sure he'll ask johnstein about hosting on CBRO. We'll have to go with "maybe soon".

VeryAngryFelid wrote:I suspect devs secretly love Chei, they add too many species who cannot haste themselves, or have great HP regen (so you can stay in place and fight) or are slow.

Chei is staggeringly bad for races that are already slow though...

duvessa wrote:Chei is staggeringly bad for races that are already slow though...

For fast species Chei removes ability to run away from 90% monsters, for normal speed species Chei removes ability to pillar-dance 90% monsters, for slow species Chei does almost nothing, especially now that it has piety decay and you cannot lure things back for fighting as easy as before.

frogs should be especially susceptible to mutation. just like in real life!

Might be worthwhile to retheme them to another species - jumping spiders, perhaps?

Can I vote in favor of this? Reasons why jumping spiders are better:

Spiders are cooler than frogs
Jumping spiders already exist in the game and have this power; it'd be a bit cooler to have a playable species with the same power.
Could put them in the spider pit since the swamp is fulla spriggans, the shoals are packed with mermaids, and the snake pit is chock-full of naga.
The game already has hecka vertebrate species, but only octopodes and formicids for invertebrates. If Crawl is dedicated to diversity, phylum diversity is a good place to start.

Also, I vote we give them +1 with staves because only tengu and minotaur have an above zero aptitude for them.

duvessa wrote:Chei is staggeringly bad for races that are already slow though...

I will be extra proud of my Na of Chei win then! But to be fair, both Slouch and piety gain are much stronger on Nagas than on normal speed species.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My snail proposal was better than this... *cries*

Frogs are an amphibious humanoid race, said to be distantly related to the
Elves. Spawned in great numbers beneath the southern ice, their Mother-Father
sends them forth to destroy and pillage the civilized lands.

Distantly related to elves? Southern ice? "Mother-Father"? What's that? SO. MANY. QUESTIONS.
Are these guys inspired by frog from Chrono Trigger?

P.S. XP apt got fixed from 1 to 0. Now they even nerf stuff before it even exists! I'ts nerfing on a whole new level.

P.P.S. Make frog randomly susceptible to cold like Draconian for no good gameplay reason.

Btw, although I think this is some kind of in-joke, I do not condone the related to elves thing. Why does every new race need to be related to elves, as if that made them more legitimate or something. Let them stand on their own webbed feet. Pandaren? Related to elves. Naga? Used to be elves. Worgen? Introduced to the Alliance by the elves. Just... why?

Seems like "distantly related to the Draconians" might be more Crawl-y?

Implojin wrote:Well that looks familiar, interesting to see that concept spun as a player race

https://github.com/Implojin/crawl/commi ... 06b1f7e116

Whoa, I've never seen this branch! Very cool to see someone trying to design monsters - it's been a weird constant of recent forks (even ones that add things, like Circus Animals) that there weren't any new enemies to fight.

Were you planning on submitting this as a pull request, just making it for fun...?

PleasingFungus wrote:
Implojin wrote:Well that looks familiar, interesting to see that concept spun as a player race

https://github.com/Implojin/crawl/commi ... 06b1f7e116

Whoa, I've never seen this branch! Very cool to see someone trying to design monsters - it's been a weird constant of recent forks (even ones that add things, like Circus Animals) that there weren't any new enemies to fight.

Were you planning on submitting this as a pull request, just making it for fun...?

I had an idea for a late lair to early midgame monster and started working on the initial design for fun. Worked on it for a week or so and then got busy with other things, it kind of fell by the wayside. I talked with Hellmonk about some of the design for it (who expressed interest in possibly pulling it for hellcrawl if the final design turned out to be fun), and had a very brief conversation with gammafunk in -dev about how to code their leap ability as blink closer with a targeting fuzz-- I had assumed some portion of that filtered its way through into your race. Kind of neat if not, independent takes on the concept!

If there's interest, I suppose I could see about cleaning up some of the design and submitting a pull request. Much like your take, I was never attached to the toad-themed lore.

Yeah, no, frog race is totally unrelated. They were actually the very first thing i attempted to code for crawl, back in early 2014... got distracted and forgot about them for a while, but gammafunk ended up reminding me about them more recently.

Maneater Frogs have strong Theme, and certain devs seem interested in it already (per whispers in ##crawl-dev), but i'm pretty sure you'd get a lot of grumbing from the usual suspects if you added a monster with that tongue attack. (Not saying it's a bad idea, just be ready to answer objections!)

Please add frogmen as I'm already excited to RP as my favorite Chrono Trigger character!

I'd be interested in trying out a frog-species. Does this indicate a new direction for Crawl perhaps? There has been talk recently of distancing the game from "standard" fantasy fair; should we expect more of these kinds of things in the future? I'd certainly be down for that.

Dioneo wrote:I'd be interested in trying out a frog-species. Does this indicate a new direction for Crawl perhaps? There has been talk recently of distancing the game from "standard" fantasy fair; should we expect more of these kinds of things in the future? I'd certainly be down for that.

That's been a thing for a while now; if memory serves, that's how felid and octopode came into being.

Also I wanted to take this opportunity to say that I'm hype for frogs and most certainly find this an interesting idea. Hope they get tongue lash, too.

three name ideas

1. croak monsieurs
2. hoptopodes
3. ribbitches

removeelyvilon wrote:
Dioneo wrote:I'd be interested in trying out a frog-species. Does this indicate a new direction for Crawl perhaps? There has been talk recently of distancing the game from "standard" fantasy fair; should we expect more of these kinds of things in the future? I'd certainly be down for that.

That's been a thing for a while now; if memory serves, that's how felid and octopode came into being.

Also I wanted to take this opportunity to say that I'm hype for frogs and most certainly find this an interesting idea. Hope they get tongue lash, too.

Deep Dwarves and the removal of MD were some of the first examples of the move away from more traditional fantasy fare, although adding Felid, Octopode, and Formicid etc definitely moved it along.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
duvessa wrote:Chei is staggeringly bad for races that are already slow though...

For fast species Chei removes ability to run away from 90% monsters, for normal speed species Chei removes ability to pillar-dance 90% monsters, for slow species Chei does almost nothing, especially now that it has piety decay and you cannot lure things back for fighting as easy as before.

One can make the argument that normal-chei at 2.0 vs slow-chei at 3.0 you attacked twice when you move forward to attack or reposition and is therefore much worse. But this also pre-supposes you aren't using lesser beckoning which you should be doing as melee-chei.

2 move chei is actually much worse than 3 move chei, however there are ways to make this a mostly pointless distinction (darkness + lesser beckoning, high stealth etc.). But hey absolute statements with no supporting argument sound cool at least...

prozacelf wrote:
removeelyvilon wrote:
Dioneo wrote:I'd be interested in trying out a frog-species. Does this indicate a new direction for Crawl perhaps? There has been talk recently of distancing the game from "standard" fantasy fair; should we expect more of these kinds of things in the future? I'd certainly be down for that.

That's been a thing for a while now; if memory serves, that's how felid and octopode came into being.

Also I wanted to take this opportunity to say that I'm hype for frogs and most certainly find this an interesting idea. Hope they get tongue lash, too.

Deep Dwarves and the removal of MD were some of the first examples of the move away from more traditional fantasy fare, although adding Felid, Octopode, and Formicid etc definitely moved it along.

It amuses me that people think adding Frogs is a move away from traditional fantasy fare. Bullywogs from D&D, Slann from Warhammer. Or that Formicids are somehow super new and what not, *cough* thri-kreen *cough* *cough* playable in dark sun *cough*.

They changed the name of Tengu from Kenku but the species itself is taken straight from D&D, they just change to name to a japanese folklore thing to avoid the issue. Don't flatter the devs. They aren't doing shit in this regard. Removing Sludge Elves and keeping Deep elves? Deep elves are completely from D&D drow, sludge elves were at least somewhat original. High Elves being taken from tolkien? O really? Name me the actual proper name of the branch of elves that crawl High Elves mimic? Cuz its not the High elves that were in middle earth, the blond ones stayed in Valinor and the high elves of tolkien were actually a catch-all term for 3 kindred. Again crawl High elves are from D&D. Hah! But if we acknolwedged that then we would need to remove Tengu/Kenku one of the species that supposedly through some form of twisted logic can replace HE since its an even more obvious usage of D&D stuff since the name Kenku was completely made up.

The devs current hipster-esque bad excuse for removing things as being tolkien-like while simultaneously mashing in tons of D&D stuff or even worse thinking they are being original when they aren't because they apparently have no knowledge of what they are scorning to begin with. Dunno its just sad. I am just waiting for them to remove humans since they exist in <insert any fantasy setting here> and basically any other species can replace them for any background.

double hipster tolkien connoisseur checkmate

It's especially annoying when the replacement is often super bland names like formicid, felid, octopode. vine stalker is a great name, though

severen wrote:It amuses me that people think adding Frogs is a move away from traditional fantasy fare. Bullywogs from D&D, Slann from Warhammer. Or that Formicids are somehow super new and what not, *cough* thri-kreen *cough* *cough* playable in dark sun *cough*.

They changed the name of Tengu from Kenku but the species itself is taken straight from D&D, they just change to name to a japanese folklore thing to avoid the issue. Don't flatter the devs. They aren't doing shit in this regard. Removing Sludge Elves and keeping Deep elves? Deep elves are completely from D&D drow, sludge elves were at least somewhat original. High Elves being taken from tolkien? O really? Name me the actual proper name of the branch of elves that crawl High Elves mimic? Cuz its not the High elves that were in middle earth, the blond ones stayed in Valinor and the high elves of tolkien were actually a catch-all term for 3 kindred. Again crawl High elves are from D&D. Hah! But if we acknolwedged that then we would need to remove Tengu/Kenku one of the species that supposedly through some form of twisted logic can replace HE since its an even more obvious usage of D&D stuff since the name Kenku was completely made up.

The devs current hipster-esque bad excuse for removing things as being tolkien-like while simultaneously mashing in tons of D&D stuff or even worse thinking they are being original when they aren't because they apparently have no knowledge of what they are scorning to begin with. Dunno its just sad. I am just waiting for them to remove humans since they exist in <insert any fantasy setting here> and basically any other species can replace them for any background.

frogs aren't inspired by any of those things, they're just frogs. because they jump real good, like a frog.

in general, i'm sure if you mine enough fantasy settings you can find some precedent for just about any race, especially since "humanoid version of animal X" is a very obvious way to build a species. i don't think that's particularly damning.

but let's look at your specific example. according to wikipedia, thri-kreen are humanoid mantis-men, with exceptional jumping abilities, sharp claws, venomous bites, and psychic abilities. they like weird fancy polearms and crystal throwing weapons. formicids are humanoid ant-men, with tunneling abilities, antennae, and stasis. they like two-handed weapons and big shields.

they both have six limbs, because they're both based on insects. but given that, they're just about as different as two races can be.

ribbit

I see a great chance for a vampire reboot, personally.

The strange thing about formicids is how they have almost nothing in common with the ants that are in the game other than the 6 legs. If formicids are ants, I'd think ants would have stasis, or ants would be able to dig, or formicids would have a poison bite instead of just +3 poison magic apt.

Shtopit wrote:I see a great chance for a vampire reboot, personally.

Why use the floor... when you can leap in the air...

Cimanyd wrote:The strange thing about formicids is how they have almost nothing in common with the ants that are in the game other than the 6 legs. If formicids are ants, I'd think ants would have stasis, or ants would be able to dig, or formicids would have a poison bite instead of just +3 poison magic apt.

Fo used to be vulnerable to poison and it basically sucked

severen wrote:One can make the argument that normal-chei at 2.0 vs slow-chei at 3.0 you attacked twice when you move forward to attack or reposition and is therefore much worse. But this also pre-supposes you aren't using lesser beckoning which you should be doing as melee-chei.

2 move chei is actually much worse than 3 move chei, however there are ways to make this a mostly pointless distinction (darkness + lesser beckoning, high stealth etc.). But hey absolute statements with no supporting argument sound cool at least...

Sorry, I don't understand your argument. Do you mean it is better to be attacked thrice than twice? How is that?
Do you ever move without monsters in view? Do you even turn around corners? Do you ever move with monsters in view? Because in all those situations it's awful to be Naga, doubly awful with Chei. I love how you claim speed is irrelevant because you have level 6 spell online and stealth check never fails while talking about supporting arguments (which I did provide). Other species can get Dakrness and stealth too and they will be attacked less often than Naga with the same things...

Also you missed my main point, I wasn't comparing difference between Naga of chei and human of Chei, I was comparing difference between Naga of Chei and Naga of non-Chei. Also difference between Human of Chei and Human of non-Chei. First difference (Naga) is much smaller than the second one (Human).

Shard1697 wrote:Fo used to be vulnerable to poison and it basically sucked

tbf, i think this overlapped with their 'giant clubs & large rocks & also the large rocks pierce' phase.

still made adders miserable to fight

PleasingFungus wrote:in general, i'm sure if you mine enough fantasy settings you can find some precedent for just about any race

So then whats the real reason for removing High Elves?

Probably that they're boring and redundant

Elf lover wrote:
PleasingFungus wrote:in general, i'm sure if you mine enough fantasy settings you can find some precedent for just about any race

So then whats the real reason for removing High Elves?

Frog is just a temporary name, they're going to be renamed to High Jump Elves at some point.

Elf lover wrote:So then whats the real reason for removing High Elves?

If I had to guess, I'd say High elves were a relatively uninteresting species in terms of gameplay,
feeling somewhat like tengu but with weapon specialization like merfolk.
Especially with Ogres now also having newly-improved casting apts, there's a
very wide range of hybrid/magic-oriented species, with High Elves being
increasingly redundant.

this is just a hypothesis, tho. i could be wrong

(also, unlike frogs and formicids and whatever, high elves were literally tolkein elves. not like, "oh, if you stretch, you can sort of see a similarity", just straight-up tolkein rips)

The Tavern

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