The Tavern

Because 0.19 is better.

well .... I like the acid dragons and the damage listing.

i like the fear and dismay

Elf lover wrote:Because 0.19 is better.

0.19 is probably gonna become the definitive version of this game for a fair few, yeah, kind of like how 0.16 became definitive for some because of the removal of item destruction.

Overall I think that most changes to the game have been for the better. The upcoming version has quite a few that I dislike, however.

I like high elves because they are quite unique with their high attributes and aptitudes. No other species can quite match them as a (skald) melee + Makhleb + Tornado build. Are they too weak or too powerful? To me, they're more interesting than a lot of other species, but I'm biased against the tanky melee species I understand many people like more.

Removal of haste and healing wands is a huge nerf to lichform, and all undead chars. Tele wand helps a lot if you get abyssed early, or get silenced. It's worth carrying just for Mennas, like a potion of resistance for Nikola or a potion of flight for Jorgrun. I've found it to be extremely helpful with squishier builds who are more affected by any nerfs.

Removal of the Archmagi hat just seems random. It's a rare item, the Wiz- drawback affects skilling and other equipment decisions. Uninteresting? I could think of a dozen more uninteresting choices in the game.

Elitist wrote:
Elf lover wrote:Because 0.19 is better.

0.19 is probably gonna become the definitive version of this game for a fair few, yeah, kind of like how 0.16 became definitive for some because of the removal of item destruction.

Item destruction was removed in .15.

IMO .17 is the best version, but there are arguments for .18 also.

Indeed, I'll stay with 0.17 as well. Best version so far, the game went downhill from there.

Yeah, 0.17 strikes a good balance between interface advances and the retention of some of that "classic Crawl" stuff. I'd recommend it for anybody looking to play vintage Crawl.

That said, I'd encourage experienced players to screw around with Trunk nevertheless, if for nothing else than the fact that devs usually respond far better to player feedback when said player has actually done some playtesting. If the changes aren't fun, the game gets changed more until it is fun. It's not like the devs are trying to make a game people won't like.

But that said, sticking with an older version or preferring a cool fork like Hellcrawl is totally rad and fine, and hopefully other people will step up to make forks and branches that are cool too. NetHack has only been stronger for all its forks, for example.

I guess that there will always be some aspect someone likes better in a previous edition. For me it was pretty hard to transition from draconian with armour to draconian without body armour. I also think that curses were better as they were in the beginning, because they were more punishing and generally were a much bigger factor.
But that Crawl was also a very different game, with a lot of little details that made sense taken on their own and built a coherent system; at the same time, this system often flew into the face of playability (cursed mace? you die! cursed gloves? No see invisible for you! vampiric mace? ahahahahah you cut chunks you died!)

So yup, many different factors, many changes in some areas. I personally like the fact that some things are changed, even if I may not like the single thing that has been changed. In general, the game attempts to be more playable and more fun, and often succeeds (chunks without a knife, new Chei, new Ash), even though it may flatten the risk level at the same level for everyone (e.g. most races could starve because of a cursed mace, but Tengus could not starve because they could use their talons as a butchering tool, something that now makes no difference; or you once could fall into water and drown when confused, or have am. of clarity and be fully immune, while now there is no amulet, but also no drowning).

So one could say that the game is less quirky or less interesting, depending on how you look at it. I just find it more playable, and therefore better.

Real men proxy play trunk.

.10 is the only true version of crawl, come on guys it's obvious

if you don't get a huge boner whenever you read a scroll of detect curse you're a fake crawl fan

Arrhythmia wrote:.10 is the only true version of crawl, come on guys it's obvious

.9 would be if any of the servers hosted it :p

Clearly the best version was Linley's Dungeon Crawl 3.20 because only one rune was needed to enter Zot back then.

If many people start sticking to older versions, that doesn't exactly speak for the development of the game imo.

removeelyvilon wrote:If many people start sticking to older versions, that doesn't exactly speak for the development of the game imo.

Every version some people "threaten" to not move on, but I'm not sure if a significant number of people have ever followed through with it.

Dioneo wrote:Every version some people "threaten" to not move on, but I'm not sure if a significant number of people have ever followed through with it.

Yeah, but I'm totally going to do it this time!

Dioneo wrote:
removeelyvilon wrote:If many people start sticking to older versions, that doesn't exactly speak for the development of the game imo.

Every version some people "threaten" to not move on, but I'm not sure if a significant number of people have ever followed through with it.

I've been quite critical of some of the upcoming changes, but I for one will upgrade to the next version ASAP, because I like new and shiny things. I just have to win a few high elves before that...

Dioneo wrote:Every version some people "threaten" to not move on, but I'm not sure if a significant number of people have ever followed through with it.

Online players certainly haven't. Offline, who can say?

scorpionwarrior wrote:
Arrhythmia wrote:.10 is the only true version of crawl, come on guys it's obvious

.9 would be if any of the servers hosted it :p

.9 still has MD, and that's a huge problem for any putative definitive version

The vast majority of my play has been MuWz of Sif. The changes from .18 to .19 destroyed Sif Muna for the mummy. There's no way in hell I'm going to play in .20 where I can't heal with wand and have no possible way to escape Mannas. Looks like my dwindling interest in the game will be satisfied by maintaining a .18 presence. It's a shame, the game was fun.

Real talk: the Sif Muna change was probably necessary but holy moly is Sif garbage now. Sif buffs would be extremely good.

Also, the real definitive crawl version is the one that finally removes food.

Hellmonk wrote:Real talk: the Sif Muna change was probably necessary but holy moly is Sif garbage now. Sif buffs would be extremely good.

I am pretty certain that the majority don't read commits daily, therefore have no clue what Sif change you are talking about.

0.17 is the good shit

Magipi wrote:
Hellmonk wrote:Real talk: the Sif Muna change was probably necessary but holy moly is Sif garbage now. Sif buffs would be extremely good.

I am pretty certain that the majority don't read commits daily, therefore have no clue what Sif change you are talking about.

Probably the change to how her channeling power worked. I must admit I enjoyed her far more before that change as well.

I'd like to see a fork that combined some item destruction, encumberance system (if anyone else could stand it) PLUS some newer things like movement and combat changes, interface tweaks (eating/wand management), removal of branded ammo and possibly longer main Dungeon (not so sure about this part) and some of the newer changes like shorter Orc and shorter Lair branches (which worked out surprisingly well for me). Basically, I'd like some of the old flavor and zaniness, with more of the new improvements to regular progress and anti-tedium too.

Actually, I'd rather like to see all of that combined with the Yiufcrawl fork, which has a few nifty tweaks and just fun species choices (including high elves). If I had any clue how this stuff is made I might do it. But I'm not a programmer generally.

"Now this is absolutely positively the last straw!"

- someone about literally every change ever made to Crawl since day one

Can we use this as a space to note how Orc is way worse now than it used to be? Orc used to be way cooler when it was a) 3 levels and b) the stairs led to different chambers, which gave Orc a very unique feel. I like outright or come around to 95% of the changes to DCSS but I've never gotten there with this change.

Orc got way better when I didn't have to do as much of it, when more dangerous orcs became more prevalent throughout it, and when I no longer had to go up and down stairs a lot to fully explore it because a ton of it was always disconnected

Factorialite wrote:Can we use this as a space to note how Orc is way worse now than it used to be? Orc used to be way cooler when it was a) 3 levels and b) the stairs led to different chambers, which gave Orc a very unique feel. I like outright or come around to 95% of the changes to DCSS but I've never gotten there with this change.

Heh that's funny. I usually dislike every level removal (D:27 forever!), but cutting Orc from 4 to 2 was the first cut I liked (and even suggested before it was implemented).

ontoclasm wrote:"Now this is absolutely positively the last straw!"

- someone about literally every change ever made to Crawl since day one

That not everyone has quit playing the game yet, isn't exactly a good argument that things are going swell

Arrhythmia wrote:.10 is the only true version of crawl, come on guys it's obvious

This guy clearly remembers the glory days of the Naga! For everyone else, in .10 nagas gained constriction from level 1, which made them super OP in the early game. This was the version I was playing when I wrote the melee naga of Chei guide - constriction on D:1 gets you over the early game and into the max piety chei end game very smoothly. Nagas were the second most won race in the tournament after minotaurs. In .11 constriction was moved to level 13 for nagas, although octopodes got to keep it at level 1 (the bastards).

Now THAT's what I call the good ol' days.

My first ever win was following your chei naga guide, Tasonir

When I wanted to win a naga, I went back to 0.10 exactly for the early constriction. Wow, that was a really awful version

Someone unironically said this about rings of regeneration becoming amulets. I don't believe you.

I mean, I'm not going to mutiny and stay with an old version over regeneration rings, but that was a sad day for me too, because I used to love stacking regen rings on octopodes. That being said, it is pretty rare to have 2-3 regeneration rings worth using, as eventually you'll probably need it to be a regen randart to be worth the slot...

But a guy can dream: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=12408&p=174715

here you go OP

What? People have a nostalgic fondness for something in the past, dislike changes to that thing, and are complaining about it on the internet? HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE?!?! SOMETHING MUST BE DONE IMMEDIATELY!!!

ontoclasm wrote:"Now this is absolutely positively the last straw!"

- someone about literally every change ever made to Crawl since day one

I've just checked here: http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/player-status

Currently 54% of players play trunk (41 of 76). I don't have historical data, but this seems really low.

Tallying up a single sample of online games at one timepoint is an awful way to try to prove that people aren't playing trunk. But I can save you the time, since people are playing trunk. If you look historically at the proportion of games that are trunk between after the stable tournament until the next release:

Code:: <gammafunk> !lg * cv>=0.17 cv<=0.18-a !experimental !t0.17 !t0.18 / cv=0.18-a <Sequell> 413168/650992 games for * (cv>=0.17 cv<=0.18-a !experimental !t0.17 !t0.18): N=413168/650992 (63.47%) <gammafunk> !lg * cv>=0.18 cv<=0.19-a !experimental !t0.18 !t0.19 / cv=0.19-a <Sequell> 489347/722649 games for * (cv>=0.18 cv<=0.19-a !experimental !t0.18 !t0.19): N=489347/722649 (67.72%) <gammafunk> !lg * cv>=0.19 cv<=0.20-a !experimental !t0.19 / cv=0.20-a <Sequell> 487033/747952 games for * (cv>=0.19 cv<=0.20-a !experimental !t0.19): N=487033/747956 (65.12%)

there is not any major dive in trunk players. And if you look at the past month:

Code:: <gammafunk> !lg * cv>=0.19 cv<=0.20-a month !experimental !t0.19 / cv=0.20-a <Sequell> 96276/135326 games for * (cv>=0.19 cv<=0.20-a month !experimental !t0.19): N=96276/135326 (71.14%)

The "now people won't play trunk because they changed/removed X" trope never dies, but it also never comes true.

Of course, it is only a small fraction of extremely online players who would make a conscious decision to stop playing the most recent version. By far most players will just play the most recent version or the most recent "stable" version because usually that's the thing to do with software. Players aggrieved by changes they don't like are more likely to quit playing entirely. You run into players like that all over the place.

The Tavern

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