Wands deletion and mummy

[Gaius]

Now the mummies are officially the *far* worse version of VS. at leasy VS can drink curings!

+2 spellcasting CANNOT be a compensation for losing access to ONLY source of non-divine healing and haste. Mummies cannot use regen nor revivification, so when they're in low hp the only method to heal is resting.

Clarity removal was already a big loss for Mummies. Y'all know, that race rely heavily on god abilities and items to compensate their inability to drink. Item removal might work for other races which have access to many substitutes, but it's a big no-no for mummies.

Please don't say 'worship makhreb or something' - shouldn't the point of development focus on removing standariziation of gameplay, not enforcing it?

Just my little rants.

[Elf lover]

Just adapt or play older versions, there is no point in posting something here since devs are doing what they want without listening to feedback

[tabstorm]

Mummies are supposed to be extremely bad. Mummy nerfs are almost always good. It's possible that they aren't bad enough, if anything.

[NhorianScum]

#MuGozagLife

[Dioneo]

If mummies are truly unworkable without wands (which I'm not qualified to judge), that's an argument for changing mummies not for retaining wands in the game. It's actually a rather strange argument when you think about it; you make a race with specific restrictions, and then you introduce items which do nothing but cover for those restrictions.

[papilio]

If mummies are truly unworkable without wands (which I'm not qualified to judge), that's an argument for changing mummies not for retaining wands in the game. It's actually a rather strange argument when you think about it; you make a race with specific restrictions, and then you introduce items which do nothing but cover for those restrictions.

The point is that except divine means all ways to haste are gone (spell, wand), AND ways to heal wound are gone (wand, elixir card)
AND amulet of clarity is gone (except fixdart gambles) -- these *synergy* altogether to completely castrate mummies nowdays.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Mummies are still fine, I remember one of Chei who found first wand of heal wounds in Zot 2. Heal wounds are not that useful when you don't have haste and mummies never have haste now (unless that "feature" with Gozag). Wand of tele/haste were much more useful late game.

[Dioneo]

The point is that except divine means all ways to haste are gone (spell, wand), AND ways to heal wound are gone (wand, elixir card)
AND amulet of clarity is gone (except fixdart gambles) -- these *synergy* altogether to completely castrate mummies nowdays.

The point is that if a species is completely unplayable without certain item, then that species needs to be redesigned. There's no sense in simply introducing new items to "cover" up for such deficiencies, especially since those items will also be available to species without those deficiencies. If the mummy conduct is unworkable it should be removed or changed, not simply "patched up" by items.

If we felt that (for example) Trolls were made too difficult with their current armour restrictions, the sensible thing would be to allow them to wear armour, or to give them natural AC or something like that. Our response wouldn't be to introduce a "Wand of armour", which could then be used by every other race as well.

[papilio]

+plus: Buff lichform: change its spell level to 7 or less.
Now it's never worth to put that much exp to learn that.

[Rast]

you make a race with specific restrictions, and then you introduce items which do nothing but cover for those restrictions.

See also: DD and Dr

[Turukano]

A slight buff to mummies and lichform would be to make both immune to confusion.

[severen]

Clearly we need to give mummies an "empty bladder" cooldown based ability like Breathing that allows them to clear a "full bladder" effect that they get after drinking a potion. The "full bladder" effect makes them unable to drink until they squeeze one out.

[luckless]

Mummies were always supposed to be a peripheral/challenge species, and trunk is experimental. Wand removal is justified if it's good for the game as a whole. It might create some local problems, like with mummies, but these are best approached once it's clearer how wand removal changes the way most people play.

[duvessa]

the fact that none of the people who know how to play mummies have complained about yellow wand removal should be enough indication that it's a complete non-issue

[Implojin]

If mummies are truly unworkable without wands (which I'm not qualified to judge), that's an argument for changing mummies not for retaining wands in the game. It's actually a rather strange argument when you think about it; you make a race with specific restrictions, and then you introduce items which do nothing but cover for those restrictions.

I just 15 runed a Mu in current trunk and it seemed fine. The current version is no different than any other game in the past where you had bad luck with wand drops. Also, if players are uncomfortable taking a given character into extended, the option is always there to just go and ascend.

As usual, Tavern posters are blowing things entirely out of proportion.

[papilio]

the fact that none of the people who know how to play mummies have complained about yellow wand removal should be enough indication that it's a complete non-issue

Don't say like that you're the chief justice of Crawl who knows everything.
Labeling complainers as idiots, whinners or the uninformed noob is rude and unpleasant.

[Shard1697]

I just 15 runed a Mu in current trunk and it seemed fine. The current version is no different than any other game in the past where you had bad luck with wand drops. Also, if players are uncomfortable taking a given character into extended, the option is always there to just go and ascend.

As usual, Tavern posters are blowing things entirely out of proportion.

I will second that after going and completing 15 rune as Mu that winning as Mu in this patch(15 rune or no and even with my heavily suboptimal play) is still fine.

sound of a slide whistle

[severen]

I just 15 runed a Mu in current trunk and it seemed fine. The current version is no different than any other game in the past where you had bad luck with wand drops. Also, if players are uncomfortable taking a given character into extended, the option is always there to just go and ascend.

As usual, Tavern posters are blowing things entirely out of proportion.

I will second that after going and completing 15 rune as Mu that winning as Mu in this patch(15 rune or no and even with my heavily suboptimal play) is still fine.

sound of a slide whistle

It was always possible to win without a WoHW. But as the first quote basically already admits every game is now a game with "bad luck". Can you win any species with "bad luck"? Sure. But even the people trying to say everything is fine are tacitly admitting this is a net negative for the species.

Fine. Make mummies worse, I don't care I almost never play them. But they were made worse, even this first quote by a "good mummy player" basically admit they are now pre-determined to have "bad luck" in comparison to previous version's mummies.

[Gaius]

the fact that none of the people who know how to play mummies have complained about yellow wand removal should be enough indication that it's a complete non-issue

Two 15-runers, MuMo^Gozag and MuFi^Gozag under username crescens. (Mumo was played in downcrawl which is easier to take screenshots for community guide). Still ignorant about mummies, huh?

[Rast]

the fact that none of the people who know how to play mummies have complained about yellow wand removal should be enough indication that it's a complete non-issue

"The top one percent of players are OK with the devs making crawl harder"

[Shard1697]

I just 15 runed a Mu in current trunk and it seemed fine. The current version is no different than any other game in the past where you had bad luck with wand drops. Also, if players are uncomfortable taking a given character into extended, the option is always there to just go and ascend.

As usual, Tavern posters are blowing things entirely out of proportion.

I will second that after going and completing 15 rune as Mu that winning as Mu in this patch(15 rune or no and even with my heavily suboptimal play) is still fine.

sound of a slide whistle

It was always possible to win without a WoHW. But as the first quote basically already admits every game is now a game with "bad luck". Can you win any species with "bad luck"? Sure. But even the people trying to say everything is fine are tacitly admitting this is a net negative for the species.

it's a net negative for mummies but not in a large way and they are still roughly the same power level as before. it is ok for a species which exists to be a low power challenge species to be slightly worse!

also not getting heal wounds wand is not "bad luck", getting wand of heal wounds is good luck. a game without wand of heal wounds was normal!

[VeryAngryFelid]

"The top one percent of players are OK with the devs making crawl harder"

I think you shouldn't blame them for that. It's not their fault that crawl does not have explicit difficulty levels and they switch to speedrunning or doing crazy challenge games.

[Gaius]

Why all of you presume the wand only could be obtained via floor drop? Scroll of acquirement was the main method I used until 0.19 to maximize the chance to get wand of HW before extended.

If the trunk update for acq is reflected on the 0.20 regular then the only viable method to receive the wand is from loots. Still, I would risk running for early tomb or slime pits(If I have clarity source) in that case.

[asdu]

not getting heal wounds wand is not "bad luck", getting wand of heal wounds is good luck. a game without wand of heal wounds was normal!

Frankly, I disagree. Largely thanks to wand acquirement, I reckon I had at least one /hw in maybe half of my finished games (and I feel this a conservative estimate, tbh). Considering that most of my games in recent years were (bad) speedruns, I'm sure this percentage was higher for less dive-happy players who used to acquire wands most of the time like I did.