The Tavern

Since wands of hasting/teleportation/heal wounds are removed now,
Mennas/Silence spectres are too unfair for casters without +Blink gears or blink mutation.
But finding them is like gamble and potion of haste would not enough to run away for Nagas or Mummies.

So I think +Blink option should be more common in randarts. (Or one can officially introduce 'ring of blinking', seems worse alternative)

When were wands of haste/tele/heal removed, and if the latter is removed, is Deep Dwarf getting axed?

Elitist wrote:When were wands of haste/tele/heal removed, and if the latter is removed, is Deep Dwarf getting axed?

Nope, their recharging ability is replaced to ability of heal wounds. So DDs have no problem with it.

After this patch, mummies became fucking crap. (which were already crap before)

Wand of heal wounds were extremely vital for mummies, especially in late/postend games. I bet that devs didn't played mummies in 15 rune games after this patch.

papilio wrote:
Elitist wrote:When were wands of haste/tele/heal removed, and if the latter is removed, is Deep Dwarf getting axed?

Nope, their recharging ability is replaced to ability of heal wounds. So DDs have no problem with it.

After this patch, mummies became fucking crap. (which were already crap before)

Wand of heal wounds were extremely vital for mummies, especially in late/postend games. I bet that devs didn't played mummies in 15 rune games after this patch.

So DD are axed, got it.

Wow, that's a pretty huge change. I am somewhat surprised by the removal of the wand of hasting, though - isn't still there the potion? I don't see much of a difference, unless you are a mummy, who don't exactly need nerfs (although it frees some inventory space...).

Is the rationale explained somewhere, or is it simply being tried out?

That won't fix this problem. We are just fucked up

Now mummies have only two gods viable on 15 rune games; Gozag and Nemelex.
I would try Mu^Nem in up-dated Crawl after work today for checking it... But I guess it would be fucking painful.

To be fair you can win 15 rune games with Formicids without too much difficulty and they can't haste or teleport. So there's no reason you can't do it with Mummies, it will just be more difficult. Mummies even get torment immunity.

You don't need heal wounds to win as a mummy... I did my mummy win as an Ash follower with no heal wounds wand, diving into Tartarus for my 3rd rune. Mummies biggest concern is not endgame/postgame, it's early game where they are actually crap, and they wouldn't have heal wounds then anyways

Shard1697 wrote:You don't need heal wounds to win as a mummy... I did my mummy win as an Ash follower with no heal wounds wand, diving into Tartarus for my 3rd rune. Mummies biggest concern is not endgame/postgame, it's early game where they are actually crap, and they wouldn't have heal wounds then anyways

That win is two years ago, much things are changed.
There were no doom hounds nor Tzitzimimeh. Shadow fiends were weak and casted Dispeal Undead with less probs/damage.

tabstorm wrote:To be fair you can win 15 rune games with Formicids without too much difficulty and they can't haste or teleport. So there's no reason you can't do it with Mummies, it will just be more difficult. Mummies even get torment immunity.

Formicid have much better apts on using weapons, armours and shields, and capable of drinking !HW. Latter part is the biggest difference.

papilio wrote:That win is two years ago, much things are changed.
There were no doom hounds nor Tzitzimimeh. Shadow fiends were weak and casted Dispeal Undead with less probs/damage.

Ok? I could have gone for an easier 3rd rune either way. Or scummed it up for XP. etc.

I can win as mummy again without heal wounds wand/gozag/mak if you want

Shard1697 wrote:
papilio wrote:That win is two years ago, much things are changed.
There were no doom hounds nor Tzitzimimeh. Shadow fiends were weak and casted Dispeal Undead with less probs/damage.
Ok? I could have gone for an easier 3rd rune either way. Or scummed it up for XP. etc.

I can win as mummy again without heal wounds wand/gozag/mak if you want

OK, you said you can do, just try.
Of course with 15 runes, without Gozag/Makhleb/Nemelex, no abyss grinding. Don't forget Haste spell (Which you casted 276 times in the run you showed me), wand are all gone.

I think you can do it anyway, but I strongly guess you'd think "mummies have became fucking crap of crap even more".

papilio wrote:There were no doom hounds nor Tzitzimimeh. Shadow fiends were weak and casted Dispeal Undead with less probs/damage.

doom hounds are harmless in extended and dispel undead still doesn't have range
yeah extended is harder without haste but when you make an easy thing harder it can still be easy afterwards, and thats what im certain extended is going to be

papilio wrote:Mennas/Silence spectres are too unfair for casters without +Blink gears or blink mutation.

mennas can only spawn once and silence spectres can only spawn from vaults though

CanOfWorms wrote:
papilio wrote:Mennas/Silence spectres are too unfair for casters without +Blink gears or blink mutation.

mennas can only spawn once and silence spectres can only spawn from vaults though

np, silent spectres can appear on abyss, tartarus and zig. also, random pan lords can have sil too.

well, silent spectres still can't actually kill casters, balancing for ziggurats is pointless and you shouldn't be engaging pan lords

yes silent spectres can't kill anything by alone, but can become cause of death to caster. esp when you meet her in tartarus w/o tele wand.

and the case of pan lords, I know they are very unpopular, but still think they can be possible to become a cause of unavoidable death to caster. you always have chance to drop adjacent to lord when you going to next level of pan.

well, but most of my concern is just imagine. I actually think that 'deadly silence' problem can be solved by training some melee skills even you are caster. extended game gives tons of surplus experiences.

This sort of thinking really confuses me. If we removed Wyrmbane, would people ask how they're supposed to kill dragons?

Healing and haste wands are rare items that even 15-rune characters are not guaranteed to receive. The characters who found them got an insane power boost and the characters that didn't were still perfectly capable of winning.

Lasty wrote:This sort of thinking really confuses me. If we removed Wyrmbane, would people ask how they're supposed to kill dragons?

Healing and haste wands are rare items that even 15-rune characters are not guaranteed to receive. The characters who found them got an insane power boost and the characters that didn't were still perfectly capable of winning.

Up to 0.19.1, 15-rune characters (to more honest, most 3-rune characters) were almost guaranteed to get top-tier wands via wishing wands with acq scrolls.
Comparing chance of getting Wyrmbane and chance of big3 wands is ridiculous.

Also I have been consistently talking about just mummies and mages vs. silence, which are special cases.
In general other cases, there wouldn't be much difference with removal of those wands.

If you're worried about what characters with no offense except conjurations do to silent specters, then shouldn't the discussion focus on wands of acid or maybe disc of storms, both of which still exist?

I mean, an even more trivial solution is "don't make Vaults/extended characters that are completely disabled by silence".

papilio wrote:Up to 0.19.1, 15-rune characters (to more honest, most 3-rune characters) were almost guaranteed to get top-tier wands via wishing wands with acq scrolls.

Right, this is why devs didn't have much success with making extended hard. No matter what they brought, we'd just haste ourselves, apport a rune and tele away, healing as needed. I think extended will be great now instead of usual exercise in patience it used to be.

Devs, please make teleport delayed on current floor after picking up a rune if pan/hell lord is still alive.

Lasty wrote:If you're worried about what characters with no offense except conjurations do to silent specters, then shouldn't the discussion focus on wands of acid or maybe disc of storms, both of which still exist?

I mean, an even more trivial solution is "don't make Vaults/extended characters that are completely disabled by silence".

You have possibility of situation that after moving to another map in Pan
you drop directly near the Pan Lord that have silence with spd19, hard melee hit, rElec+.

Just build all your characters to be able to fight pan lords in melee.

tabstorm wrote:Just build all your characters to be able to fight pan lords in melee.

Is this a meme or joke?

I'm not sure what part of my post you're addressing. Everything I wrote seems to apply in the case you're describing.

edit: Tho frankly it'd be better if it didn't -- it'd be nice if there were more situations, particularly in postend content, that didn't have clear solutions.

papilio wrote:
Lasty wrote:If you're worried about what characters with no offense except conjurations do to silent specters, then shouldn't the discussion focus on wands of acid or maybe disc of storms, both of which still exist?

I mean, an even more trivial solution is "don't make Vaults/extended characters that are completely disabled by silence".

You have possibility of situation that after moving to another map in Pan
you drop directly near the Pan Lord that have silence with spd19, hard melee hit, rElec+.

Sack of spiders still fuck up them badly

papilio wrote:
Shard1697 wrote:
papilio wrote:That win is two years ago, much things are changed.
There were no doom hounds nor Tzitzimimeh. Shadow fiends were weak and casted Dispeal Undead with less probs/damage.
Ok? I could have gone for an easier 3rd rune either way. Or scummed it up for XP. etc.

I can win as mummy again without heal wounds wand/gozag/mak if you want

OK, you said you can do, just try.
Of course with 15 runes, without Gozag/Makhleb/Nemelex, no abyss grinding. Don't forget Haste spell (Which you casted 276 times in the run you showed me), wand are all gone.

I think you can do it anyway, but I strongly guess you'd think "mummies have became fucking crap of crap even more".

Ok, I did it(MuFi^Oka). The whole thing was fairly academic because I knew from the start that, like I said, early game which is most dangerous for any character is where you need to worry as mummy because you don't have XP yet and rF-/no potions is the biggest deal there. Lategame you have enough XP(+gear) to make things more even compared to other species, extended you have more XP than you'd ever need even with -2 apts.

As expected-

-I died 7 times in the early game, only 1 time later on solely due to being an idiot around Nikola and not reading tele, and not at all in extended. Only really scary thing was dis serpent of hell because it moves fast, can dispel and hits hard... but HW wand would not really have helped in my encounters with it because its damage is so bursty.

After having done this nothing has changed about my opinion. You should not be relying upon HW wand as a crutch to win as any species, including Mu, and lacking it does not really change how I play much. Lacking haste matters more, but the game is certainly still winnable(a better, more patient player than me could have done this in 1 or 2 tries). Losing HW wand is not a big change to Mu power level.

Shard1697 wrote:Ok, I did it(MuFi^Oka). The whole thing was fairly academic because I knew from the start that, like I said, early game which is most dangerous for any character is where you need to worry as mummy because you don't have XP yet and rF-/no potions is the biggest deal there. Lategame you have enough XP(+gear) to make things more even compared to other species, extended you have more XP than you'd ever need even with -2 apts.

As expected-
-I died 7 times in the early game, only 1 time later on solely due to being an idiot around Nikola and not reading tele, and not at all in extended. Only really scary thing was dis serpent of hell because it moves fast, can dispel and hits hard... but HW wand would not really have helped in my encounters with it because its damage is so bursty.

After having done this nothing has changed about my opinion. You should not be relying upon HW wand as a crutch to win as any species, including Mu, and lacking it does not really change how I play much. Lacking haste matters more, but the game is certainly still winnable(a better, more patient player than me could have done this in 1 or 2 tries). Losing HW wand is not a big change to Mu power level.

Very good.
Though, I didn't say the winning prob of Mummy became zero percent.
Yes, it's still winnable, but it's certainly true that mummies, which are already hard, got a big nerf, and the compensation was not enough.

No, it is not a big nerf to lose heal wounds. That is the entire point of my post. Heal wounds wand is good when you get it, but first off, you usually don't get it in 3-rune games, and in many situations where you get to low HP using it is effectively just treading water when you should be getting the fuck out of dodge instead. It's an overvalued item which doesn't show up that often and was/is not an important part of playing a mummy.

Mummies lost non-divine means of healing wounds AND hasting, that's huge

Only if you ignore the context of those wands. It is not huge in actual play because of what I have already mentioned-healing is strong early on but falls off later in combat drastically because in serious combat you will be losing as much or more HP than you gain with HW, unlike earlygame where it is very good(but you would almost never have HW wand in earlygame). Having a "non-divine means of healing wounds" isn't that important, especially later on(which is when you were likely to have it!). Both HW/haste wands were rare to find in 3 rune games, so they didn't affect mummy power levels much playing for winrate... and they don't affect mummy power levels much in extended either because extended is easy due to huge amounts of XP available. Losing haste wand matters more than HW wand, but it is still not a huge deal.

I 100% agree with HW - it was extremely good only when found before I dunno Lair and after that only to reset a normal fight which first rolls were gone oddly bad.

I don't agree with haste, burning ?acq on wand usually meant I got one before the 2nd rune or so, and haste makes most of the game a breeze - because you suddenly are able to run, position and do whatever you want in a broken way. Plus you're 50% stronger using spells or melee.
While I actually never abused (or often used) in most of my 3 runes games, because they're easy anyway, I think many enemies and vaults in extended are balanced around being able to haste, and no amount of infinite experience is going truly to offset that, unless using op shit like summons.

I obliviously do think both normal extended is still winnable in 99,8% of cases, but also that \haste removal is still one of the biggest and most significant nerf in DCSS. For most aspects this is a good chance, but I hope there will be some more tuning around some enemies and sideaspects of this commit.

The Tavern

Make +Blink option on randatrs more common

Make +Blink option on randatrs more common

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Re: Make +Blink option on randatrs more common

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