Early game is not important


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Post Thursday, 15th December 2016, 20:26

Early game is not important

That's something I realized recently. The meme goes like that "early game is important because it's hard and if you lose it, you lose the entire game". Makes sense right? Except it doesn't. It only matters if you're trying to streak, and the matter of fact is that most people don't, just like most people don't play optimally. For the majority, dying in earlygame is just losing 5-15 minutes - not a big deal. Thus, early game (and optimal play, which is something not even people using the term unironically engage in) are meaningless and shouldn't be considered for people that just want to win the game, man - which is what most Crawl players are!

It's like Demigods - sure they're good at extremely early game due to high HP, MP and stats, but who the heck cares, a Human has better XP apt, skill apts and will have a god soon. It's not even comparable!
Last edited by Sar on Thursday, 15th December 2016, 20:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Thursday, 15th December 2016, 20:28

Re: Early game is not important

Humans are bad too. It is Na and Ds who rule ;)
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Post Thursday, 15th December 2016, 20:43

Re: Early game is not important

This thread should be renamed "Remove Early Game"
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Post Thursday, 15th December 2016, 20:54

Re: Early game is not important

I like early game though, so how about no?
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Post Thursday, 15th December 2016, 21:17

Re: Early game is not important

Very well then
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Post Thursday, 15th December 2016, 21:19

Re: Early game is not important

I don't really care about streaking but I do try to win every game. The early game is important for reasons you already touched on. It's a fun and useful thing to try to get it right, and if you do, not only do you get to play the rest of the game, but the rest of the game is easier!

There's another aspect which I think some people fail to apprehend: If you don't like the early game, then you should try even harder than someone who does! The people who spend the smallest proportion of their crawl playing time in D:1-4 are precisely those people who spend a little bit of extra time thinking on those floors so they make it past them most of the time.

Suppose I really don't care about what happens on D:1-2 so I just mash otab and only survive 10% of the time, but I blitz through in like two minutes.

The expected time to make it past D:2 is now 20 minutes! Only someone who really loves the early game would be willing to play carelessly!

When I started playing I was afflicted with the same bias. I didn't care about winrate, I just wanted to see rune branches, to encounter the monsters deep in the dungeon. It was very frustrating to find myself losing decent characters in Lair, and then having to this stupid ritual of rolling the dice on new characters for an hour until I made it to Lair again.

If you want to practice completing Lair, you should maximize the number of Lair attempts you get over time. In order to do this, and moreover, to have better characters when you do make it to Lair...focus on nailing the early game!

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Post Thursday, 15th December 2016, 21:27

Re: Early game is not important

n1000 wrote:I don't really care about streaking but I do try to win every game. The early game is important for reasons you already touched on. It's a fun and useful thing to try to get it right, and if you do, not only do you get to play the rest of the game, but the rest of the game is easier!

There's another aspect which I think some people fail to apprehend: If you don't like the early game, then you should try even harder than someone who does! The people who spend the smallest proportion of their crawl playing time in D:1-4 are precisely those people who spend a little bit of extra time thinking on those floors so they make it past them most of the time.

Suppose I really don't care about what happens on D:1-2 so I just mash otab and only survive 10% of the time, but I blitz through in like two minutes.

The expected time to make it past D:2 is now 20 minutes! Only someone who really loves the early game would be willing to play carelessly!

When I started playing I was afflicted with the same bias. I didn't care about winrate, I just wanted to see rune branches, to encounter the monsters deep in the dungeon. It was very frustrating to find myself losing decent characters in Lair, and then having to this stupid ritual of rolling the dice on new characters for an hour until I made it to Lair again.

If you want to practice completing Lair, you should maximize the number of Lair attempts you get over time. In order to do this, and moreover, to have better characters when you do make it to Lair...focus on nailing the early game!

Fwiw i autopilot most of my d1-4 games and make it through roughly 80-90% of those, i can bump that percentage up to about 95% if i slow down and pay attention.
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Post Thursday, 15th December 2016, 21:27

Re: Early game is not important

n1000 wrote:Suppose I really don't care about what happens on D:1-2 so I just mash otab and only survive 10% of the time, but I blitz through in like two minutes.
10% is a very low estimate! You survive playing badly much more often than that, especially with good starts.

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Post Thursday, 15th December 2016, 22:27

Re: Early game is not important

If it's a troll then 2 minutes is enough to get you to like D:6 with 90% chance.

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Post Thursday, 15th December 2016, 22:45

Re: Early game is not important

Sar wrote:For the majority, dying in earlygame is just losing 5-15 minutes - not a big deal.
How are those 5-15 minutes any less "lost" if you survive early game? If I play for 3 hours and then win, haven't I "lost" exactly as much time as I would have "lost" by playing for 3 hours and then dying? The Orb isn't the Fountain of Youth, I'm 3 hours closer to my real life death either way.

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Post Thursday, 15th December 2016, 22:51

Re: Early game is not important

duvessa wrote:
Sar wrote:For the majority, dying in earlygame is just losing 5-15 minutes - not a big deal.
How are those 5-15 minutes any less "lost" if you survive early game? If I play for 3 hours and then win, haven't I "lost" exactly as much time as I would have "lost" by playing for 3 hours and then dying? The Orb isn't the Fountain of Youth, I'm 3 hours closer to my real life death either way.


Aren't elves immortal?

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Post Thursday, 15th December 2016, 22:53

Re: Early game is not important

duvessa wrote:How are those 5-15 minutes any less "lost" if you survive early game?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhnsC2V4_0w
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Post Thursday, 15th December 2016, 22:57

Re: Early game is not important

You say that most people don't care about optimal play (doesn't exist anyway) or streaks, only about winning the game.

Sar, HOW DOES I WIN GAEM IF I DIE IN THE EARLY GAEM?

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Post Thursday, 15th December 2016, 23:02

Re: Early game is not important

maybe try reading the opening post

edit: the early game can just be bruteforced, dying once or twice isn't a big deal

people say ridiculous stuff like "the most important places by which the strength of characters must be judged is pre-Temple" and that's silly
Last edited by Sar on Thursday, 15th December 2016, 23:03, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Thursday, 15th December 2016, 23:02

Re: Early game is not important

removeelyvilon wrote:
duvessa wrote:
Sar wrote:For the majority, dying in earlygame is just losing 5-15 minutes - not a big deal.
How are those 5-15 minutes any less "lost" if you survive early game? If I play for 3 hours and then win, haven't I "lost" exactly as much time as I would have "lost" by playing for 3 hours and then dying? The Orb isn't the Fountain of Youth, I'm 3 hours closer to my real life death either way.


Aren't elves immortal?
Yeah, but not invincible. Shortly after you humans finish killing yourselves and all the plants with pollution and global warming, we're going to die too.

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Post Thursday, 15th December 2016, 23:49

Re: Early game is not important

Why would you want to autopilot through the best part of the game, though?

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Post Thursday, 15th December 2016, 23:53

Re: Early game is not important

Actually I think D:1~5 is designed as too difficult.

No, it's not fun nor need to be the best part of the game. Repeating early floors again and again is silly.
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Post Friday, 16th December 2016, 00:24

Re: Early game is not important

Lategame is not important for most crawl players either because they never get there. Checkmate.

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Post Friday, 16th December 2016, 00:27

Re: Early game is not important

papilio wrote:Actually I think D:1~5 is designed as too difficult.

No, it's not fun nor need to be the best part of the game. Repeating early floors again and again is silly.


I know i will not be good as u in the next 12 months and probably more, but since i disagree take it as just talking about the feeling
Restarting every 5 mins is like factory production. I was used to it in my spriggan tries.
Early D is fun in the part where u pick the best one of ur kitchen garden to meet the taste, and wait for the other fruits to be mature (exclusions, go deeper, stealthy play, come back again). Octopode lessons.
I enjoy the early even when i die whenever it is able to give me some suspance and expectations, pretty the same as when any later game trouble gives the feeling like a big bet in poker. Kitchen Garden Kung Fu is my way :ugeek:

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Post Friday, 16th December 2016, 00:41

Re: Early game is not important

Hellmonk wrote:Lategame is not important for most crawl players either because they never get there

Replace "lategame" with "postendgame" and you'll have the official Crawl dev stance, actually.

However, this is different. Lategame strength is precisely important because most players' characters only get there rarely, so they want to maximize their chance of winning if they want to win.
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Post Friday, 16th December 2016, 00:47

Re: Early game is not important

asdu wrote:Why would you want to autopilot through the best part of the game, though?
it's not the best part of the game. I'm in no way invested in my character if I don't have any cool toys yet, I only care about playing properly once I get run-defining items

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Post Friday, 16th December 2016, 00:55

Re: Early game is not important

Sar wrote:
Hellmonk wrote:Lategame is not important for most crawl players either because they never get there

Replace "lategame" with "postendgame" and you'll have the official Crawl dev stance, actually.

However, this is different. Lategame strength is precisely important because most players' characters only get there rarely, so they want to maximize their chance of winning if they want to win.

A significant fraction of players don't even get there at all, ergo those players should actually maximize their midgame (lair-2runes) power to try to reach lategame in the first place.

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Post Friday, 16th December 2016, 00:58

Re: Early game is not important

I never said midgame was not important...

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Post Friday, 16th December 2016, 01:08

Re: Early game is not important

Well I'm glad we've found common ground on this topic. I think we can agree that the part of the game that's most important depends on player skill and playstyle. Many taverners talk about earlygame mattering the most because they do streak, or play for winrate, or believe that style of play gives a better estimate of objective species balance, or because it's extremely dank to tell people that they should win 99% of all games and that they're baddies for dumping 5 minute investment player ghosts all over early dungeon or ever dying past D:6.

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Post Friday, 16th December 2016, 01:11

Re: Early game is not important

who would trade iron rod @ depths for an ice blast in d:2 ?

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Post Friday, 16th December 2016, 02:57

Re: Early game is not important

Shard1697 wrote:
n1000 wrote:Suppose I really don't care about what happens on D:1-2 so I just mash otab and only survive 10% of the time, but I blitz through in like two minutes.
10% is a very low estimate! You survive playing badly much more often than that, especially with good starts.


You're right that was too low of an estimate. It looks like half of online games end on the first three floors. In any case, I just made up the numbers to illustrate why it might be worth slowing down if you're sick of playing early game all the time.
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Post Friday, 16th December 2016, 07:15

Re: Early game is not important

neverEnough wrote:who would trade iron rod @ depths for an ice blast in d:2 ?

I would. I'll have other tools at Depths anyway.
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Post Friday, 16th December 2016, 07:55

Re: Early game is not important

Hellmonk wrote:believe that style of play gives a better estimate of objective species balance

I guess that's what I'm having a problem with, yes. I respect people who streak.

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Post Friday, 16th December 2016, 16:44

Re: Early game is not important

Sar wrote:That's something I realized recently. The meme goes like that "early game is important because it's hard and if you lose it, you lose the entire game". Makes sense right? Except it doesn't. It only matters if you're trying to streak [...]


I agree. I do find the early game the most exciting part of crawl, though. So, I care more about it than about any other part. Lately, I started to C-q some characters post Lair that I found uninteresting but not powerful enough to finish the game on autopilot. I think, that's a good habit for me, it's clearer than suicide-through-not-retreating.
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Post Wednesday, 21st December 2016, 16:44

Re: Early game is not important

I find this idea of "lets just make everything early game as stupid as possible since most people just try to tab spam through it" pretty bad.

If thats your logic why not just remove d1-5 and start every pc at lvl 8? If parts of the game are dumb and unnecessary and people just skip through it as fast as possible...... then just remove them.

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Post Wednesday, 21st December 2016, 21:27

Re: Early game is not important

lethediver wrote:lets just make everything early game as stupid as possible

Early game is great fun, though. It's just not important!
lethediver wrote:why not just remove d1-5

You'll just shift the unimportant phase further. It's not about difficulty, it's about time investment.
Last edited by Sar on Wednesday, 21st December 2016, 21:43, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Wednesday, 21st December 2016, 21:34

Re: Early game is not important

I hope you meant "shiFt" :)
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Post Wednesday, 21st December 2016, 21:43

Re: Early game is not important

Wow, thanks. Fixed.
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Post Wednesday, 21st December 2016, 22:08

Re: Early game is not important

Sar wrote:That's something I realized recently. The meme goes like that "early game is important because it's hard and if you lose it, you lose the entire game". Makes sense right? Except it doesn't. It only matters if you're trying to streak, and the matter of fact is that most people don't, just like most people don't play optimally.

Guess what, most people don't play at all.

Yes, I agree that concentration there isn't that important, a mistake in early game isn't as bad as a mistake in Depths because of time lost to get there. However, unless you like spending 95% of your playing time in D 1-4, then there comes a time in which you have to take it seriously and handle it as important, which, in my view, makes it important.
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Post Wednesday, 21st December 2016, 22:10

Re: Early game is not important

Shtopit wrote:Guess what, most people don't play at all.

That's such a clever and relevant observation!
Shtopit wrote:unless you like spending 95% of your playing time in D 1-4, then there comes a time in which you have to take it seriously and handle it as important

Or you can just take a combo that doesn't suck.

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Post Thursday, 22nd December 2016, 10:33

Re: Early game is not important

From now on im only playing DDFi until they nerf it or rebalance their game.

Im gonna build up a streak and the devs gonna pay for it.
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Post Thursday, 22nd December 2016, 16:07

Re: Early game is not important

dynast wrote:From now on im only playing DDFi until they nerf it or rebalance their game.


It's like saying "I am going to play on the easiest difficulty level until they nerf it or rebalance the game". Being easy is the point of easiest difficulty setting...
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Post Thursday, 22nd December 2016, 17:58

Re: Early game is not important

Why not just make a difficulty setting instead of tying difficulty into race? race should be about flavor and playstyle, or you would think so based on the stated rationale every time a race is removed.

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Post Friday, 23rd December 2016, 01:16

Re: Early game is not important

easy is a playstyle.
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Post Friday, 23rd December 2016, 01:21

Re: Early game is not important

Look at n1000 acting like people don't just blow through a bunch of games drunk. =p

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Post Friday, 23rd December 2016, 04:14

Re: Early game is not important

PleasingFungus wrote:easy is a playstyle.


Not sure. I enjoyed SpAK in my branch when all monsters had triple HP because it was hard yet playstyle was similar to standard SpAK except I couldn't kill many monsters with sleep stabs and had to use distortion much more often (for banishing Orbs of fire, for example).
So as you can see there are several definitions of playstyle.
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Post Friday, 23rd December 2016, 04:47

Re: Early game is not important

lethediver wrote:Why not just make a difficulty setting instead of tying difficulty into race?

Because some races will always be better than the others - backgrounds have much less influence on the game then races and even here we have some very obvious winners and losers. Might as well embrace it, I suppose, instead of either trying to buff mummies somehow to make them as good as humans and also nerf orcs to make them as bad as humans, or just removing all the races and making some new ones - like "Humans, but with more Int than Dex".

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Post Friday, 23rd December 2016, 05:10

Re: Early game is not important

Sar wrote:Because some races will always be better than the others - backgrounds have much less influence on the game then races and even here we have some very obvious winners and losers. Might as well embrace it, I suppose, instead of either trying to buff mummies somehow to make them as good as humans and also nerf orcs to make them as bad as humans, or just removing all the races and making some new ones - like "Humans, but with more Int than Dex".


Races are currently unbalanced exactly because there are no difficulty levels. Many other games have races relatively balanced, and classes too. It just does not make any sense to balance races when there are no difficulty levels because that would mean only a small portion of player would keep playing (too hard for beginners, too easy for experienced players).
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Post Friday, 23rd December 2016, 05:16

Re: Early game is not important

It seems like even in games balanced for competition there are usually characters and strategies that are considered obviously better. Balancing is hard.

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Post Friday, 23rd December 2016, 05:34

Re: Early game is not important

Yet the difference is much less than between DD and Mu. My point is that those games make it possible to have very hard game with equivalent of DD of Makhleb or very easy game with equivalent of Mu of Qazlal because it depends more on difficulty level than on race.
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Post Saturday, 24th December 2016, 09:07

Re: Early game is not important

Sar wrote:It seems like even in games balanced for competition there are usually characters and strategies that are considered obviously better. Balancing is hard.


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