Remove hill orcs

[gfgf45550]

Hill orcs are now a relatively uninteresting species in terms of gameplay, feeling somewhat like minotaurs but less monstrous. Their theme originates from Tolkien, a source of lore that crawl is trying to borrow less from these days. Their specialisation at axes not withstanding, this particular Tolkien reference isn't particularly interesting.

(Give ogres ability to worship Beogh)

[jwoodward48ss]

Good luck. BOG, or Beogh, is Bryan's Orc God. They'll never remove orcs, NEVEEEEER!

Anyway, I think that the fighty-types are pretty okay:
*Halfing is small and can choose between sneakystealthystabmage and heavyarmourcleaverfighter.
*Minotaur is like playing Trog...
*Deep Dwarf is weird and funky.
*Hill Orcs are good at more than just axes and armour... they're also decent at some magics. And they're some of the best Invo-aptituders.

[gfgf45550]

Halfing is small and can choose between sneakystealthystabmage and heavyarmourcleaverfighter.

They should be removed, too. Nobody will play with halfling as a heavyarmourcleaverfighter, stealth is unplayable without hexes in modern crawl. Nobody uses slings, it's the worst type of ranged weapons at all.

Minotaur is like playing Trog...

I didn't say something bad about them.

Deep Dwarf is weird and funky.

Deep dwarves are unique due to very unusual gameplay.

Hill Orcs are good at more than just axes and armour... they're also decent at some magics. And they're some of the best Invo-aptituders.

It doesn't make them unique. If somebody wants to play hybrid, there a plenty of other more suitable races for that (Dg, Ds, Na, VS, Fo, Te, Dr).

Most of the players who choose HO make pure melee fighters from them:

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XO4YCPATb: !lg * HO won recentish s=class%
beem: 944 games for * (HO won recentish): 350x Fighter (37.08%), 168x Gladiator (17.80%), 103x Berserker (10.91%), 71x Monk (7.52%), 34x Abyssal Knight (3.60%), 24x Wanderer (2.54%), 21x Warper (2.22%), 19x Skald (2.01%), 17x Artificer (1.80%), 16x Hunter (1.69%), 14x Fire Elementalist (1.48%), 13x Chaos Knight (1.38%), 13x Wizard (1.38%), 13x Assassin (1.38%), 12x Transmuter (1.27%), 11x Ice Elementa...

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XO4YCPATb: !lg * warrior-mage won recentish s=crace%
beem: 1942 games for * (warrior-mage won recentish): 178x Spriggan (9.17%), 153x Draconian (7.88%), 134x Merfolk (6.90%), 122x Vampire (6.28%), 121x Demonspawn (6.23%), 107x Octopode (5.51%), 98x Felid (5.05%), 89x Naga (4.58%), 88x High Elf (4.53%), 82x Ogre (4.22%), 75x Troll (3.86%), 67x Minotaur (3.45%), 65x Vine Stalker (3.35%), 62x Hill Orc (3.19%), 58x Gargoyle (2.99%), 56x Deep Dwarf (2.88%), ...

Even minotaurs are more common!

  Code:

XO4YCPATb: !lg * mage won recentish s=crace%
beem: 3366 games for * (mage won recentish): 459x Deep Elf (13.64%), 297x Gargoyle (8.82%), 269x Demonspawn (7.99%), 235x Draconian (6.98%), 166x High Elf (4.93%), 138x Deep Dwarf (4.10%), 135x Naga (4.01%), 128x Tengu (3.80%), 121x Demigod (3.59%), 114x Mummy (3.39%), 108x Human (3.21%), 104x Octopode (3.09%), 104x Minotaur (3.09%), 99x Merfolk (2.94%), 97x Felid (2.88%), 97x Formicid (2.88%), 83x Va...

Here are HO are even not listed!

[Sar]

nice nickname

Anyway, I'd rather see Mi go (get it?) and maybe HO apts adjusted accordingly, though they'd be fine without adjustments either.

[removeelyvilon]

Out of minotaur and hill orc, hill orc is clearly the more interesting one. So I'd rather axe monotaur.

[duvessa]

I strongly disagree. Minotaur has the pretense of a unique mechanic (a shame that the retaliation ds mutations and riposte exist...) and its aptitudes lead to more varied and interesting characters, particularly when it comes to spell selection. Both species are basically just more powerful versions of humans, though.

[Cimanyd]

If the ability to wield GCs/GSCs counts as unique, then so should the ability to worship Beogh (and that's a lot more interesting than the headbutt).

[gfgf45550]

If the ability to wield GCs/GSCs counts as unique, then so should the ability to worship Beogh (and that's a lot more interesting than the headbutt).

Beogh can become a god of ogres. It isn't a problem at all.

[scorpionwarrior]

I hate orcs so much, why did the worst tolkien fantasy race end up being the only one left in crawl

[Sprucery]

I hate orcs so much, why did the worst tolkien fantasy race end up being the only one left in crawl

If something, we should have Ents.

[Sar]

Orcs are the best Tolkien race, though.

[Shtopit]

I hate orcs so much, why did the worst tolkien fantasy race end up being the only one left in crawl

If something, we should have Ents.

A slow race, without access to armour, larger than ogres and trolls, with some random treelike mutations (thorns, polearm range, poison brand, barkskin....) sounds like fun to me.

[Rast]

If something, we should have Ents.

Someone suggested a race the other month that had treeform ability.

Problem is that treeform is an autowin in the early floors and suicide for most of the game.

[gfgf45550]

Problem is that treeform is an autowin in the early floors and suicide for most of the game.

Like berserking. But it doesn't mean, that we should remove it.

[BabyRage]

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XO4YCPATb

What a great name.