Remove racism from crawl!


If it doesn't fit anywhere else, it belongs here. Also, come here if you just need to get hammered.

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Mines Malingerer

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Post Wednesday, 7th December 2016, 20:16

Remove racism from crawl!

I won't talk about that every race in game is diferent, and some achievements, that are available for elves, are unreachable for trolls and vice versa (for example, maximal intelligence, MP, etc). I can tolerate for this time.

But the game has a big problem named BEOGH.

He does a lot of really nusty things:
  • He hates all races except orcs.
  • He appreciates holy war against other religions.
  • He encourages such a playstyle, when the player prefers powerful, "clean" orcs to weak or ill. It is natural eugenics!
  • The player becomes "messiah" and can walk on water. It looks like a reference to one of the real religions. It's simply unacceptable!

REMOVE BEOGH, IF YOU ARE PROGRESSIVE PEOPLE FROM PROGRESSIVE SOCIETY, WHICH IS FREE FROM RACIAL OR RELIGIOUS STEREOTYPES!

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Post Wednesday, 7th December 2016, 21:03

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

The funny thing is there are plenty of reasons to remove beogh that have nothing to do with some grand farting on about some perceived thrust towards progressivism in crawl

The unfunny thing is the OP

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Post Wednesday, 7th December 2016, 21:14

gfgf45550 wrote:PROGRESSIVE PEOPLE FROM PROGRESSIVE SOCIETY, WHICH IS FREE FROM [...] RELIGIOUS STEREOTYPES!

Religious stereotypes, mhmm.

Imagine the following: somebody from a progressive society converts from one god to another, e.g. from God to Allah, from Allah to Krishna etc.

Will the former god send berserking trolls e.g. to punish him?

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Post Wednesday, 7th December 2016, 21:28

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

gfgf45550 wrote:[list][*]He hates all races except orcs.


He hates orcs too, you can tell because he allows orcs to worship him.
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Post Wednesday, 7th December 2016, 21:38

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

Crawl is inherently racist, you can't remove racism from Crawl without removing aptitudes, stats and racial mutations.

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Post Wednesday, 7th December 2016, 21:55

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

Just gonna point out, there's a pretty big difference between fantasy "races" (which crawl in a beautiful moment termed "species") and the human concept of racism, which is discrimination against members of the same species on a purely cosmetic and social basis

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Post Thursday, 8th December 2016, 00:02

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

gfgf45550 wrote:[*]He appreciates holy war against other religions.

I'd like to notice that he actually also appreciates holy war against other beoghist confessions, since he considers the priests who don't join you heretics.
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Post Thursday, 8th December 2016, 00:53

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

split in the church

duvessa mentioned an idea earlier where any species can worship beogh and it turns you into a "cave orc" upon joining, which is cool and is probably the only way to remove hill orcs I would be ok with
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Post Thursday, 8th December 2016, 01:41

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

escapism
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Post Thursday, 8th December 2016, 03:27

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

videogamesvideogamesvideogames

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Post Thursday, 8th December 2016, 05:02

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

gfgf45550 wrote:REMOVE BEOGH, IF YOU ARE PROGRESSIVE PEOPLE FROM PROGRESSIVE SOCIETY, WHICH IS FREE FROM RACIAL OR RELIGIOUS STEREOTYPES!

I think most of the devs are from the USA or Australia, actually.

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Post Thursday, 8th December 2016, 09:11

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

Why is my topic in Yiuf's Corner again? I was fucking serious about Beogh!

You show how you are impolite towards proponents of equality.
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Post Thursday, 8th December 2016, 11:21

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

This is next level shitposting.
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Post Thursday, 8th December 2016, 13:56

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

I sympathize with the OP, my fellow Behoger.
I, as a Torgist, resent the way the liberal media has been portraying our religion.
We are often depicted as intolerant anti-magic book-burning zealots, which couldn't be further from the truth.
As a matter of fact, we accept all forms of written expression, from prose to verse. Philosophy treaties burns particularly well.
Torgism is a peace-loving religion, and we welcome any and all species, as long as they are ready to embrace their inner beasts and prepared to lay waste to all heretics, communists and filthy liberals before them through fire and blood.
Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying and must be slaughtered in an wanton orgy of destruction.
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Post Thursday, 8th December 2016, 16:16

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

I thanked op because I thought he was sarcastic.
Now I seriously do hope it is so
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Post Thursday, 8th December 2016, 19:31

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

There are a million legit reasons to remove/rework Beogh and this is what you decide to talk about?

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Post Thursday, 8th December 2016, 20:06

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

ZipZipskins wrote:human concept of racism, which is discrimination against members of the same species

So it's racist if you could have babies together? What if you're not sure? e.g. can high and deep elves even procreate? Do you have to check before you can be racist? This is a thought-provoking discussion to have.

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Post Thursday, 8th December 2016, 20:08

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

Hep ancestors always have human-ish stats which leads me to a conclusion that at some point every adventurer's family tree included at least one human, regardless of their race.

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Post Thursday, 8th December 2016, 20:15

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

syringe wrote:
ZipZipskins wrote:human concept of racism, which is discrimination against members of the same species

So it's racist if you could have babies together? What if you're not sure? e.g. can high and deep elves even procreate? Do you have to check before you can be racist? This is a thought-provoking discussion to have.

actually it's racism if we're talking about real actual humans discriminating against one another based upon the social construct of race, on both a personal and larger social level (which really happens and causes all kinds of real-world issues and hardship for billions of real people worldwide) and everything that happens in crawl (a computer game) has no bearing on that whatsoever, and conflating these two things does a major disservice to the people who actually deal with racism in their day to day lives

but sure let's talk about a high elf and deep elf getting it on

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Post Thursday, 8th December 2016, 21:18

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

I'm pretty sure crawl is a real part of this real world we share. For example, the meanings of words are not actual things in the real world, but it is commonly believed that words can be racist and have bearing on real-world hardships and issues. Fictional case studies can be instructive, and that's a large part of the whole point of literature. It would be interesting for you to speak out to the contrary. I don't see how invoking disserviced people supports anything you say.

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Post Thursday, 8th December 2016, 21:36

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

We don't reproduce. I mean think about it, have you ever seen a baby elf?

Of course fiction has a lot of bearing on our culture, and it's absolutely possible and common for fiction, including DCSS, to have problematic elements that normalize racism or just don't depict it effectively. But the context is a shitpost thread that was made exclusively as a jab against progressives (because obviously being anti-racist is a bad thing and should be made fun of, apparently???), and ZipZipskins is making a callout against that, not saying that fantastic racism can't be impactful.

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Post Thursday, 8th December 2016, 21:37

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

Crawl is not a figurative case study or treatise on race relations in the real world and none of the species in the game represents or stands in for actual marginalized groups in any way- though the original post I am reacting to might have you feel differently

edit: duvessa summed it up better than I could have. If you'd like to have a substantive discussion about problematic depictions of racism in crawl or other games, this thread has never been the place for it lol
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Post Thursday, 8th December 2016, 22:28

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

C'mon guys, the OP was obviously joking.
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Post Thursday, 8th December 2016, 22:50

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

Yes, and the punchline of the joke was "progressives are dumb lol"

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Post Thursday, 8th December 2016, 23:08

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

I see it as more of an attempt at a joke without having really thought through the ramifications. It happens all the time. One should give the benefit of the doubt. Surely not something to get worked up about.
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Post Friday, 9th December 2016, 13:57

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

If you'll recall, I treated the OP like the (shitty, unfunny, intentionally inflammatory) joke that it was, until people actually started chiming in about racism in crawl

and the last time "it's just a joke, why are you even bothered?" was a legitimate defense of shitty behaviour was approximately never ago

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Post Friday, 9th December 2016, 21:55

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

Well I thought you were the one saying crawl's racism is categorically different than if selection was between same-species like mongols/vikings/etc. Be as that may, it is suddenly not shitposting but design and righteousness to authoritatively label Beogh evil for being an unapologetic orc-lover, even though by all evidence its attitude to followers is protective and not abusive. You can't have a racist god that is not unambiguously evil, because it would be intolerable, when gods like Trog and Chei and Gozag, who can similarly be construed as dedicated to spreading evil values, are let off the hook. As for OP supposedly feigning dumbness, why would it be such a big leap to go from condemning to averting? Children were removed from Fallout for some markets, so that you could not kill children in-game. It's not unexpected that some would truly find objectionable the existence a "be racist" button that players not only can press, but must press, if they want to unlock a significant part of the game's content. Who is to say that where you stand is neither shamefully retrograde nor laughably extremist, like the perspectives you mock, but exactly in-between? I only ask that you know what you're talking about if you are going to so confidently judge other people.

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Post Friday, 9th December 2016, 22:20

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

You're right, I can't read minds. All I have to go on is context. If the OP posted again and said, "no, sincerely, I wanted to have an actual discussion about racism in crawl, I didn't mean for my post to have a facetious and judgemental tone," I'm definitely open to that.

As it stands, boy does everything point to facetiousness. Including the "I'm fucking serious about beogh!" post.

edit: I'd also like to add that I'm not judging anyone, I'm just being critical of the things other people say or write. I'm making judgements on those things through context, but it's nothing personal :)

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Post Friday, 9th December 2016, 23:22

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

good troll, resulted in paragraphs i can't be bothered to read but which other people are thanking. good troll results in much wasted time and emotional energy. good work
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Post Friday, 9th December 2016, 23:25

Re:

Turukano wrote:
gfgf45550 wrote:PROGRESSIVE PEOPLE FROM PROGRESSIVE SOCIETY, WHICH IS FREE FROM [...] RELIGIOUS STEREOTYPES!

Religious stereotypes, mhmm.

Imagine the following: somebody from a progressive society converts from one god to another, e.g. from God to Allah, from Allah to Krishna etc.

Will the former god send berserking trolls e.g. to punish him?


yesno wrote:good troll, resulted in paragraphs i can't be bothered to read but which other people are thanking. good troll results in much wasted time and emotional energy. good work
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Post Friday, 9th December 2016, 23:27

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

FR: a complete list of the political affiliations of every crawl god and unique, to be added to the ingame help.

I know that at least TSO, Zin, Gozag, and Donald are Republicans. Also Fedhas is in the Green party (except he forgot to register to vote so he really isn't in any party).

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Post Friday, 9th December 2016, 23:52

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

yesno wrote:much wasted time and emotional energy


well you're surely not surprised there's a tendency towards that here

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Post Saturday, 10th December 2016, 19:11

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

The only racial differences in crawl might be High Elf versus Deep Elf. Everything else is a species. RPG people just use "race" because of D&D but its completely wrong use of the word. Human and Octopodes are not even in the same phylum biologically calling them two different races is assinine.

That being said Orcs seem to have an affinity for giant species so Ogres and Trolls for players, maybe they can have some sort of affiliations with Beogh. I mean HO is actually a pretty good species standalone anyway.

And yes I understand the OP is facetious.

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Post Saturday, 10th December 2016, 22:47

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

Are you really complaining that the word "race" is used slightly differently in fantasy fiction than it is in real life?

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Post Sunday, 11th December 2016, 00:29

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

Rast wrote:Are you really complaining that the word "race" is used slightly differently in fantasy fiction than it is in real life?


Its not slight at all. It is used radically wrong. There is a very large difference between a cline (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cline_(biology)) where say the patterns of camouflage in a species vary somewhat and an entirely different species that which is not even in the same order.

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Post Sunday, 11th December 2016, 00:31

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

And yet, somehow, everyone knows what you mean when you say "Orcs and Elves are different races" or "Obama and Trump are different races".

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Post Sunday, 11th December 2016, 00:41

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

Rast wrote:And yet, somehow, everyone knows what you mean when you say "Orcs and Elves are different races" or "Obama and Trump are different races".


So ..... what does it mean to say "Lizardmen and elves are different races"? One has scales and is cold booded ...

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Post Sunday, 11th December 2016, 00:43

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

severen wrote:So ..... what does it mean to say "Lizardmen and elves are different races"? One has scales and is cold booded ...


...and the other is lizardmen?

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Post Sunday, 11th December 2016, 01:00

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

Rast wrote:
severen wrote:So ..... what does it mean to say "Lizardmen and elves are different races"? One has scales and is cold booded ...


...and the other is lizardmen?



Everyone knows lizardmen have pointy ears and large furry feet.

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Post Sunday, 11th December 2016, 01:06

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

severen wrote:
Rast wrote:
severen wrote:So ..... what does it mean to say "Lizardmen and elves are different races"? One has scales and is cold booded ...


...and the other is lizardmen?



Everyone knows lizardmen have pointy ears and large furry feet.

I thought they had feathers. .
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Post Sunday, 11th December 2016, 01:08

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

Siegurt wrote:
severen wrote:
Rast wrote:
...and the other is lizardmen?



Everyone knows lizardmen have pointy ears and large furry feet.

I thought they had feathers. .


No those are dinosaur-people.

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Post Sunday, 11th December 2016, 01:26

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

severen wrote:No those are dinosaur-people.


no, that's OP

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Post Sunday, 11th December 2016, 02:19

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

cerebovssquire wrote:no, that's OP

Image
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Mines Malingerer

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Post Sunday, 11th December 2016, 02:30

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

Seriously, I cannot understand one thing.

You talk in earnest about feminisation of characters in Crawl and don't accept the other obvious step of your social justice war against any kind of triggers, making from my thread a joke.

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Post Sunday, 11th December 2016, 03:02

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

You are the only one triggered in this thread, my friend.

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Post Sunday, 11th December 2016, 05:31

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

gfgf45550 wrote:You talk in earnest about feminisation of characters in Crawl
Image

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Post Monday, 12th December 2016, 12:13

Re: Remove racism from crawl!

Locked. This thread started poorly and is going downhill fast. OP has been warned.

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