DCSS Race Tier List


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Post Sunday, 21st February 2016, 14:07

DCSS Race Tier List

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A consensus was reached (between zxc and I) to create this, so it's even more irrefutable than past Western offerings.

Primary criteria: movespeed, HP, abilities, apts.
Last edited by DrKe on Sunday, 20th November 2016, 13:16, edited 6 times in total.
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Post Sunday, 21st February 2016, 14:18

Re: Tier List: DCSS Races

Check your priviledge and create an Draconian colour tier chart
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Post Sunday, 21st February 2016, 14:32

Re: Tier List: DCSS Races

I would put Ds in B-tier for "Best Role" and move Ha up to A
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Post Sunday, 21st February 2016, 14:40

Re: Tier List: DCSS Races

tabstorm wrote:I would put Ds in B-tier for "Best Role" and move Ha up to A

Ds was one of the most debated over actually, it couldve gone either way pretty much.
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Post Sunday, 21st February 2016, 17:23

Re: Tier List: DCSS Races

Og feels too high in the random role group, especially in comparison to Hu and Dg. Otherwise you can add my name to your Western consensus list.
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Post Sunday, 21st February 2016, 17:54

Re: Tier List: DCSS Races

Why the hell do people rank felids so high? Its plain bad and no "err but it has good aptitudes" doesnt help the lack of armor and weapons. Its ranked the same as a draconian?! How? Please tell me how the hell can you win with it at the same rate as a draconian? :shock: At least put it at the bottom (not quite mummy bad). But mummy you can at least play reliably.
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Post Sunday, 21st February 2016, 18:05

Re: Tier List: DCSS Races

Felids are fast, stealthy, dodgy and have built-in savescumming. They're really good, if they started with an extra life they'd probably be rated much higher.

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Post Sunday, 21st February 2016, 18:10

Re: Tier List: DCSS Races

Sar wrote:Felids are fast, stealthy, dodgy and have built-in savescumming. They're really good, if they started with an extra life they'd probably be rated much higher.

That still doesnt compensate for their frailness and overall low survivability to handle creatures thrown their way. You can get a mummy farther and that says a lot. But the good things they have are the lives as you said. But lets say you get killed by a monster. You leave it behind and all the monsters you leave behind slowly pile up? I dont see how to do Felid without Yred or Trog.
At least make it more player (new players at least because I can see that you are quite an experienced one :D ) friendly with transfering the -40%HP to -30%HP and maybe decrease their aptitudes? Make them appealing to play.
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Post Sunday, 21st February 2016, 18:15

Re: Tier List: DCSS Races

Dungeoneer wrote:That still doesnt compensate for their frailness

What do you want me to say? "No it does"? I can say that, but you disagree, so it's your opinion against mine, or your against DrKe's, or whatever. "You can get a mummy farther" - you can get a character of any race as far as you can/want, it's Crawl. What's that supposed to mean?

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Post Sunday, 21st February 2016, 18:20

Re: Tier List: DCSS Races

Sar wrote:
Dungeoneer wrote:That still doesnt compensate for their frailness

What do you want me to say? "No it does"? I can say that, but you disagree, so it's your opinion against mine, or your against DrKe's, or whatever. "You can get a mummy farther" - you can get a character of any race as far as you can/want, it's Crawl. What's that supposed to mean?

All Im saying is that even if they are stealthy, fast, good spellcasters they are still frail. But I guess you are kind of right and maybe its just me :oops:
I still suck at magic so that might be getting in the felid image. Now lets end this felid argument so we dont flood the thread? Also sorry if I sound ranty its just my opinion :D
Edit: Also I realised that is just DrKe's ranking. Im dumb.
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Post Sunday, 21st February 2016, 18:32

Re: Tier List: DCSS Races

That's an interesting tier list, it certainly shows how different people value other things in characters. What I find the hardest to believe is how DD is absolute top when I always had huge problems playing them and felt extremely miserable. It's also pretty funny how, whenever I visit the IRC channel, I see people complaining how Ogres are bad, then I find them at A/S tier. :)

Anyway, if you want to laugh at my personal opinion, here's how I would place races (based on their "best" combos):

Great - Gr, Mi
Good - Ce, DE, Fo, HO, Sp
Average - Dr, Ds, Gh, Ha, Hu, Mf, Og, Tr, VS
Bad - Dg, Fe, HE, Ko, Op, Te, Vp
Very Bad - DD, Mu, Na
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Post Sunday, 21st February 2016, 18:49

Re: Tier List: DCSS Races

Leszczynek wrote:That's an interesting tier list, it certainly shows how different people value other things in characters. What I find the hardest to believe is how DD is absolute top when I always had huge problems playing them and felt extremely miserable. It's also pretty funny how, whenever I visit the IRC channel, I see people complaining how Ogres are bad, then I find them at A/S tier. :)

Anyway, if you want to laugh at my personal opinion, here's how I would place races (based on their "best" combos):

Great - Gr, Mi
Good - Ce, DE, Fo, HO, Sp
Average - Dr, Ds, Gh, Ha, Hu, Mf, Og, Tr, VS
Bad - Dg, Fe, HE, Ko, Op, Te, Vp
Very Bad - DD, Mu, Na

Well the problem with DDs is that you almost MUST go with Ely, Makhleb or Pakellas (maybe even TSO) to have a good run. They start showing their potential in the lategame where they shine with the right gear. :)
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Post Sunday, 21st February 2016, 18:59

Re: Tier List: DCSS Races

Dungeoneer wrote:Well the problem with DDs is that you almost MUST go with Ely, Makhleb or Pakellas (maybe even TSO) to have a good run. They start showing their potential in the lategame where they shine with the right gear. :)


No they show their potential on D:1 because they start with the absolute best item you could have on D:1. Also, they can easily take Trog.
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Post Sunday, 21st February 2016, 19:11

Re: Tier List: DCSS Races

Time for some responses! :D

tabstorm wrote:I would put Ds in B-tier for "Best Role" and move Ha up to A

As DrKe said, placing Ds was very tricky. DsBe is slightly weaker than HuBe in the first couple of floors, then rapidly outstrips HuBe for the rest of the game. The same issue can be seen with GrBe. However, as we're talking about berserkers, the chance of death on D:1 or D:2 is close to zero, so a somewhat longer-term outlook was considered.

I don't understand your reasoning behind moving Ha up. HuBe has more HP and can wield larger weapons. We didn't think the advantages of small size offset that.

WalkerBoh wrote:Og feels too high in the random role group, especially in comparison to Hu and Dg. Otherwise you can add my name to your Western consensus list.

I am also beginning to reconsider this. Og was placed so highly because of its huge HP primarily, and every ogre can pick up a mace and start crushing the dungeon. However, some of its magic apts really are terrible, so D:1 might be an issue with the worst Og roles.

The random role list was initially conceived more as an overall ranking of races. You could also see it as reflecting the strength of races with poor roles. If actual random roles are considered, flat apts (e.g. Hu, Dg) are more desirable than unbalanced apts (Mf, Og), and so Dg/Hu will spike up in the ranking. Not sure about what to do regarding this just yet. edit: Probably rename Random Role to something else and leave as is.

Dungeoneer wrote:Why the hell do people rank felids so high? Its plain bad and no "err but it has good aptitudes" doesnt help the lack of armor and weapons. Its ranked the same as a draconian?! How? Please tell me how the hell can you win with it at the same rate as a draconian? :shock: At least put it at the bottom (not quite mummy bad). But mummy you can at least play reliably.

We anticipated at least one query to this effect. Its movespeed is a critical consideration, allowing fight resets and easy escapes from everything but jackals and adders in the early dungeon. When played very carefully, Fe survivability can be very high, and after the first extra life is reached, it becomes an extremely strong race (but probably not fun still).

Leszczynek wrote:That's an interesting tier list, it certainly shows how different people value other things in characters. What I find the hardest to believe is how DD is absolute top when I always had huge problems playing them and felt extremely miserable.

DD starts with the highest HP aside from Og and Tr (but can also wear heaps of armour and has no size penalty to EV). They have damage-shaving, which is amazing all game and is a huge deal especially early on. They have great apts across the board. Last but not least, they start with a wand of healing, which is one of the best items in the game, especially for a char on D:1. Like Fe, DD is a race that scales heavily with player experience, and like Fe, they can make the player feel miserable despite their strength (which is quite normal).
Last edited by zxc23 on Sunday, 21st February 2016, 19:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Sunday, 21st February 2016, 19:15

Re: Tier List: DCSS Races

Ability to regenerate fully between each fight will sooner or later give you more effective HP than a wand of heal wounds and damage shaving, in which case I suppose it's a matter of picking your fights properly so you don't have to regen much or at all in the first place. The problem I have is when I see a tab-like character, I tab. :D
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Post Sunday, 21st February 2016, 20:53

Re: Tier List: DCSS Races

Ds below Fe makes me so damn salty.
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Post Sunday, 21st February 2016, 21:52

Re: Tier List: DCSS Races

DE is definitely low for random role, but this ranking greatly underplaces it for best role. DEFE, through its starting book alone, has potential to easily kill just about every monster through Lair. Its squishiness doesn't really come into play when it has that sort of firepower. Should be around A tier, not D.

More minor, but I'd also see Mf and Og swapping places on the "best role" list. +4 polearms and +3 dodging are incredible by any measure, and ogres, while good, have a lot more survivability issues.

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Post Sunday, 21st February 2016, 22:10

Re: Tier List: DCSS Races

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Post Sunday, 21st February 2016, 22:47

Re: Tier List: DCSS Races

I mean, it is in the name, Demigod Win.
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Post Sunday, 21st February 2016, 22:52

Re: Tier List: DCSS Races

For the "Best Role" column, it would be useful if you specify the role you think is "best" for each race.

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Post Monday, 22nd February 2016, 09:48

Re: Tier List: DCSS Races

I think one problem with this is that 'best role' listing is not terribly helpful in quite a number of instances. I'm not terribly likely to choose Berserker for a number of these species, even when it is the best. This is a similar to the problem with an overall god listing. These images aren't really useful for newer people to consult except to learn things like 'wow Fedhas is really strong' or 'which of these two incredibly strong Berserkers is more incredibly strong'. It's a ton of work to try to make a species/god listing for each role, so I understand that you might not want to make it, but it would be a lot more useful for people making decisions.

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Post Monday, 22nd February 2016, 10:35

Re: Tier List: DCSS Races

Deep Elf Earth Elementalist was the easiest thing I ever played. I'd just two-shot eveythingI saw until shatter, then I'd two-shot my entire LOS.

You people need to stop being obsessed with berserkers.

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Post Monday, 22nd February 2016, 13:58

Re: Tier List: DCSS Races

Updated, s/random/median

@gammafunk I think it's interesting for new players to learn that Fedhas is strong though. Also:

gammafunk wrote:I want tier lists for species and backgrounds DrKe. Don't care whether the idea makes sense or not.

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Post Monday, 22nd February 2016, 21:52

Re: Tier List: DCSS Races

I hate Ogres and am a little biased against them, but I do think Og can be worse than Mu (at surviving until Temple in a role that's bad for Ogres).

Roll out something weird like OgCj and its killdudes is bad (-3* Conjurations), its large size makes its defenses bad (can't wear early floor armour and there's a dodging malus for your size AND -2 Dodging). Then additionally unlike mummies, you aren't immune to Poison (Adders) or Negative Energy (Grinder, Menkaure).
I'm beginning to feel like a Cat God! Felid streaks: {FeVM^Sif Muna, FeWn^Dithmenos, FeAr^Pakellas}, {FeEE^Ashenzari, FeEn^Gozag, FeNe^Sif Muna, FeAE^Vehumet...(ongoing)}

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Post Monday, 22nd February 2016, 22:07

Re: Tier List: DCSS Races

We've already discussed this in ##crawl, but ogres are much better than mummies, particularly at the start of the game. Who cares about -3 conj when you have way more HP than average at XL1 and can train up the first whip you find incredibly quickly, on top of the giant Fighting aptitude?
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Post Monday, 22nd February 2016, 22:22

Re: Tier List: DCSS Races

Lasty wrote:We've already discussed this in ##crawl, but ogres are much better than mummies, particularly at the start of the game. Who cares about -3 conj when you have way more HP than average at XL1 and can train up the first whip you find incredibly quickly, on top of the giant Fighting aptitude?
Ogres are definitely worse than humans though.
I'm beginning to feel like a Cat God! Felid streaks: {FeVM^Sif Muna, FeWn^Dithmenos, FeAr^Pakellas}, {FeEE^Ashenzari, FeEn^Gozag, FeNe^Sif Muna, FeAE^Vehumet...(ongoing)}

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Post Tuesday, 23rd February 2016, 01:40

Re: Tier List: DCSS Races

bcadren wrote:
Lasty wrote:We've already discussed this in ##crawl, but ogres are much better than mummies, particularly at the start of the game. Who cares about -3 conj when you have way more HP than average at XL1 and can train up the first whip you find incredibly quickly, on top of the giant Fighting aptitude?
Ogres are definitely worse than humans though.

Perhaps generally, but I don't think the are worse on d1, I would take an ogre with a +0 whip and +0 animal hide over a human with a +0 short sword and +0 leather.
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Post Tuesday, 23rd February 2016, 02:17

Re: Tier List: DCSS Races

zxc wrote:I am also beginning to reconsider this. Og was placed so highly because of its huge HP primarily, and every ogre can pick up a mace and start crushing the dungeon. However, some of its magic apts really are terrible, so D:1 might be an issue with the worst Og roles.

The random role list was initially conceived more as an overall ranking of races. You could also see it as reflecting the strength of races with poor roles. If actual random roles are considered, flat apts (e.g. Hu, Dg) are more desirable than unbalanced apts (Mf, Og), and so Dg/Hu will spike up in the ranking. Not sure about what to do regarding this just yet. edit: Probably rename Random Role to something else and leave as is.

I can see a decent argument for Og being placed on the same level as Hu and Dg, because HP apt is huge on D1-3 and it's really easy to pick up a whip and start doing work. The main argument against Og is that its defenses are so bad that the HP isn't as useful as on something like Fo, and it can't pick up that early ring mail or scale mail like a lot of other fragile races can. In my experience the defense is bad enough that Og tends to be more fragile than Hu or Dg on D1-3 despite the extra HP. But it's close enough to not be crystal clear.

Random role to me is just measuring some combination of "how good is this race at switching to what its best at, regardless of starting gear or stats" and "how effective is this race when doing what its best at". This is why Tr is rated so highly; it's trivially easy to tear things up with claws from turn 1 on any start, and Tr is REALLY good at tearing things up with its claws at every stage of the game.

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Post Tuesday, 23rd February 2016, 18:35

Re: Tier List: DCSS Races

I'm shocked that felid is that high. I think not being able to use hardly any equipment is a huge, massive negative. Its extra lives also do not help me a ton outside of the first couple because you lose a level which makes you even more underpowered going forward. The rest of the list is perfectly reasonable so I'm not sure why that's so far out there.

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Post Tuesday, 23rd February 2016, 20:21

Re: Tier List: DCSS Races

Being fast is actually that good, that's what is going on.

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Post Tuesday, 23rd February 2016, 20:56

Re: Tier List: DCSS Races

Fast is good if you have the patience required to always run away from any nontrivial damage. Felids are one of the few species I've quit in frustration (more than once.) I know I can win the fight if I just keep running away and resetting it until the RNG rolls my way, but, ... ugh. Your most powerful tools are those that reset bad fights and fast species get an essentially unlimited supply of resets. Combine that with the fact that Felids are squishy as hell, meaning you have to use those resets more often...

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Post Tuesday, 23rd February 2016, 22:07

Re: Tier List: DCSS Races

Try a FeBe maybe?

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Post Tuesday, 23rd February 2016, 23:28

Re: Tier List: DCSS Races

onmach wrote:I'm shocked that felid is that high. I think not being able to use hardly any equipment is a huge, massive negative. Its extra lives also do not help me a ton outside of the first couple because you lose a level which makes you even more underpowered going forward. The rest of the list is perfectly reasonable so I'm not sure why that's so far out there.


Transmutations, particularly statue form, solves this problem. Felid is one of my favorite races. It is very hard to lose because of the lives + speed, and you can always ninja runes. Hexes, transloc and transmut aptitudes are great. The low hp is a worse problem than no armor imo.

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Post Wednesday, 24th February 2016, 00:55

Re: Tier List: DCSS Races

to be honest, an effort was made to place felid as low as was reasonably possible. It could've easily been higher.
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Post Wednesday, 24th February 2016, 01:14

Re: Tier List: DCSS Races

DrKe wrote:to be honest, an effort was made to place felid as low as was reasonably possible. It could've easily been higher.


I like this list overall, especially because the criteria used feels legit (movespeed most important instrinsic in crawl). Nice work.

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Post Wednesday, 24th February 2016, 01:22

Re: Tier List: DCSS Races

Felids are the most disliked race. This drives them down the list no matter how objectively powerful they are.

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Post Wednesday, 24th February 2016, 08:34

Re: Tier List: DCSS Races

An update was made to the tiers.

In median role: Dg moved up from B+ to A; Fo moved up from D to D+. In best role: DE moved up from D to D+, Vp moved down from B to C+.

edgefigaro wrote:Felids are the most disliked race. This drives them down the list no matter how objectively powerful they are.

Fun is not a factor in these rankings. We try to keep it objective.
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Post Wednesday, 24th February 2016, 13:24

Re: Tier List: DCSS Races

DrKe wrote:...
Primary criteria: movespeed, HP, abilities, apts.

Pwahahaha Fe-- > DEFE oh lol!

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Post Thursday, 25th February 2016, 20:17

Re: Tier List: DCSS Races

I think FE are a really good race in the same way that traps are avoidable by only walking on tiles you previously walked on, and in the same way that a speed 10 monster cannot kill a character. It's true in theoretical optimal crawl, less so on the crawl people actually play. But the tavern isn't really for discussing that crawl.

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Post Thursday, 25th February 2016, 20:35

Re: Tier List: DCSS Races

I never play optimally and I feel like Fe are good.

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Post Friday, 26th February 2016, 15:12

Re: DCSS Race Tier List

Please, you play so optimally that monsters try to lure you!
You play so optimally that you don't autoexplore, and keep a map of each floor on graph paper, so you can keep track of the safe tiles to avoid traps.
You play so optimally that you flee any speed 10 monster if you drop below 100% hps at any point in the fight.
You play so optimally that you throw away the W's at the M&M factory.

No wait... that's not how it works

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Post Sunday, 20th November 2016, 13:16

Re: DCSS Race Tier List

updated for 0.19
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Post Sunday, 20th November 2016, 15:04

Re: DCSS Race Tier List

DrKe wrote:updated for 0.19


what changed and why? :)
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Post Sunday, 20th November 2016, 17:14

Re: DCSS Race Tier List

updated graphics
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Post Monday, 21st November 2016, 01:49

Re: DCSS Race Tier List

Ghoul C? Have you ever played Ghouls in 0.19, after the chunks changed to be eaten in a single turn?
You would never die in the early game. Block the passage with an weak enemy and just eat chunks over and over again.

Gargoyles lower than Og/Tr? No way.

Formicids deserve at least mid-tier.
Their +2 apt for Shield is awesome (and they get no penalty for large shields at Shield Lv15), combined with Okawaru+2-h wpns.
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Post Monday, 21st November 2016, 02:06

Re: DCSS Race Tier List

This is my race tier.


Early game (~D:10 + Lair + Orc)

A+ : DD, Ce, Mi
A : HO, Mf, VS, Gh, Gr
A- : Ha, Sp, Og, Tr, Vp
B+ :
B : Dr, Fo, Ds, Fe
B- : Hu, Te, Dg
C+ : HE, DE, Ko, Na
C : Op
C- : Mu


Mid game (~D:15 + 2 runes + Elf)

A+ : DD, Mi, Gr
A : Ce, HO, Mf, Gh, Sp, VS
A- : Ds
B+ : HE, Og, Vp, Fo
B : DE, Ha, Tr, Dr, Na
B- : Hu, Fe, Te, Op
C+ : Dg, Ko
C : Mu
C- :


Late game (Vaults, Depths, Zot (possibly +Crypt, Abyss, Slime))

A+ : DD, Mi, Gr
A : VS, HO, Mf, Og, Tr
A- : Ce, Gh, Ds, DE, Na, Fe
B+ : HE, Vp, Dr, Op, Sp
B : Ha, Fo, Te
B- : Hu, Ko
C+ : Dg
C : Mu
C- :


Extended (Pan/Hell/Tomb)

A+ : Gr, VS
A : Mi, Og, Tr, Fe
A- : HO, Mf, Ds, DE, Na, Op, Gh
B+ : DD, Ce, Sp, Dr
B : HE, Mu
B- : Hu
C+ : Ko
C : Vp, Dg
C- :
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/papilio.html

Done 15-rune wins with all playable species, backgrounds, gods!
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Blades Runner

Posts: 564

Joined: Wednesday, 5th March 2014, 03:52

Post Monday, 21st November 2016, 02:24

Re: DCSS Race Tier List

Felids are weird - I'd say that they're way difficult for new players, but once you've won a couple times they become an easy race.

It's about threat assessment. You're puny with poor resistances, so you have to know what can kill you easily. But once you've figured that out, it''s quite easy to walk (or sneak) away from fights you don't want to be involved in. But if played carefully by an experienced player then, yeah, Felid Anything* is better than Deep Elf Fire Elementalist at every stage of the game.

* Of any God except Quaz or Chei.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8749

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Monday, 21st November 2016, 02:36

Re: DCSS Race Tier List

papilio wrote:Gargoyles lower than Og/Tr? No way.
Og/Tr have far more durability and damage output than Gr. Why wouldn't Gr be lower?

Gh is lowish on the "best role" list because it can't berserk, and its D:1 is kind of awkward even with chunk healing being useful now.

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Slime Squisher

Posts: 395

Joined: Wednesday, 6th July 2016, 02:40

Post Monday, 21st November 2016, 04:10

Re: DCSS Race Tier List

duvessa wrote:
papilio wrote:Gargoyles lower than Og/Tr? No way.
Og/Tr have far more durability and damage output than Gr. Why wouldn't Gr be lower?

Gh is lowish on the "best role" list because it can't berserk, and its D:1 is kind of awkward even with chunk healing being useful now.



Gr have rElec/rPois+++, far more AC, enable to wear all kind of body armours.
(Their only early predators are early smites of orc priests)

Og/Tr indeed have awful durability until they get decent dragon scales or Statue Form. And their Armour apt really sucks.
(Yes, once Ogres pick golden dragon scales and Trolls learn statue form, then their durabilities become great, I admit. What I'm saying is, before there.)

Surviving early floors wouldn't be a big problem for Ghouls for now, even without Berserk. You have plenty of chunks almost every time to heal yourself to full HP.
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/papilio.html

Done 15-rune wins with all playable species, backgrounds, gods!

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8749

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Monday, 21st November 2016, 04:21

Re: DCSS Race Tier List

OgBe: 24 HP, 3 AC, 10 EV
TrBe: 22 HP, 5 AC, 10 EV
GrBe: 14 HP, 4 AC, 12 EV

If one of these has a durability problem, it isn't Og or Tr.

For this message the author duvessa has received thanks: 3
nago, VeryAngryFelid, ZipZipskins
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