Is hell crawl already better then stone soup?

[CypherZel]

This is a question for those who have played a good deal of both games, not me trying to hold a contentious position in an argument. I feel like HC for me is the better crawl version because it removes the worst part of crawl which is the over saturation of levels. Even with the cuts a lot of crawl is just retreating to a nice corner and pressing tab, playing a decent PC, crawl really only has a few challenging parts of the game that make it difficult and the rest is just a tab fest to get to those points of the game. I like how he'll crawl is trying to make the entire game difficult (although I think later dungeons aren't hard enough, feels the same as regular crawl) the removal of food is something that a lot of tavern players wanted as well. Overall the fork appeals to the hardcore tavern audience which is something that the devs don't really do (they fuckin hate us) which is fair since we are just a vocal monitory. So I just want to ask if anyone feels the same as me at this point in time, and if so why. Also if you think it isn't better I would like to hear why as well.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Pros:
1) No hunger
2) Harder middle game, less popcorn
3) Difference between hard and easy characters is increased
4) Numbers are displayed (most damage, AC/EV/HP, it was fun to see stats of monster from box of beast)
5) More meaningful strategic decisions, you won't have XP for everything you want

Cons:
1) Changed balance of gods (not strictly a bad thing though)
2) Changed balance of items (not recommended to play if you hate Abyss because you are more likely to be banished due to less MR items and lower XL)
3) Removed rune lock (not strictly a bad thing though)

[CypherZel]

Pros:
1) No hunger
2) Harder middle game, less popcorn
3) Difference between hard and easy characters is increased
4) Numbers are displayed (most damage, AC/EV/HP, it was fun to see stats of monster from box of beast)
5) More meaningful strategic decisions, you won't have XP for everything you want

Cons:
1) Changed balance of gods (not strictly a bad thing though)
2) Changed balance of items (not recommended to play if you hate Abyss because you are more likely to be banished due to less MR items and lower XL)
3) Removed rune lock (not strictly a bad thing though)

You didn't actually answer the question but it's cool

[VeryAngryFelid]

You mean question "Is hell crawl already better then stone soup?"?
For me it is better, for other players it can be worse.

I hoped it is clear from my first message that I share your opinion about hellcrawl.

[njvack]

Are Valencia oranges already better than Cara cara oranges?

[Psieye]

I believe the question OP is actually asking is "which version meets your interests better?"

[torrenera]

ehm... what is hell crawl?

[torrenera]

don't worry, it was explained a couple of posts below... ^^

[phloomp]

For me hellcrawl is better, largely due to foodlessness (the game flows much better without it).

Disclaimer: I've only played OP characters in hellcrawl (e.g. HOfoo, fooBE). It's possible that some characters that are fun but weak (like DEFE) have become too hard. But I know nothing about that.

[ZipZipskins]

Are Valencia oranges already better than Cara cara oranges?

Having eaten both, no.

[lethediver]

No food alone makes it much, much better.

But yeah. Hellcrawl is crawl with 2x strategic/tactical interestingness, and 1/5th the amount of keypresses... what not to love?

[HardboiledGargoyle]

there must be something not to love there because it's been done before as Crawl Light at least, and that was years ago

[CypherZel]

there must be something not to love there because it's been done before as Crawl Light at least, and that was years ago

Not at all, dungeon crawl stone soups doesn't appeal to a lot of tavern players anymore and the devs just don't give a fuck.

[Arrhythmia]

there must be something not to love there because it's been done before as Crawl Light at least, and that was years ago

Not at all, dungeon crawl stone soups doesn't appeal to a lot of tavern players anymore and the devs just don't give a fuck.

i think, it's more likely that the devs prefer conservative incrementalism to radical changes than "don't give a fuck", but whatever keeps your inner narrative working i guess

[ZipZipskins]

there must be something not to love there because it's been done before as Crawl Light at least, and that was years ago

Not at all, dungeon crawl stone soups doesn't appeal to a lot of tavern players anymore and the devs just don't give a fuck.

good golly gosh, beulah, it's almost like tavern players aren't the only people playing the game!

[CypherZel]

.which is fair since we are just a vocal monitory.

[lethediver]

Op can you change the rules of your post so you need to have played both games to respond at all, not just to make an initial comment

Should clear up some of the more ignorant responses Im seeing

[CypherZel]

Op can you change the rules of your post so you need to have played both games to respond at all, not just to make an initial comment

Should clear up some of the more ignorant responses Im seeing

I thought I made it pretty clear that I was asking opinions from those who have played good deal of both I guess people just can't read

[dowan]

I haven't played hellcrawl at all, but I still have an uninformed opinion based on comments I've seen other people make.

So in my opinion, the answer is... choko.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

I don't think experience is necessary for having opinion nor even necessarily correlated with the quality of that opinion.

[dowan]

Yeah, having some idea of what you're talking about is wildly overrated. Uninformed opinions are the truest ones.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

You don't necessarily need experience to be informed, though (I'm talking about hands-on e.g. playing)

[dowan]

Ah, I see what you're saying. Fair enough, you can be informed without directly experiencing something. Although it's tough to say in this instance if one version or another is better without actually playing both versions.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

tough? difficulty is relative, e.g. something I find difficult may be trivial for duvessa

[ZipZipskins]

.which is fair since we are just a vocal monitory.

Are you suggesting that I actually read your original post instead of skimming the thread?

Which is to say sorry for calling you beulah, I missed that

[HardboiledGargoyle]

oh and why do you think we are a vocal minority? we are vocal and few crawl players are vocal on tavern, yes, but that is inevitable. But even when I never visited tavern, but had put a lot of hours into Crawl, and was very bad, and didn't get far - even then I knew the game was way too long. Perhaps the majority of players haven't consciously thought this, I don't know, but after all, most people are just playing games for fun and not paying attention to the flaws. If the game's not fun, possibly from being too long, they put it down and move on, with perhaps some good memories, which leaves them with good impressions, BUT that does not mean that that state of the game was better than an alternative like hellcrawl.

[Siegurt]

oh and why do you think we are a vocal minority? we are vocal and few crawl players are vocal on tavern, yes, but that is inevitable. But even when I never visited tavern, but had put a lot of hours into Crawl, and was very bad, and didn't get far - even then I knew the game was way too long. Perhaps the majority of players haven't consciously thought this, I don't know, but after all, most people are just playing games for fun and not paying attention to the flaws. If the game's not fun, possibly from being too long, they put it down and move on, with perhaps some good memories, which leaves them with good impressions, BUT that does not mean that that state of the game was better than an alternative like hellcrawl.

Fwiw i have never thought the game was too long, and still don't. Opinions are just that.

[Baldu3]

Yah really, when i play a junk wanderer i'm so glad there are plenty levels in normal crawl. When i play strong stuff i just skip like 25-50% of the game and it's still fun.

What sets hellcrawl appart is nofood and some more numbers. That's the good stuff that's hooking me up hard, i just don't understand why that's not in the main game, it's so much more fun!

[VeryAngryFelid]

Fwiw i have never thought the game was too long, and still don't. Opinions are just that.

Well, I don't think the game is too long, I think there is too much XP so it becomes boring late game even with most of hard combos (except FeBe and alike). Maybe it means I do think the game is too long

[neverEnough]

i didn't peek the code, but .. having 2 different behaviours of the same game is pretty doable. I mean there could be a new menu entry "Hellcrawl for tough people" in the main window.
Hellmonk may consider to check the prerequisites to turn hardcoded behaviours as inner game settings and call for peons
I'm pretty far from tryin Hellcrawl tho, still in trouble with octos.. my best one OpEE^Ash died in Zot:5 due to noobish set of rings without rF