DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed


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Post Monday, 17th October 2016, 23:38

DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

  Code:
Remove amulets of dismissal

These suffered from two serious issues: first, players didn't enjoy playing
with them, for much the same reasons as distortion weapons. Second, they
were significantly too life-saving, potentially getting players out of life-
threatening situations without requiring the player to take any actions.

Commit link: https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9 ... 5b697426ea

Good riddance!
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Post Monday, 17th October 2016, 23:53

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

harm next plz

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Post Tuesday, 18th October 2016, 03:23

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

Agreed.
I'm with tasonir on this one.

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Post Tuesday, 18th October 2016, 04:21

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

Seconding harm removal. Also, should remove "reflect as a normal item spawn. This is a major player buff that has gone largely unremarked. Brooch of shielding is fine.
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Post Tuesday, 18th October 2016, 05:43

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

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Post Tuesday, 18th October 2016, 08:39

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

goodcoolguy wrote:Seconding harm removal. Also, should remove "reflect as a normal item spawn. This is a major player buff that has gone largely unremarked. Brooch of shielding is fine.
are you saying that reflect is better than faith, rage, and spirit shield?

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Post Tuesday, 18th October 2016, 15:29

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

Solution: Remove all amulets
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Post Tuesday, 18th October 2016, 15:43

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

tabstorm wrote:Solution: Remove all amulets


"UX is everything" :)
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Post Tuesday, 18th October 2016, 20:29

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

Amulets of harm are basically a draining trap that triggers from your inventory, and I've struggled on many early characters trying to kill things on d:3 after the drain took my weapon skill back down to 1...

I mean, I could always just not wear ID amulets, but...oooohhh, shiny!

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Post Wednesday, 19th October 2016, 16:25

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

tasonir wrote:Amulets of harm are basically a draining trap that triggers from your inventory, and I've struggled on many early characters trying to kill things on d:3 after the drain took my weapon skill back down to 1...

I mean, I could always just not wear ID amulets, but...oooohhh, shiny!


If the drain will cripple your character, wear the amulet for a while.

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Post Wednesday, 19th October 2016, 17:08

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

Rast wrote:
If the drain will cripple your character, wear the amulet for a while.


No, pls just no

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Post Wednesday, 19th October 2016, 17:58

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

Look, I don't like it either, but this is the DCA forum

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Post Wednesday, 19th October 2016, 18:03

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

I think it is optimal to not use-id amulets if harm can create serious problems to character. Maybe it was one of reasons for introducing the amulet.

FR: Create a new amulet with red contam on removing.
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Post Wednesday, 19th October 2016, 20:15

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

VeryAngryFelid wrote:I think it is optimal to not use-id amulets if harm can create serious problems to character. Maybe it was one of reasons for introducing the amulet.

FR: Create a new amulet with red contam on removing.

Why would this be a good idea? You would have a lot more to lose from trying on an amulet than you would have to gain. You will simply want to scroll-ID all amulets. This doesn't add anything to the game. I have yet to understand why people think mid-lategame scroll-IDing is a good feature.
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Post Wednesday, 19th October 2016, 20:19

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

tabstorm wrote:
VeryAngryFelid wrote:I think it is optimal to not use-id amulets if harm can create serious problems to character. Maybe it was one of reasons for introducing the amulet.

FR: Create a new amulet with red contam on removing.

Why would this be a good idea? You would have a lot more to lose from trying on an amulet than you would have to gain. You will simply want to scroll-ID all amulets. This doesn't add anything to the game. I have yet to understand why people think mid-lategame scroll-IDing is a good feature.


My intention is to avoid disappointment from being drained after removing harm amulet because you will never wear-id amulets if playing optimally.
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Post Wednesday, 19th October 2016, 20:24

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

I'm disappointed because I have to keep IDing tons of floor junk because of items like this hypothetical amulet. Even in a world of reduced identify and remove curse scrolls, DCSS characters are largely stable past early game, so trying on a negative effect amulet is more likely to harm me than make me more likely to win. A single amulet does not have that much value.
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Post Wednesday, 19th October 2016, 20:26

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

Yes, I agree. Carthage Harm must be destroyed
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Post Thursday, 20th October 2016, 00:44

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

tasonir wrote:Amulets of harm are basically a draining trap that triggers from your inventory, and I've struggled on many early characters trying to kill things on d:3 after the drain took my weapon skill back down to 1...

I mean, I could always just not wear ID amulets, but...oooohhh, shiny!


I'm with tasonir on this one.
I'm with tasonir on this one.

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Post Thursday, 20th October 2016, 00:49

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

VeryAngryFelid wrote:My intention is to avoid disappointment from being drained after removing harm amulet because you will never wear-id amulets if playing optimally.


Sometimes the power boost form getting a good amulet will increase your survivability more than the downside if it happens to be harm.
I'm with tasonir on this one.

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Post Thursday, 20th October 2016, 01:10

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

I don't feel like discussing "harm, because I think the present round is a show-piece of tavern-style non-discussion: people claim that "Harm should be removed, because it is an interface annoyance. Now, one could talk about how address that. There is the simple numerical approach: less draining; there could be all kinds of other effects on removal. By shouting REMOVE REMOVE REMOVE, you don't assess the actual item.

This is a typical instance why I find it pretty hard to take serious those comments and by extension, I have to admit, the posters behind them.

To be clear, this removal talk cannot be a discussion about power: it's a triviality that "Harm could be arbitrarily strong; the outgoing damage boost has already been made stronger than the incoming damage boost.

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Post Thursday, 20th October 2016, 01:25

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

I don't think people claim harm should be removed because it's an interface annoyance. I say it should be removed because a balance adjustment to damage values should be applied to all characters, not just characters that find and wear a certain amulet.

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Post Thursday, 20th October 2016, 02:21

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

I agree with duvessa on this one. The amulet will either be considered too weak by players to consider using (because it ups damage spikes) or will be way too strong (because it does enough damage to instakill everything with magic dart (this is an extreme)). I feel that no one wants an item that increases spike damage, unless it provides a monstrous benefit to the player. And I feel that just tweaking the numbers probably won't change much.
I'm with tasonir on this one.

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Post Thursday, 20th October 2016, 02:29

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

duvessa wrote:harm next plz
Midn8 wrote:Agreed.
goodcoolguy wrote:Seconding harm removal.
tasonir wrote:Amulets of harm are basically a draining trap that triggers from your inventory, and I've struggled on many early characters trying to kill things on d:3 after the drain took my weapon skill back down to 1... I mean, I could always just not wear ID amulets, but...oooohhh, shiny!
tabstorm wrote:I'm disappointed because I have to keep IDing tons of floor junk because of items like this hypothetical amulet. Even in a world of reduced identify and remove curse scrolls, DCSS characters are largely stable past early game, so trying on a negative effect amulet is more likely to harm me than make me more likely to win. A single amulet does not have that much value.
VeryAngryFelid wrote:Yes, I agree. Carthage Harm must be destroyed
A bunch of one-liners. Nobody mentions damage spikes. Most reasoning is given by tasonir and tabstorm, and they only talk about identification.

It's not my fault if you're unable to get reasons across. Neither is it my fault if your fantasy is limited to "remove pls thx".
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Post Thursday, 20th October 2016, 03:19

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

To be fair, people talked about damage spikes as the reason for "harm generally being a negative when it was added...
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Post Thursday, 20th October 2016, 03:39

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

dpeg wrote:A bunch of one-liners. Nobody mentions damage spikes. Most reasoning is given by tasonir and tabstorm, and they only talk about identification.


One-liners are ok, we are in DCA, not GDD. Nobody is talking about damage spikes for the same reason why nobody is talking about drowning when saying "it's a bad idea to let small children to swim in ocean without adults", it's just obvious. Increasing damage is the only effect of the amulet unless you take it off. We don't even need damage spikes, the amulet makes it much easier to die to a pack of Yaktaurs or Centaurs who deal their average damage.
I've seen just a single character who benefited from harm, it was megazigger of Piginabag with darkness, tornado and powered by death 3. There are no characters who would equip the known amulet before Lair, or in Lair, or in Orc, or in Lair branches or in Vaults.
Who is intended user of the amulet? If damage is increased after applying AC, it is equivalent of Frail 2. If damage is increased before applying AC, it is even worse. It cannot be used by characters with HP penalty as they are already in danger due to damage spike, even without the amulet. Can it be used by races with high HP? Let's check. Species with +30HP: unarmed Troll and Ogre with giant spiked club. Do they need damage increase at melee range? I don't think so. Do they suffer from ranged attack and bad defense? Yes, absolutely, at least before they enchant some dragon armour. Troll relies on running away for healing, it does not combine well with harm. What about species with +20% HP? Centaur. It kites almost everything, I suppose the amulet can be convenient and will save some ammo. Does it increase chance to win? I don't think so, Ce has awful defense. Naga? no way, it cannot run away normally. Deep Dwarf? Yes, probably, except it has some problems with healing and it can make ranged attackers and things like torment even more annoying.

I think the amulet is intended to be good for characters with ranged AoE attacks who have high HP and rely on either Dodging or crazy AC. We don't have such characters before late game and by late game you usually have much better amulets and also there are too many monsters to cover them with attacks unless you have shatter or firestorm.
Last edited by VeryAngryFelid on Thursday, 20th October 2016, 12:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Thursday, 20th October 2016, 04:15

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

We are giving one-liners because we have pointed out what we don't like in other threads and don't feel like repeating ourselves. If Harm would not cause draining when removed if removed as the first possible action in which it could be removed (right after putting it on if uncursed, and righ after ?rc is read if cursed) nobody would really care if it was in the game, the game would just generate two amulets that nobody wants to wear:harm and inaccuracy.
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Post Thursday, 20th October 2016, 07:34

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

I'm not sure this thread was ever really a good fit for DCA, but it certainly isn't now. CYC'd.

Also, I for one encourage everyone to take all of the comments and posters on the Tavern less seriously. This isn't serious business.

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Post Thursday, 20th October 2016, 09:39

DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

I think that all of the trunk watch posts should be moved to another board, they don't provide any advice and usually result in a GDD or CYC discussion

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Post Thursday, 20th October 2016, 11:58

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

VeryAngryFelid wrote:I've seen just a single character who benefited from harm, it was megazigger of Piginabag with darkness, tornado and powered by death 3. There are no characters who would equip the known amulet before Lair, or in Lair, or in Orc, or in Lair branches or in Vaults.

Here's one. I put on an artifact amulet of harm on Lair:5 and never removed it for the rest of a 15 rune game + 2 completed zigs. This was also when the damage bonus in/out was equal instead of in the player's favor (but before Torment received the damage bonus). The increased damage didn't matter (even though I deliberately neglected training Fighting to a reasonable level until Vaults) because my damage output was so high that nothing could have enough turns (or even reach me) to do significant damage before dying. I would say this is even easier to repeat now with the bonuses even more in favor of the player compared to when I played that game.

Edit: BTW, my personal opinion is that I like Harm and would prefer it to stay in the game, but for the drain on removal to be changed to *Fragile instead.

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Post Thursday, 20th October 2016, 12:42

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

Floodkiller wrote:Here's one. I put on an artifact amulet of harm on Lair:5 and never removed it for the rest of a 15 rune game + 2 completed zigs. This was also when the damage bonus in/out was equal instead of in the player's favor (but before Torment received the damage bonus). The increased damage didn't matter (even though I deliberately neglected training Fighting to a reasonable level until Vaults) because my damage output was so high that nothing could have enough turns (or even reach me) to do significant damage before dying. I would say this is even easier to repeat now with the bonuses even more in favor of the player compared to when I played that game.

Edit: BTW, my personal opinion is that I like Harm and would prefer it to stay in the game, but for the drain on removal to be changed to *Fragile instead.


I was wrong in my previous post, harm is equivalent of frail 2, not frail 1. What can I say about your character? You are a great player, I wouldn't dare to wear frail 2.5 mutation with -20% HP species. And I don't see any logged messages about being in danger.

Edit. Oh, there is a small excuse.

  Code:
  9998 | D:8      | Gained mutation: You are robust (+10% HP). [mutagenic meat]


But I am still really impressed/shocked.
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Post Thursday, 20th October 2016, 12:51

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

Midn8 wrote:I agree with duvessa on this one. The amulet will either be considered too weak by players to consider using (because it ups damage spikes) or will be way too strong (because it does enough damage to instakill everything with magic dart (this is an extreme)). I feel that no one wants an item that increases spike damage, unless it provides a monstrous benefit to the player. And I feel that just tweaking the numbers probably won't change much.


This was the post directly before Dpeg's post that "Nobody mentioned damage spikes"

Notably, dpeg quoted a different line from Midn8 but skipped this one, directly before his post. If you're going to purposely argue in bad faith and pick only the quotes that support your complaint, then why bother to pretend to try to engage at all? You asked for better responses, you got them, then pretended they didn't exist.

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Post Thursday, 20th October 2016, 13:07

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

VeryAngryFelid wrote:You are a great player.

If you looked at the ttyrec of the one instance of me using Death's Door that game, you would quickly retract that statement.

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Post Thursday, 20th October 2016, 13:26

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

Floodkiller wrote:
VeryAngryFelid wrote:You are a great player.

If you looked at the ttyrec of the one instance of me using Death's Door that game, you would quickly retract that statement.


You are still a great player, I believe that amulet can be treated as self-imposed challenge. I think amulet of harm made Death's Door expiration even more dangerous than it is usually.
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Post Thursday, 20th October 2016, 13:37

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
Floodkiller wrote:
VeryAngryFelid wrote:You are a great player.

If you looked at the ttyrec of the one instance of me using Death's Door that game, you would quickly retract that statement.


You are still a great player, I believe that amulet can be treated as self-imposed challenge. I think amulet of harm made Death's Door expiration even more dangerous than it is usually.


I meant the part where I activated it at near full HP while moderately safe in Abyss because I fat fingered the spell :P

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Post Thursday, 20th October 2016, 13:47

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

Floodkiller wrote:I meant the part where I activated it at near full HP while moderately safe in Abyss because I fat fingered the spell :P


This is what I use to avoid this problem
  Code:
confirm_action += Borg
confirm_action += Death's
confirm_action += Corrupt
confirm_action += Silence
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Post Thursday, 20th October 2016, 16:58

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

dowan wrote:This was the post directly before Dpeg's post that "Nobody mentioned damage spikes"

Notably, dpeg quoted a different line from Midn8 but skipped this one, directly before his post. If you're going to purposely argue in bad faith and pick only the quotes that support your complaint, then why bother to pretend to try to engage at all? You asked for better responses, you got them, then pretended they didn't exist.
I am purposely arguing in bad faith because I hate tavern posters even more than I hate players. But perhaps it just took me a while to assemble my posting.

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Post Thursday, 20th October 2016, 17:46

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

Oh dpeg, you know you love us tavern folk. But that's what the wonderful "Fake edit" or "Ninja Edit" is for, if someone posts something that messes up your post while you're typing it!

You always become what you hate. And you're a tavern poster too.
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Post Thursday, 20th October 2016, 19:49

DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

I don't really get why dpeg bothers arguing with anyone on tavern when he clearly doesn't like it(and possibly most of us). Unless your position is PR you actually don't have to listen to anything that we say whatsoever or even take it into consideration. You don't even have to argue, you can just say that amulet of harm is staying in because it is and us poor tavern dwellers will have to deal with it
Last edited by CypherZel on Thursday, 20th October 2016, 21:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Thursday, 20th October 2016, 20:49

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

dpeg is that guy who says he "hates drama" but clearly loves it. i, on the other hand, clearly love drama but readily acknowledge it

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Post Thursday, 20th October 2016, 20:53

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

I think sometimes you guys just have trouble understanding the very subtle and dry sense of humor many native Germans have. I've seen lots of serious replies to posts that seem tongue-in-cheek to me.
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Post Thursday, 20th October 2016, 21:11

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

Skorpionkrieger: Bist du einer von uns? Ich werde gar nicht erst versuchen, Spaß zu erklären. Ist sowieso nur mit Panzer lustig! :)

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Post Thursday, 20th October 2016, 21:18

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

Eine halbe Tasse Staubzucker
Ein Viertel Teeloffel Salz
Eine Messerspitze turkisches Haschisch
Ein halbes Pfund Butter
Ein Teeloffel Vanillenzucker
Ein halbes Pfund Mehl
Einhundertfunfzig Gramm gemahlene Nusse
Ein wenig extra Staubzucker
... und keine Eier

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Post Thursday, 20th October 2016, 21:52

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

I'm not going to remove amulet of harm. At this time, I'm convinced that it is (broadly) a good item for DCSS. It may be that the draining penalty is a problem (I kind of like that it creates more penalty to the amulet ID game, but I'm not wedded to it) then it could be easily switched to *Fragile as Floodkiller said above; the *Fragile solution is a bit odd in that it could conceivably cause someone to want to collect more than one amulet of harm, using them as consumable damage boosts right before using powerful and limited damaging effects.

I like the amulet of harm as an item to use, and I've used it myself on several characters. I think the tradeoff it offers is interesting in crawl and it creates a different feel to the game when it's in use. It's also one of the few things in crawl that makes a character more powerful without making them more safe, and in a game where snowballing safety is usually the dominant strategy, that's neat.

I don't think there's any point to providing game logs as evidence that the amulet is good or bad, but for anyone who is interested in how I use the amulet of harm, of my last 100 games with XL > 15, these were the ones where I was wearing amulet of harm at the end of the game, won or lost. I'm pretty sure I've had a few more who wore harm for a while then switched to something else by the end of the game. Ru is a theme here, but that's at least 70% accident, since I haven't been consciously intending to worship Ru while wearing harm or wear harm while worshipping Ru. Ru is overall a good amulet of harm god, since it gives both defensive powers and also strong, limited offensive powers that the amulet can power up.

DEMo^Ru: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Lasty/morgu ... 135614.txt
HECK^Hep: http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 003947.txt
DECK^Ru: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Lasty/morgu ... 204022.txt
SpAE^Ru (died @ XL 19 -- note the extremely unnecessary level of stubbornness involved in that death): http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Lasty/morgu ... 000417.txt
DgSk: http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 172140.txt
OpMo^Ru: http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 193304.txt
DgHu: http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 020355.txt
BaFE^Ru: http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 231627.txt

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Post Thursday, 20th October 2016, 22:05

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

dpeg wrote:Skorpionkrieger: Bist du einer von uns? Ich werde gar nicht erst versuchen, Spaß zu erklären. Ist sowieso nur mit Panzer lustig! :)


I have some german blood, but I'm speaking from my experiences with germans who became american citizens.
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Post Thursday, 20th October 2016, 22:49

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

scorpionwarrior: Cool! Then you'll be familiar with my trope of "Germans have no humour", too. (By the way, I'd never talk of "German blood", that's a type historical sensitivity affecting us the most. Don't worry about it.)

Lasty: thanks for detailed explanation. There was also talk in ##crawl-dev how "Harm can be really useful, depending on build (which is an extremely positive property).

duvessa: The king of one liners is offended?

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Post Thursday, 20th October 2016, 22:59

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

Lasty wrote:using them as consumable damage boosts right before using powerful and limited damaging effects.


I would love to see more items to work like this. It is always exciting to see a new item until you notice it is a duplicate of what you already have.

It's also one of the few things in crawl that makes a character more powerful without making them more safe


You can try training Deep Elf of Vehumet for fire storm ignoring defenses, glass cannon is not a rare thing.
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Post Thursday, 20th October 2016, 23:36

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed


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Post Friday, 21st October 2016, 00:39

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

dpeg wrote:I am purposely arguing in bad faith because I hate tavern posters even more than I hate players.

Good. Let the hate flow through you.

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Post Friday, 21st October 2016, 00:51

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

Lasty wrote:the *Fragile solution is a bit odd in that it could conceivably cause someone to want to collect more than one amulet of harm, using them as consumable damage boosts right before using powerful and limited damaging effects.

I like the amulet of harm as an item to use

Why don't you want there to be "consumable damage boosts"? Torment works like Harm except that Torment can be resisted but not double-dipped and doesn't apply to monsters that are out of LOS or not yet created/summoned, so you can get jumped by full-HP monsters after losing half your health.
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Post Friday, 21st October 2016, 01:43

Re: DCSS TrunkWatch™: "Dismissal dismissed

Now that I think about it, wearing Harm on a normal-ish HP character is sort of like being a VS. Except you can heal, and don't have regeneration, or pseudo-vampirism. But you're frail(er), and do more damage. I'm not sure if this makes it a good item to use, though. I can't think of many situations where, assuming good play, that the effect of Harm will help you survive a situation where you would have otherwise died. In a game with permadeath driven by wide damage distributions, defensive play will almost always be the best strategy.
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