New charm idea: Double Strike

[Midn8]

With the removal of haste, people have been desperately trying to find a good spell to fill the slot. My idea is a new spell called 'Double Strike'.

The spell would either be a Lvl *5* spell (could be 6 or 7) but might cost a different amount of XP to cast than it's mana cost (like a level 7 spell miscast rate but costs 5 mana to keep the spell from costing too much mana). Or we could just set it to level 6 if that isn't too powerful.

This spell is cast in the same amount of time as an attack from your weapon. You then hit a target in melee range twice. This spell is interesting because it allows the bursting down of dangerous targets while not being a super no-brainer like haste.

Needs some polishing but what do you think?

EDIT: To clarify, you cast the spell like freeze, except it takes [swing speed] auts. Then you get to thwack them twice on that same turn.

[duvessa]

I agree.

[Shard1697]

I could also cast spectral weapon

[BabyRage]

I agree with duvessa.

[Nino]

Do you see any concerns with doubling your attack speed as a level 5 charm

[cerebovssquire]

i agree with duvessa

[tasonir]

I'm not sure it's really a charm if it only hits once, and while +100% is stronger than haste (+50%) was, having it be limited to only one attack might be enough to make up for it? You'll certainly run out of mana fast, but if you're mostly melee (and you will be, since you're hitting things with your weapon as part of the spell) then you probably have plenty of unused mana lying around.

Could be really overpowered and a huge hassle on vine stalkers, who will probably bite back enough mana to more or less use this constantly, and thus have to go through the hassle of casting it constantly on everything they fight.

[Airwolf]

So I spend some MP to get 2 swings in the time it takes to normally take 2 swings?

[WingedEspeon]

Sounds good to me. IMO the game needs more incentive to hybridize, with all the good spells like spectral weapon and phase shift getting removed or nerfed.

[Shard1697]

So I spend some MP to get 2 swings in the time it takes to normally take 2 swings?

No, as I understand it from the description you cast it, and then aim at something in melee range, which you melee twice. So 5 MP for 2 melees in 1 turn.

Spectral Weapon joke aside I think this would be fine from a design standpoint, would actually make you care about MP

[Leszczynek]

I wonder if including enough charms requiring either X MP/turn or having to be recast very often would make Sif or even Vehumet a viable choice for meleedudes. Probably not, but at least there'd be a pretext to write new horribly misleading guides.

As for the spell itself, it's worth trying out in trunk I think.

[archaeo]

Sounds good to me. IMO the game needs more incentive to hybridize, with all the good spells like spectral weapon and phase shift getting removed or nerfed.

I don't really know that that's true; hexs, summons, necromancy, and translocations are all still excellent reasons to "hybridize," after all.

[luckless]

I also think this sort of spell is worth trying out, but I'd prefer something closer to a stronger Infusion: you take a turn to cast it like any other spell, and until you cancel it it uses a bunch of MP per swing to greatly magnify your weapon attacks in some way.

The advantage of this kind of spell over the OP's is that it's more tactical: it's only worth the turn investment unless you commit to it, and in that case unless you waste another turn to end it early it'll eat through all your remaining MP in a few turns.

[Midn8]

Do you see any concerns with doubling your attack speed as a level 5 charm

It isn't a double in attack speed, its a single double strike.

And luckless I like your idea. Seems like a decentish plan.

[Psieye]

until you cancel it it uses a bunch of MP per swing to greatly magnify your weapon attacks in some way.

"You spend a turn and lots of MP to get nothing but a buff" does not float for Charms. Neither does adding "oh and some downside that requires you to press 5 a lot". These effects are given to consumables and god powers.

"I get a powerful buff (with possible downside), but while it's up I can't use other buffs in this group" is Transmutations.


It seems Charms need some guidelines to establish a proper identity. I should make a GDD thread for this.

[luckless]

"You spend a turn and lots of MP to get nothing but a buff" does not float for Charms. Neither does adding "oh and some downside that requires you to press 5 a lot". These effects are given to consumables and god powers.

eh, I don't see it. Quickly running out of MP does more than require you to rest after a fight. It prevents you from using emergency spells/god powers if things go pear-shaped. That's largely why ghost moths are scary.

"I get a powerful buff (with possible downside), but while it's up I can't use other buffs in this group" is Transmutations.

MAYBE that could legit be the exclusive province of Transmutations if Transmutations didn't call for a niche build (viz., Unarmed and in many/most cases not relying on armor).

[Psieye]

It prevents you from using emergency spells/god powers if things go pear-shaped.

In other words it encourages ever more tedious behaviour on the road to optimum play.

"I get a powerful buff (with possible downside), but while it's up I can't use other buffs in this group" is Transmutations.

MAYBE that could legit be the exclusive province of Transmutations if Transmutations didn't call for a niche build (viz., Unarmed and in many/most cases not relying on armor).

Translation: "I get upsides, of which some I don't care about. Plus downsides, many of which I can mitigate."

Granted, the EXP budget tightening means the existing Transmutations could be changed to better enforce my quoted province.

[dowan]

Did... some of you not read the OP at all? It's not super haste, it's basically saving up 1 attack in advance (It would have to have a very short duration not to have the obvious "always cast it" issue).

It would be handy, I guess, if you have nothing else to do while a monster approaches or something... but it seems tough to justify learning a level 5 spell rather than using that XP to get throwing or something.

[Nino]

Did... some of you not read the OP at all? It's not super haste, it's basically saving up 1 attack in advance (It would have to have a very short duration not to have the obvious "always cast it" issue).

i misunderstood. but would it be something like delayed fireball where the buff persists indefinitely until you attack something? or expires after a few turns, but then you'd just cast it again when it runs out and resume exploring?

maybe a brief exhaustion afterwards to balance it out so it might not always be wise to start off with a double attack

[Psieye]

I'd rather this (with tweaks) was an Okawaru power, not a Charm. Like this:
- Replaces Finesse, same piety requirement and cost.
- Attack 4 times in 1 turn.

Or even "while alt-Finesse is up, your next 4 attacks take no time. Doing anything (even moving) other than attacking cancels this buff."

[dowan]

What's wrong with finesse as is?

[Psieye]

What's wrong with finesse as is?

Nothing, which is why I don't think this effect has much chance of actually making it in-game. I don't see any justification why it MUST be a Charms and not a god power. If taken as a god power, there already is one in the same design space.

[dowan]

Are you just trying to derail the proposal then? It's a weird circular argument to say the proposed spell is better as a god ability, but if it's a god ability it should replace finesse, but finesse doesn't need to be replaced, therefore the spell that should be an invocation that should just replace finesse shouldn't go into the game. You're debating with yourself at this point I think.

As for the actual proposal, once again, while I could imagine times when spending 5 mp and a fraction of a turn for a double attack the next turn would be worthwhile, I can't imagine it'd come up enough to be worth the spell slots, nevermind the XP for a level 5 charms spell.

If on the other hand you meant it the other way, where you spend 5 mp and a fraction of a turn for a double attack right now, that's perhaps an interesting design space (it's essentially a 5mp freeze spell that uses your weapon damage and delay instead of some spellpower determined value). This means it's basically a direct damage spell, aimed at fighter type characters (your weapon damage needs to be 1/2 or better than a conjuration to be worthwhile. Still, why not learn it? So it becomes a bit of a no-brainer I think.

[VeryAngryFelid]

This means it's basically a direct damage spell, aimed at fighter type characters (your weapon damage needs to be 1/2 or better than a conjuration to be worthwhile.

This is interesting IMHO. Something like launcher but depends on spell power AND wielded melee weapon. A bit similar to Spectral Weapon but with enough difference (1 attack only). I imagine the spell might work differently for different weapons: more damage for M&F, AoE for axes, increased range for polearms, extra damage vs confused/distracted/sleeping for short blades. Not sure about staves and long blades.

[Psieye]

It's a weird circular argument to say the proposed spell is better as a god ability, but if it's a god ability it should replace finesse, but finesse doesn't need to be replaced, therefore the spell that should be an invocation that should just replace finesse shouldn't go into the game. You're debating with yourself at this point I think.

It's roundabout but it's not circular. The misinterpretation is in the first step: it's not "better as a god ability", it's "not good enough to be a Charms, but it might be salvageable as a god ability instead". Then add "except we already have Finesse" thus knocking it out of god ability too.

[dowan]

Ah, I guess I missed that first part then. Thanks for explaining.

[Midn8]

I always thought Oka wasn't for the finesse or haste (of which on my most recent game with Oka i use both about 10 times each) but rather a bunch of weapons and armour thrown at you. And the other god that does that prohibits spells.

[dowan]

Nah, that's basically backward. Except you mean finesse or heroism, not haste (it used to be might and haste way way back when), but heroism is the cornerstone of oka, and finesse is double damage effectively, a huge buff at a high cost, but very nice to have when you need it.

The gifts are nice, but there's no guarantee you'll get anything even remotely useful. Seriously, I've had games where I was showered with crappy shields and weapons I didn't even have the skill trained for. Of course, sometimes Oka smiles on you and your first gift is your endgame weapon and your second gift is a randart +18 CPA. So it's a nice bonus, but not really a great reason to take the god on its own, because it just might not happen.

Seriously, don't underestimate heroism. It's pretty low cost, and +5 to all combat skills is nothing to sneeze at, especially early game.