Transient Resistance can make up for haste


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Mines Malingerer

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Post Monday, 10th October 2016, 12:58

Transient Resistance can make up for haste

Removal of Haste make Charm school even more worthless(which has gone through many deletion of spells)

I think something like 'Elemental Shield' can be compensation for haste spell.

The shield gives you not immediate effect, it works like Quazlal's passive power.

When you hit by some elemental like fire, ice, or else, you will be given temporary resistance for it, and minus for opposite elemental kind.

Player should give care to use this spell, cuz if there are monsters with many spells with opposite type, use of this spell can be harmful.
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Post Monday, 10th October 2016, 14:34

Re: Transient Resistance can make up for haste

Is there anything wrong with purely strategic spells, in the manner of r/dmsl? I feel like a spell that gave rf+ and rc+ wouldn't be broken as a level 5/6 charms spell (in fact it would probably be underpowered). I can even imagine the strategic question of 'should I train the charms to learn this + eventually dmsl' being an interesting one for a squishy caster with other priorities/an octopode or something.

Wouldn't be the flashiest spell, tho, and it suffers from the 'if you have the experience to spare, this is always right to learn' problem.
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Post Monday, 10th October 2016, 14:53

Re: Transient Resistance can make up for haste

There is always experience to spare if the game runs long enough and the player can always choose to make it run long enough, even without going to extended. The problem is with the experience, not the fact that there's something good you can do with the experience.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 10th October 2016, 15:03

Re: Transient Resistance can make up for haste

I think Charms school is fine now. It still has useful level 8 (Necromutation), level 6 (DMsl) and level 5 (Battlesphere) spells, current situation when high levels spells are used by "casters" mostly is IMHO better than situation when a character in CPA had no spells in extended except a single level 6 spell.
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Post Monday, 10th October 2016, 15:14

Re: Transient Resistance can make up for haste

amaril wrote:Is there anything wrong with purely strategic spells, in the manner of r/dmsl? I feel like a spell that gave rf+ and rc+ wouldn't be broken as a level 5/6 charms spell (in fact it would probably be underpowered). I can even imagine the strategic question of 'should I train the charms to learn this + eventually dmsl' being an interesting one for a squishy caster with other priorities/an octopode or something.


Resistances already exist on items, where you'd usually have the interesting problem of choosing from several useful properties to fit to a limited set of slots. The existence of a resistance spell would make the items' decision less interesting, since the investment required for a spell is generally less valuable than getting a free item slot.

Resistance also exists as a consumable, and as with haste, duplicating it with a spell effect is probably not going to go over well.
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Post Monday, 10th October 2016, 15:41

Re: Transient Resistance can make up for haste

Note that Crawl used to have the spells Resist Poison and Insulation, but they were removed for a reason.
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Post Monday, 10th October 2016, 15:45

Re: Transient Resistance can make up for haste

kimnosuk wrote:Removal of Haste make Charm school even more worthless(which has gone through many deletion of spells)
Charms have been in a strange design-place forever. It is not clear what will happen to them; outright removal is definitely an option.

I think something like 'Elemental Shield' can be compensation for haste spell. The shield gives you not immediate effect, it works like Quazlal's passive power. When you hit by some elemental like fire, ice, or else, you will be given temporary resistance for it, and minus for opposite elemental kind.
I was about to say "no, no, can't be done", but the final twist is interesting. Still not sure whether it'd be a good spell, but you made it discussion-worthy, in my opinion. :)

amaril wrote:Is there anything wrong with purely strategic spells, in the manner of r/dmsl?
Yes, I think so. Spells are a gameplay mechanic with several costs: one turn to cast, MP, hunger, spell slots, experience. The most relevant of these should be, in my opinion, the turn and the MP cost. These are tactical, i.e. short-term costs. I don't think it's a good idea to work off the long-term XP costs. For example, no matter where we put a strategic spell (i.e. whatever its level), there will be a point before you woulnd't use it (XP cost too high), and a point after which you should use it (XP cost cheap by then). Sure, players have to find the sweet spot (XP interval) when to pick up such spells, but I am sure that this is much less interesting than the decisions ordinary spells face: when to use, how to use.
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Post Monday, 10th October 2016, 15:53

Re: Transient Resistance can make up for haste

The most relevant cost for getting/using spells already is experience (and stat allocation, which you leave out). I can't believe I'm reading this.
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Mines Malingerer

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Post Monday, 10th October 2016, 19:17

Re: Transient Resistance can make up for haste

dpeg wrote:
kimnosuk wrote:Removal of Haste make Charm school even more worthless(which has gone through many deletion of spells)
Charms have been in a strange design-place forever. It is not clear what will happen to them; outright removal is definitely an option.


Charm has rly different taste, compared to other schools. Yes, and That distinctness make more playstyles, even it can be shown in present backround 'Skald'.
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Post Monday, 10th October 2016, 19:24

Re: Transient Resistance can make up for haste

kimnosuk: I agree, and removal is the last resort. We're definitely trying to keep Charms! This is not like the Divinations school, where it was easy to see that the effects do not belong on spells. Thread like yours, which suggest new Charms spells, are helpful.

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Post Monday, 10th October 2016, 19:47

Re: Transient Resistance can make up for haste

The crux of the Charms issue doesn't care what the buffs actually are. It's twofold:
- Casting spells out of combat is tedious, as optimal play demands you have those Charms up all the time (since they cost precious turns in combat).
- Spending a turn which inherently doesn't advance combat to its conclusion feels like a boring detour. Because Charms has no strategic cost (after you invest EXP), buffs can't be powerful like with consumables. So you spend turns not solving the problem (killdudes), just so you prepare to killdudes slightly better later.

Once we have a better framework for Charms, then we can think about effects that are balanced for the new paradigm. My suggestion for that:
- Charms cannot be cast unless an enemy is within (short) range
- The act of casting a Charm should deal direct damage or otherwise do something that actually progresses combat (e.g. mix in Lesser Beckoning with a buff)
- All Charm buffs auto-end very quickly after combat ends (as fast as Berserk wearing off)

Regarding that last point, instead of Berserk's "keep hitting something in melee" as the condition to maintain it, how about "must keep casting spells" (only for some Charms)? So some of your Charms buffs expire within 2 turns of not casting anything.

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Post Monday, 10th October 2016, 20:10

Re: Transient Resistance can make up for haste

Psieye: I agree with the analysis, but there are some ideas how to do it better. Here's some I've seen so far:
  1. Make the effect strong but dependent on tactical parameters, such as absence/presence of certain terrain/monsters, perhaps with patterns.
  2. Make the effect strong but very short-lived (a few turns, so short that the one-turn cost matters).
  3. Strong effect but with serious drawback (e.g. kimnosuk's resistance spell proposal).
We agree that out-of-combat casting is not good. I am not sure that direct damage is necessary. Spells like Invisibility, Passwall, Confusing Touch can all stay, in my opinion. Additional damage is a good idea for some spells, no question about that.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Monday, 10th October 2016, 20:13

Re: Transient Resistance can make up for haste

I like the concepts of continuous spell casting in battle. But it should not work as Extension.
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Post Monday, 10th October 2016, 20:29

Re: Transient Resistance can make up for haste

dpeg wrote:Strong effect but with serious drawback (e.g. kimnosuk's resistance spell proposal).

So long as 'serious drawback' isn't actually 'you sit and press 5 while out of combat', this works too. Hence my view that early-midgame Charm effects (upside and downside) all end very quickly out of combat. Or something like this...

Contagious Curse of Awesome (temporary name)
- Gives contam throughout its duration.
- Even at 0 spellpower, that duration is long enough to send you to RED contam. Higher spellpower makes the buff better, does not affect duration at all.
- Every time you hit an enemy, the duration shortens and that enemy gets this buff (without the benefits of higher spellpower). They cannot 're-infect' you.
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Post Monday, 10th October 2016, 21:11

Re: Transient Resistance can make up for haste

What would contam actually do to those enemies, though?

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Post Monday, 10th October 2016, 22:15

Re: Transient Resistance can make up for haste

I should have explicitly said "the upside has not been defined in this example".

At risk of getting distracted by balance concerns, here's an example with actual details:
- Spellpower 0 = +2 slaying, Spellpower 100 = +10 slaying
- Duration = 30 turns, every hit => -3 turns off duration
- Hit enemies get +2 slaying regardless of spellpower, for 15 turns (yes, asymmetry to how much your duration loses)
- Every turn you spend with this buff, you get contam. All 30 turns = RED contam

Idea being, you kill them faster so you don't care that they got their offense buffed. What the buff actually turns out to be is irrelevant, it's the downside mechanic I want to discuss.

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Post Tuesday, 11th October 2016, 15:48

Re: Transient Resistance can make up for haste

How about the spell that impacts only an attack/spellcasting after cast?

E.G. Fiery Infusion (Charm, Level 3)
Duration: ~100 turns
Effect: After cast this spell, your next X(increased with spellpower, 1~5) attacks deal 30% more fire damage.

Not every battle player should use this spells again and again in battle, but situations like treating hydra, the player should invest turns in battle.

If spells of this kind added some more and it can't be cast at a time, player should check which elemental infusion they shall use in next battle.
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Post Tuesday, 11th October 2016, 16:28

Re: Transient Resistance can make up for haste

kimnosuk wrote:E.G. Fiery Infusion (Charm, Level 3)
Duration: ~100 turns
Effect: After cast this spell, your next X(increased with spellpower, 1~5) attacks deal 30% more fire damage.

Make that:
- Your next 1 attack (does not stack)
- Deals 30% + X (based on spellpower)
- If target dies from this one attack, explodes as a 'cone of fire' (AoE and flame clouds shaped like a cone pointing back towards player)

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Post Tuesday, 11th October 2016, 16:56

Re: Transient Resistance can make up for haste

What's the point in dealing 130% damage with two actions if you can do 100%+100% instead? Or is it instant (takes no time to cast)? Then it's no brainer and should be 1 time only like delayed fireball.
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Post Tuesday, 11th October 2016, 21:50

Re: Transient Resistance can make up for haste

I guess 'Empowering Next Attack or Spell' kind of spells is quite good choices if made less crude.

Can imagine something extreme like this.

"Critical Precision, Charms 6Lv."
Your next melee/ranged attack(Not Penetrating ones) or single-targeted spell will hit the target at any condition and deal maximum damage output.

This is somewhat radical, but I think spell like this can be some sorts of magics that player considers to memorize, when he want to role out the variables of one or two ranged deadly target(with smite or Call damnation) at a high cost.
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Post Wednesday, 12th October 2016, 04:43

Re: Transient Resistance can make up for haste

kimnosuk wrote:I guess 'Empowering Next Attack or Spell' kind of spells is quite good choices if made less crude.

Can imagine something extreme like this.

"Critical Precision, Charms 6Lv."
Your next melee/ranged attack(Not Penetrating ones) or single-targeted spell will hit the target at any condition and deal maximum damage output.

This is somewhat radical, but I think spell like this can be some sorts of magics that player considers to memorize, when he want to role out the variables of one or two ranged deadly target(with smite or Call damnation) at a high cost.

Only problem I see is that as a transmuter this means that you can kill anything in under 3 turns and you only have to be in melee for one of those turns with Critical Precision->blade hands->melee attack.
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Post Wednesday, 12th October 2016, 08:28

Re: Transient Resistance can make up for haste

kimnosuk wrote:How about the spell that impacts only an attack/spellcasting after cast?
E.G. Fiery Infusion (Charm, Level 3)
Duration: ~100 turns
Effect: After cast this spell, your next X(increased with spellpower, 1~5) attacks deal 30% more fire damage.


I think Infusion-style drawback is actually meaningful. Imagine if this spell drains 3MP per hit. You'd definitely think twice before using it.

WingedEspeon wrote:
kimnosuk wrote:I guess 'Empowering Next Attack or Spell' kind of spells is quite good choices if made less crude.

Can imagine something extreme like this.

"Critical Precision, Charms 6Lv."
Your next melee/ranged attack(Not Penetrating ones) or single-targeted spell will hit the target at any condition and deal maximum damage output.

This is somewhat radical, but I think spell like this can be some sorts of magics that player considers to memorize, when he want to role out the variables of one or two ranged deadly target(with smite or Call damnation) at a high cost.

Only problem I see is that as a transmuter this means that you can kill anything in under 3 turns and you only have to be in melee for one of those turns with Critical Precision->blade hands->melee attack.


Or rod of inaccuracy, or something like dark maul. Part of the problem with Haste IMO is that it is a force multiplier, i.e. it makes strong characters even stronger. This Critical Precision proposal has the same problem, IMO.

Speaking of blade hands, it's already a "cast once, get an X% damage boost" type of spell that people seem to want to reinvent. Maybe all Charms should be Transmutations instead - replace Haste with Executioner Form.

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Post Wednesday, 12th October 2016, 10:13

Re: Transient Resistance can make up for haste

Charms and Transmutation are different. Transmutation spells have tendency to give the player bonus and penalty at the same time for long duration. Charms give player bonus(weaker than Transmutation) but not much penalty for rather shorter duration.

If Charms can give strategic empowering at a high cost(many MPs and Turn) and the spell should be used in battles, it can differentiate the usage of two schools.
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Post Wednesday, 12th October 2016, 14:05

Re: Transient Resistance can make up for haste

goodcoolguy wrote:There is always experience to spare if the game runs long enough and the player can always choose to make it run long enough, even without going to extended. The problem is with the experience, not the fact that there's something good you can do with the experience.


If you are farming experience outside of the normal branch order you are decreasing your chances of winning, not increasing. There is not infinite experience in a 3 rune game, please don't start another nonsense meme, we have enough of those around here already.

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Post Wednesday, 12th October 2016, 14:18

Re: Transient Resistance can make up for haste

dowan wrote:If you are farming experience outside of the normal branch order you are decreasing your chances of winning, not increasing. There is not infinite experience in a 3 rune game, please don't start another nonsense meme, we have enough of those around here already.


I think he is trying to say that if you clear all branches of 3 rune, you have too much XP even with hardest combos. Without any farming, just autoexplore Crypt, Elf etc. I agree then.

Here are some Mummies:

  Code:
* Level 22.5 Fighting
 - Level 14.0 Maces & Flails
 - Level 1.5 Throwing
 * Level 17.7 Armour
 * Level 15.8 Dodging
 - Level 12.5 Spellcasting
   Level 2.6 Conjurations
 - Level 9.0 Hexes
 + Level 13.5 Charms
 - Level 4.0 Summonings
 - Level 6.7 Necromancy
 - Level 12.5 Translocations
 + Level 14.6 Air Magic
   Level 2.5 Poison Magic
 - Level 14.0 Invocations
 + Level 15.9 Evocations


  Code:
* Level 23.0 Fighting
 - Level 14.0 Long Blades
 + Level 15.5 Armour
 + Level 15.4 Dodging
 - Level 1.5 Stealth
 - Level 5.0 Shields
 - Level 16.0 Spellcasting
 - Level 15.6 Conjurations
 - Level 2.1 Hexes
 - Level 9.8 Charms
 - Level 10.6 Necromancy
 - Level 6.1 Translocations
 - Level 10.3 Air Magic
 - Level 10.0 Poison Magic
 - Level 14.0 Invocations
 - Level 12.3 Evocations


  Code:
 + Level 23.2 Fighting
   Level 5.3(13.9) Short Blades
 + Level 19.2(19.4) Long Blades
 - Level 15.7 Armour
 + Level 18.8 Dodging
 - Level 2.1 Stealth
 - Level 2.0 Spellcasting
 - Level 3.9 Charms
 - Level 8.0 Necromancy
 - Level 11.0 Translocations
 - Level 4.0 Air Magic
 - Level 14.0 Invocations
 - Level 16.8 Evocations
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Post Wednesday, 12th October 2016, 14:55

Re: Transient Resistance can make up for haste

OK, so that's as much XP as you get then. Saying there's too much or too little is one thing, and one can easily wizmode up a character with the 'appropriate' level of skill to test with. Saying the player can always just get as much XP as he wants is quite another thing. I mean, why didn't you have 27 fighting, 27 long blades, 27 dodging, etc?

You didn't because there wasn't enough XP to do that.

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