Rewrite Crawl (split from Remove hunger)


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Post Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 14:51

Re: Rewrite Crawl (split from Remove hunger)

tabstorm wrote:Brogue avoids specific damage feedback though
No, it is much better than that, and very well designed: Brogue does indeed not have HP numbers. Instead, looking at a monster will tell you "An attack of this monster may deal up to 35% of your maximal health." Similarly, your damage to monsters is indicated. In other words, everything is relative to max HP, therefore avoiding the need to print concrete (but arbitrary) health numbers.

(Sorry, I realised just now that I'm regurgitating Floodkiller's posting.)

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Post Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 15:31

Re: Rewrite Crawl (split from Remove hunger)

CypherZel wrote:Code standards, there's a reason why code in industry isn't a shit show, because it gets peer reviewed. Shit show, I think that word is about used up now

Allow me to amaze you then: there's an awful lot of code in the industry that you'd like to call "a shit show".

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Post Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 15:32

Re: Rewrite Crawl (split from Remove hunger)

You are working on the wrong ends man

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Post Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 15:39

Re: Rewrite Crawl (split from Remove hunger)

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Post Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 15:43

Re: Rewrite Crawl (split from Remove hunger)

CypherZel wrote:You are working on the wrong ends man

I consider my job to have a pretty heavily regulated coding environment, but at one point I had to deal with a broken custom PDF export function, from a co-worker who had just left, that had all of the variables named after memes and converted into German for shits and giggles. Bad shit happens everywhere.

The comments didn't explain what the variables did, of course.
Last edited by Floodkiller on Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 16:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 16:08

Re: Rewrite Crawl (split from Remove hunger)

CypherZel wrote:Code standards, there's a reason why code in industry isn't a shit show, because it gets peer reviewed. Shit show, I think that word is about used up now

i have worked for several companies 'in industry', including one of the largest software companies in the world, and literally all of them had code i would describe as a "shitshow".

e: beaten

e2: to elaborate, the same pressures that produce shitty code in open-source projects (limited time, complex requirements, legacy decisions) are just as present in professional code. the main difference is that in a real job, your co-workers may make fun of you for writing bad code, whereas in an open source environment, literally anyone can find your terrible hack and make fun of you for it. i'm not sure which is worse, but in practice, neither seems to be much of a deterrent.
Last edited by PleasingFungus on Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 16:14, edited 2 times in total.

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Post Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 16:09

Re: Rewrite Crawl (split from Remove hunger)

Floodkiller wrote: all of the variable named after memes

Lmao, I liked to do that in my university home works.

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Post Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 16:10

Re: Rewrite Crawl (split from Remove hunger)

BabyRage wrote:
Floodkiller wrote: all of the variable named after memes

Lmao, I liked to do that in my university home works.


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Post Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 16:12

Re: Rewrite Crawl (split from Remove hunger)

I guess I had too much faith in standard business practices, I still haven't worked in industry yet. I guess this is why top computer scientists who are able to reduce the amount of storage needed on large scale projects are so valued

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Post Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 16:26

Re: Rewrite Crawl (split from Remove hunger)

also worth noting that crawl does have some peer review, both from devs reading code before and as it's pushed, and from people in the community watching our backs. it's certainly not perfect, and a system where e.g. two people have to 'sign off' on each commit (the author + the committer) would probably help reduce bugs, but I suspect it'd be hard to get 'buy-in' for that sort of thing. it'd be annoying to have to bug people for every little change, and you'd be encouraged to bundle changes together into larger batches to minimize amount of time spent asking people, though of course the more code you're submitting at a pass, the more likely it is that a reviewer will miss things...

from my experience of companies that used such an approach versus those that didn't, mandatory review would probably still be a net improvement in code quality, but possibly a reduction in dev quality of life. tradeoffs

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Post Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 16:39

Re: Rewrite Crawl (split from Remove hunger)

Yeah, that is why people who have just graduated from school aren't senior developers.

The conversation goes something like:

Newprogrammer: "this is arranged in an awful way, the composition doesn't make any sense, and things are just plain awkward, we should refactor this heavily or just rewrite it from scratch, that should only take like a month or two"

Mgmt: "great, you have a week to get that done, and while your doing that, be sure you implement these new features"

Newprogrammer: *kills himself trying to refactor and add new features at the same time in a week and does a crappy job implementing and reverts a bunch of things that only got half done, because he's short on time, then quits in frustration because management sucks*

Mgmt: oh that is too bad, i guess its time to hire someone new....

Newprogrammer: "this is arranged in an awful way, the composition doesn't make any sense, and things are just plain awkward....."


Senior programmers know how to say "no" :)
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Post Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 17:43

Re: Rewrite Crawl (split from Remove hunger)

I wrote a longer post about why crawl code could use a few more function descriptions but is otherwise well written and internally documented, enumerated, etc. And how peer review is mainly a waste of time practiced by t crossers in an attempt to make themselves relevant. Instead I'll say two things.

(1) In IT shops for established businesses like medical, banking, telecom you do not see the sort of serious-face shitting on code or the casual snootiness and condescension a lot of you like to practice here. That's reserved for fairylands like academia or startups where nothing has to work at a certain time or make any money and your bosses are magical pixies who ride around on unicorns throwing you gumdrops and telling you what a swell job you are doing. In the real world your boss probably has two goals: Get it Working and Okay, Now Leave it the Fuck Alone. Peer review serves to ameliorate risk; good code comes from having good examples and being mindful in one's work.

(2) Furthermore, businesses don't run on anyone but executives or salesmen being assholes. Bickering within a team is expected. But someone else impugns you or a colleague in clear ignorance, that's the end of the discussion. If any of you practiced the sort of colossally rude behavior you do here to any coder at any job I've worked, you would watch with dread as a huge chain of fuck yous ran up our management chain and back down yours. Simply not acceptable, not even in banks that famous for not giving a figgy shit about their staff. And you treat VOLUNTEERS this way, no less. For shame.

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Post Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 18:58

Re: Rewrite Crawl (split from Remove hunger)

PleasingFungus wrote:are you criticizing a german for misusing english vocabulary


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Post Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 20:19

Re: Rewrite Crawl (split from Remove hunger)

Crawl IRL - your life is hard until 18 y.o. but then it gets very easy and you don't have to do anything.

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Post Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 20:39

Re: Rewrite Crawl (split from Remove hunger)

Am I wrong in saying that this passive aggressive relationship between the dev team and tavern dwellers is largely perpetuated by the devs. I mean dpeg literally told someone to shut up for asking a question. I understand that he/she is frustrated but devs on here don't have high statuses (most don't try to) an people will call them out and respond in a similar fashion. Just to get this clear I have no il thoughts about any dev that contributes to this game (I appreciate your work) but a discussion is a discussion and if you set a precedent then you should expect others to follow.

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Post Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 21:02

Re: Rewrite Crawl (split from Remove hunger)

CypherZel wrote:Dpeg there is really no reason besides time and money that crawl can't be written over, and it should be written over (hopefully in a more suitable language). Maybe another fork will do this as you representing your dev team have stated that you are unwilling
CypherZel wrote:if someone were to rebuild crawl, possible create an engine for it so that you don't have to directly change the source code (I know huuuuge stretch ) so that it's easier for people to create there own concepts or maybe and entire fork would be far more beneficial then this current system, even if it is faster then nethack (I have never played nethack so I'm not actually sure how long their updates are). I would estimate that if someone were to just rewrite it by themselves and no life it it would take maybe a year
CypherZel wrote:Maybe it would take that long, but crawl has been in development for longer hasn't it. I'm not saying it will be easy but it's the best thing to do for the game
CypherZel wrote:It would be the same game, it's code just wouldn't be a shit show
CypherZel wrote:Code standards, there's a reason why code in industry isn't a shit show, because it gets peer reviewed. Shit show, I think that word is about used up now
CypherZel wrote:Am I wrong in saying that this passive aggressive relationship between the dev team and tavern dwellers is largely perpetuated by the devs. I mean dpeg literally told someone to shut up for asking a question. I understand that he/she is frustrated but devs on here don't have high statuses (most don't try to) an people will call them out and respond in a similar fashion. Just to get this clear I have no il thoughts about any dev that contributes to this game (I appreciate your work) but a discussion is a discussion and if you set a precedent then you should expect others to follow.
I don't care about my status on an online forum, and (obviously) I don't care what you think. (Though I do care about what some people think.)

I realise that it may have looked like I jumped at tabstorm out of the blue. Two reasons: I explained the background to him before, and I expect him to know better.

This thread has done a good job of explaining why "rewrite it" is nonsense, distraction and anti-Crawl. I'll keep spitting at posters who casually drop the r-word.

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Post Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 21:05

Re: Rewrite Crawl (split from Remove hunger)

Re writing crawl is good, there's just no apparent feasible way to do it
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Post Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 21:24

Re: Rewrite Crawl (split from Remove hunger)

Thread locked.

edit: which is to say that we can have a conversation about dev/player relationships, or when it's appropriate to "spit at" someone, or any number of things brought up in this thread, but CYC isn't the place to do it. Take your concerns to S&C, preferably with a lot less snark and a lot more assumption of good faith.
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