The Tavern

dpeg wrote:Psieye: I see. A rune for ziggurats is out of the question, but some prize item could be done.

Why not? It might move us closer to "20% deaths without tactical error" which you would like to see as far as I remember.

VAF: That was just typed quickly. More carefully, I should've said: "I'd be surprised if the devteam would be happy with a ziggurat rune." Myself, I actually don't mind, but that's because I only do additional runes selectively (sometimes Slime, sometimes Tomb, almost never Hell/Pan).

As the designer of modern ziggurats I'd veto requiring even all-rune games to clear the vast play shift contained in them. There's too much build bias.

There is literally already an item near-exclusive to the bottom of ziggurats, a happy side-benefit from making it much easier to chain them. Make the figurine of a ziggurat fancier, with an animated tile / ETC console colour and more elevated description, and it'd serve the same spirit. The mulligan figurine in Tombs does make this more awkward, admittedly- possibly the figurines only shine after a certain ziggurat completion number? (I'd say three, to emphasize the scaling in them and let more people get in over the heads in greed). Possibly the number of ziggurats one has completed already could be made visible in some part of the figurine aspects, too, which will also help emphasize that scaling aspect.

claws wrote:As the designer of modern ziggurats I'd veto requiring even all-rune games to clear the vast play shift contained in them. There's too much build bias.

I remember spectating Yermak completing a ziggurat as DE of Trog. Personally I cleared a ziggurat as Na of Chei without any spells used, and that was in version where ziggurats had -cTele on late floors so scroll of blinking resulted in random blink.
Even if we assume that some characters cannot complete ziggurat, why is it bad? All-rune game can (and is expected to, right?) be the hardest accomplishment, I have a few wins with 10-12 runes and IMHO it is fine to see I was unable to get all 15.

claws: Yes, I expected this. We could still have some token that you can bring home, and which says that completed X ziggurats.

Giving out special stuff for completing multiple ziggurats is pretty much rewarding grinding.

Just to be sure: I am thinking of a slot-less piece (like runes and the orb) that could, for example, contain as part of its name the relevant numbers (if only one ziggurat: won / left at what depth; if several ziggurats: won how many). This is purely for bragging rights. I don't see any connection to grinding.

duvessa wrote:Giving out special stuff for completing multiple ziggurats is pretty much rewarding grinding.

How about extra runes that you don't need to win?

dpeg wrote:This is purely for bragging rights.

Indeed. The Korean position is motivated by "I want a metric I can show people to legit brag with". Have this bragging metric influence the Score and they'll be even more happy.

Psieye: Exactly, and that's completely alright: completing ziggurats is something to brag about. The only thing I'm worried about is if having such a trophy forces millions of Asian players to do endless ziggurats. :O

Fun fact: when I devised ziggurats, the end was that they would be endless, and impossible -- you'd die or get out. Unfortunately, I made that assumption without Crawl or Crawl players in mind, and we had to backtrack to something more standard.

dpeg wrote:forces millions of Asian players to do endless ziggurats.

Yes, that is what will happen if implemented naively. Some creativity will be required to achieve a net gain in happiness by adding a metric.

A first attempt at that creativity: only reward The Metric for the first Zig clear (or more precisely, for getting out of the last floor of a Zig after reaching the loot).

Very interesting to see this, thanks for sharing! Funny to see another community saying statue form is good (OP even!). When people try to say that around here they get told statue form is worse than no form at all! It's very interesting to see that different priorities completely change the discussion.

I think it's worth discussing whether the majority of tavern posters really think the only metric worth caring about is win%, or if perhaps some of us have a completely different goal in mind, more similar to what the Korean community is describing.

dowan wrote:Very interesting to see this, thanks for sharing! Funny to see another community saying statue form is good (OP even!). When people try to say that around here they get told statue form is worse than no form at all! It's very interesting to see that different priorities completely change the discussion.

I think it's worth discussing whether the majority of tavern posters really think the only metric worth caring about is win%, or if perhaps some of us have a completely different goal in mind, more similar to what the Korean community is describing.

No surprise here, for most species Statue Form is bad in 3 rune games and ok/good in 15 rune games and Koreans go for 15 runes as far as I understand.

Lots of very well-respected tavern folk say statue form is a net negative at all points of the game, including and especially extended. This is also said of chei!

What this all really goes to show is the well known meta of this game isn't at all the best way to play the game, it's the best way one echo chamber came up with. I think it shows the community would profit from diverging a bit from the enforced meta.

dowan wrote:Lots of very well-respected tavern folk say statue form is a net negative at all points of the game, including and especially extended.

They are correct IMHO. It's better to be in normal form if you are with TSO. And if you are playing optimally, you are a heavy armour melee guy with TSO for most species. I just can't stand TSO, treating its cleansing flame as cheating

This is also said of chei!

They are correct again IMHO, it is a bad god for win rate, being atheist the whole game will give you higher chance to win.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
dowan wrote:Lots of very well-respected tavern folk say statue form is a net negative at all points of the game, including and especially extended.

They are correct IMHO. It's better to be in normal form if you are with TSO. And if you are playing optimally, you are a heavy armour melee guy with TSO for most species. I just can't stand TSO, treating its cleansing flame as cheating

This is also said of chei!

They are correct again IMHO, it is a bad god for win rate, being atheist the whole game will give you higher chance to win.

I'm going to bookmark this post, to prove you wrong one day.

BabyRage wrote:I'm going to bookmark this post, to prove you wrong one day.

Impossible. I posted it in a way that cannot be proven true/false

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
BabyRage wrote:I'm going to bookmark this post, to prove you wrong one day.

Impossible. I posted it in a way that cannot be proven true/false

Schrödinger's Felid: neither right nor wrong.

claws wrote:As the designer of modern ziggurats I'd veto requiring even all-rune games to clear the vast play shift contained in them. There's too much build bias.

There is literally already an item near-exclusive to the bottom of ziggurats, a happy side-benefit from making it much easier to chain them. Make the figurine of a ziggurat fancier, with an animated tile / ETC console colour and more elevated description, and it'd serve the same spirit. The mulligan figurine in Tombs does make this more awkward, admittedly- possibly the figurines only shine after a certain ziggurat completion number? (I'd say three, to emphasize the scaling in them and let more people get in over the heads in greed). Possibly the number of ziggurats one has completed already could be made visible in some part of the figurine aspects, too, which will also help emphasize that scaling aspect.

A vastly, vastly easier solution: Rename the tomb figurine "a dusty figurine of a ziggurat". Optionally, name the figurine at the bottom of a zig "a sparkling|shimmering|radiant figurine of a ziggurat". Now you can tell where they came from - and a shiny figurine proves you beat (or at least fled from the final level) a ziggurat.

is the tomb one necessary in the first place?

The Tavern

About the reaction to direction of trunk dev of Koreans user

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Re: About the reaction to direction of trunk dev of Koreans

Re: About the reaction to direction of trunk dev of Koreans

Re: About the reaction to direction of trunk dev of Koreans

Re: About the reaction to direction of trunk dev of Koreans

Re: About the reaction to direction of trunk dev of Koreans

Re: About the reaction to direction of trunk dev of Koreans

Re: About the reaction to direction of trunk dev of Koreans

Re: About the reaction to direction of trunk dev of Koreans

Re: About the reaction to direction of trunk dev of Koreans

Re: About the reaction to direction of trunk dev of Koreans

Re: About the reaction to direction of trunk dev of Koreans

Re: About the reaction to direction of trunk dev of Koreans

Re: About the reaction to direction of trunk dev of Koreans

Re: About the reaction to direction of trunk dev of Koreans

Re: About the reaction to direction of trunk dev of Koreans

Re: About the reaction to direction of trunk dev of Koreans

Re: About the reaction to direction of trunk dev of Koreans