The Tavern

By recent commit, (link: https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9239046d4c2a245d97ba38236bb5e36d3c7b2cd5)

The wall of loots in Slime:5 disappears after killing TRJ.

This is devTeam's comment to justify:
"Especially with non-Jiyva jellies no longer eating items, there's not really
any good reason to require a method of digging to access the Slime loot."

No, no, limitation on access to loot to digging was not really been a serious problem.
For melee fighters, the wall used be precious cover or safeguard in combat against powerful slimes.
Now Slime:5 is really pain in the @ss for melee fighters, especially for formicids.
I seriously doubt that this change in difficulties is intended or not.

DevTeam, please at least consider possible unintended adverse effects before merging your local commits.

I seriously doubt that this change in difficulties is intended or not.

DevTeam, please at least consider possible unintended adverse effects before merging your local commits.

They did consider this, and making slime harder is considered fine.

Torment + immo now considered standard (somebody mentioned item checks?).

Why? A normal race can just tele away - being highly buffed the char should be 100% able to resist few turns even if surrounded by top tier slimes. At worst, he may need to burn a ?blink.

Fo on other hand are going to plan that too beforehand...but Fo is top 1\2 worst race, and usually balance isn't tailored around a specific race so they will likely be just adapt to this new fact.

nago wrote:Fo is top 1\2 worst race

I'd like to think that too, but it's hard because Fo is my best background (2/3 wins)... :)

I'd say Mummies, Nagas and Octopodes are worse.

nago wrote:Why? A normal race can just tele away

Oh, yeah, I was thinking about Fo mostly. But still being attacked by 8 acid blobs after several turns of fighting 2-3 of these including TRJ sounds really dangerous for any character.

It takes a couple turns for them to get around you like that, you know. Turns you can spend using evocables to get allies around you, or simply moving so it takes longer for them to surround you before tele goes off...

Because of lack of tele Fo was better off just buffing up and murdering TRJ on upstairs then retreating with only some jellies around them even before this change, that's how I did slime for the fastest Fo win.

papilio wrote:DevTeam, please at least consider possible unintended adverse effects before merging your local commits.

Never!

Wow, now you're even more incentivized to teleport out after your corrosion resistance didn't work (Obviously if it worked it would be problematic) and camp on the stairs while waiting for XP-less durable summons to come find you. Thrilling.

I don't really see how you could react to that any way other than neutrally tbh, seems like not a large difference if optimal strategy literally doesn't change

papilio wrote:No, no, limitation on access to loot to digging was not really been a serious problem.

Yes, it was.

You now have to be a bit more careful about when and how you kill TRJ. I could see this maybe being a problem for unspoiled formicids, but otherwise I doubt it changes much. (fwiw I suggested simply placing a runed door in each loot room upon killing its majesty.)

Warning: flavour ahead!

and into wrote:Fwiw I suggested simply placing a runed door in each loot room upon killing its majesty.

I like the previous (walls turn translucent) and the current (walls disappear) solution better than runed doors, because it provides visual oomph.

dpeg wrote:because it provides newbie trap

FTFY

Spoiler: show

VeryAngryFelid:

The newbie trap was firmly established when The Royal Jelly got her cool mechanics.

Now clearly the optimal strategy is to banish the royal jelly and fight it in abyss so walls don't suddenly disappear

dpeg wrote:Warning: flavour ahead!

and into wrote:Fwiw I suggested simply placing a runed door in each loot room upon killing its majesty.
I like the previous (walls turn translucent) and the current (walls disappear) solution better than runed doors, because it provides visual oomph.

Translucent + runed door could work too, right? But yes, having the walls disappear entirely is a more dramatic effect.

Why even have the walls at all now that jellies don't eat loot?

Or alternatively make it required to kill unique pan/hell lords to get corresponding rune. Khufu should be Tomb boss in this case.
Current Slime 6 is not consistent with other runes and with zigs too (there are no walls in slimy zig floors as far as I know).

nago wrote:Now clearly the optimal strategy is to banish the royal jelly and fight it in abyss so walls don't suddenly disappear

Good one.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Current Slime 6 is not consistent with other runes and with zigs too (there are no walls in slimy zig floors as far as I know).

Why would this matter?

Arrhythmia wrote:Why would this matter?

Well, I kind of assume that consistency is good from game-design standpoint. I can be wrong of course.

See, one branch end has a visual effect for its loot area. All others don't. Which of those should adapt to whom?

dpeg wrote:See, one branch end has a visual effect for its loot area. All others don't. Which of those should adapt to whom?

Visual effect is much better. Also it does not allow apportation/blinking/teleporting abuse. Change the other 14 runes please.

dpeg wrote:Warning: flavour ahead!

and into wrote:Fwiw I suggested simply placing a runed door in each loot room upon killing its majesty.
I like the previous (walls turn translucent) and the current (walls disappear) solution better than runed doors, because it provides visual oomph.

What if the walls are instead doors, sealed warden-style until TRJ dies - how is that for visual oomph?

All of these would work, but there's already a cool implementation!

dpeg wrote:See, one branch end has a visual effect for its loot area. All others don't. Which of those should adapt to whom?

I'd guess that the one that needs to adapt is the one that has an ever-growing pile of special cases tacked onto it in a desperate and futile attempt to make an always-identical fight in an always-identical layout seem like good design. But that's just me.

IMO each wall tile having a chance to disappear (30-50%) would be the best solution here, but I'm fine with whatever, I torment it often anyway.

The Tavern

Please consider side effects of commits (Slime:5 wall)

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Re: Please consider side effects of commits (Slime:5 wall)