[proclick] new fork, hellcrawl


If it doesn't fit anywhere else, it belongs here. Also, come here if you just need to get hammered.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Thursday, 18th October 2018, 18:47

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

I'm about done with these stupid devastation brands also.

Donald hits you with a +1 long sword of devastation (36)!!!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The blow is devastating (47)!
You die...

Lmao

Spider Stomper

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Post Thursday, 18th October 2018, 20:43

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Devastation is quite odd for a brand. I never use them as a player because they make your weapon way too slow but I fear them greatly when a monster has them and they are a heavy hitter.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Friday, 19th October 2018, 13:29

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Something's wrong with Jiyva.
I just went to 200 piety and she didn't gift me a single mutation.
Really needs a fix as to how and when she implements mutations to be more static.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Friday, 19th October 2018, 13:30

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

severen wrote:Devastation is quite odd for a brand. I never use them as a player because they make your weapon way too slow but I fear them greatly when a monster has them and they are a heavy hitter.


I mean devastation is pretty ballin' on SOME builds. Try a Merfolk Skald with a Deva Demon Trident lol

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Friday, 19th October 2018, 21:35

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

amyqute1 wrote:Something's wrong with Jiyva.
I just went to 200 piety and she didn't gift me a single mutation.
Really needs a fix as to how and when she implements mutations to be more static.


What race?

Mines Malingerer

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Post Tuesday, 20th November 2018, 16:51

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Rast wrote:
amyqute1 wrote:Something's wrong with Jiyva.
I just went to 200 piety and she didn't gift me a single mutation.
Really needs a fix as to how and when she implements mutations to be more static.


What race?


Not anything mutation immune

Mines Malingerer

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Post Tuesday, 20th November 2018, 16:53

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Also something to be said about Torpor Knight + Statue Form. Far too strong and crowds up the entire top 20 with a couple exceptions. Been trying it and can get all Pan runes and enter Zot by XL22 lol

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Post Wednesday, 21st November 2018, 06:04

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

amyqute1 wrote:Also something to be said about Torpor Knight + Statue Form. Far too strong and crowds up the entire top 20 with a couple exceptions. Been trying it and can get all Pan runes and enter Zot by XL22 lol



Mmmmm I am not convinced Torpor Knight is better than some other strong gods. However Chei is definitely better than trunk since Int does more and starting with your god early is nice. However I have 9 runed the game a number of versions ago with a Op using dragon form of Sif and haste and its quite strong. I would say its stronger than TK + statue form. Although to get a high score you are going to leave a decent amount of XP on the table as you dive floors and getting both DF and haste online may not be that viable for non DE. TK might be one of the best happy mediums for diving levels as early as possible for the best score. Although I think there are a few other combos that can work.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Sunday, 2nd December 2018, 04:18

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

TK right now is so overpowered and imbalanced there's absolutely no reason to pick anything else and try to be competitive on the scoreboards with it lol. Nothing comes close. Yes Dragon Form is probably also strong as TK, all forms are. I just finished a TeTK game and had enough to sustain Statue Form, Animate Dead, Death Channel, Regen, Spectral Weapon, Infestation, Song of Slaying, Deflect Missiles, and still cast Tornado without having to wear Rings of Wizardry by the first floor of Pan. Yep, that's not broken.

Mind you this is outright skipping floors, and always automatically taking Mutagenic Shafts, and around XL20. Just dumb. Lmao

Mines Malingerer

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Post Sunday, 2nd December 2018, 04:21

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

There absolutely needs to be the added factor of actually finding the shrine and having the tempt of other gods along the way. The high scores just looks retarded right now. Lol

bel

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Post Monday, 3rd December 2018, 03:25

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Score doesn't mean anything in particular. Especially Crawl's current score function, which is rather weird and nonsensical. The runes^2 term is particularly weird.

I haven't played with Torpor Knight much. But I doubt very much that starting with Chei is "better" than starting with Trog, say.
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Monday, 3rd December 2018, 04:24

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Have people interested in hellcrawl high scoring looked at the scores on the Japanese server? I recall some pretty fast runs, though I think they go speedrun mode which imo is not really the right thing for high scoring, too easy.

I think it's true that Chei is the best choice for scoring in hellcrawl, particularly since you can start with chei. Trog is fairly bad in hellcrawl ime because the piety decay is so fast. Makhleb might be a reasonable alternative, oka is also quite solid.

I really wish people would get into hellcrawl realtime speedrunning. There's a lot of potential there. It's probably winnable in under 10 minutes. The possibility of doing a no-rune game adds a lot of strategic depth that isn't there in dcss realtime, I think. Lots of interesting route possibilities.
This is where mechanical excellence and one-thousand four-hundred horsepower pays off.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Tuesday, 4th December 2018, 08:01

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

bel wrote:Also something to be said about Torpor Knight + Statue Form. Far too strong and crowds up the entire top 20 with a couple exceptions. Been trying it and can get all Pan runes and enter Zot by XL22 lol

Chei isnt stronger than other strong gods. Yes he is a bit stronger but also other goods are (Oka Pasive Heroism, Makhleb Damnation, Dethimenaios Athenae + Sinv although Sinv barely matters, buffed Quazal SH)

Topor Knight is so strong because from turn 1:
a) God with 35 piety and bend time available
b) plate mail - pondeurs is insignigicant for Chei worshipers

Topor Kinght is even stronger on strong race so hellcrawl VsTK is MiBe of normal crawl

Statue Form of Chei - on Octopus all day long, on Vinestalker very, very rarely. It competes with other spells - Darkness/Invisibility, Necromutation So its quite balanced.

bel wrote:Score doesn't mean anything in particular. Especially Crawl's current score function, which is rather weird and nonsensical. The runes^2 term is particularly weird.

Score equals to turncount speedrun in all rune game.

bel wrote:I haven't played with Torpor Knight much. But I doubt very much that starting with Chei is "better" than starting with Trog, say.

As above, TK get's plate mail and Trog falls a bit in late game.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Tuesday, 4th December 2018, 17:13

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

tealizard wrote:Have people interested in hellcrawl high scoring looked at the scores on the Japanese server? I recall some pretty fast runs, though I think they go speedrun mode which imo is not really the right thing for high scoring, too easy.

I think it's true that Chei is the best choice for scoring in hellcrawl, particularly since you can start with chei. Trog is fairly bad in hellcrawl ime because the piety decay is so fast. Makhleb might be a reasonable alternative, oka is also quite solid.

I really wish people would get into hellcrawl realtime speedrunning. There's a lot of potential there. It's probably winnable in under 10 minutes. The possibility of doing a no-rune game adds a lot of strategic depth that isn't there in dcss realtime, I think. Lots of interesting route possibilities.


10 minutes seems doable, Nearly all of my 9 runes are 50-70 minutes without really aiming for that, cut to the chase and you can probably edit out well over half of that.

Radzia: You are crazy, I've been trying to catch your VSTK score ever since it was put on there, but I can only come within what seems 3k or so turns. I probably need to memorize the Pan maps to cut out the other turns because i still find myself auto exploring them until the boss pops up. Are the maps static? I should probably screenshot the explored maps as a reference if so to try and fix that.

Oka is solid. On the high scores I am Moonbeam and Moonstruck and one of the only Not-TK scores is an Oka run. You'd have to get pretty lucky early on to do a no-resting completion to keep your turns down if you are eyeballing your spots on the high scores lists though.

Also, is it just me, or is focusing Bows/Crossbows simply unviable for hellcrawl except as a spare weapon? I've even gone Dith/Damnation and it's just a crapshow every time.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Tuesday, 4th December 2018, 17:17

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Also, I have an old DsBe completion using Mace of Variability. Something like this is quite strong. I pretty much sucked but with the boost it has all the Pan lords stunlocked within a couple hits. Same could probably be said about Oka/Variability but you also have the chance with DsBe to Hurl Damnation, which kinda negates the spellcasting block. It's enough to take care of any nasties that might pop up that you have to take care of along the way.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Tuesday, 4th December 2018, 17:27

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

severen wrote:Devastation is quite odd for a brand. I never use them as a player because they make your weapon way too slow but I fear them greatly when a monster has them and they are a heavy hitter.


I retract my previous sentiments about Devastation. My highest score is using Devastation brand now for almost the entire game.
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Wednesday, 5th December 2018, 02:19

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

I find my pure ranged characters often hit a wall at V:$. Not having that !augmentation bonus makes the initial rush a lot rougher. Have you tried that penetration spell though? Having a good ranged option definitely adds a lot to hellcrawl melee guys, particularly with song of slaying.

I would like to try realtime speedrunning myself, but I don't have a reliable connection to any hellcrawl servers. Now that there's an EU hellcrawl server though, should be a lot more accessible to the global realtime crowd.
This is where mechanical excellence and one-thousand four-hundred horsepower pays off.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Wednesday, 5th December 2018, 14:44

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

tealizard wrote:I find my pure ranged characters often hit a wall at V:$. Not having that !augmentation bonus makes the initial rush a lot rougher. Have you tried that penetration spell though? Having a good ranged option definitely adds a lot to hellcrawl melee guys, particularly with song of slaying.

I would like to try realtime speedrunning myself, but I don't have a reliable connection to any hellcrawl servers. Now that there's an EU hellcrawl server though, should be a lot more accessible to the global realtime crowd.


Sounds like you really like this fork, I do too. Yes, Vaults 3 seems to be about the cap for any pure ranged character, either Piercing or Portal Projectile be damned. I've gotten through it once or twice, but Pandemonium seems a near impossibility unless you are simply blinking around to grab the runes and leaving, which I suppose is an option, but then the Orb Run shortly after would seem even more problematic. I'm sure Severenx could manage, so *Shrug* :p

Lair Larrikin

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Post Saturday, 8th December 2018, 16:42

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Bug report for Green Draconian,

Green Draconians gain aptitude in poison magic, but there is no poison school. They should get a usable aptitude.

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Post Saturday, 8th December 2018, 21:21

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

ryzol wrote:Bug report for Green Draconian,

Green Draconians gain aptitude in poison magic, but there is no poison school. They should get a usable aptitude.
This bug report also functions as an excellent vanilla DCSS shitpost

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Post Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 03:38

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

amyqute1 wrote:TK right now is so overpowered and imbalanced there's absolutely no reason to pick anything else and try to be competitive on the scoreboards with it lol. Nothing comes close. Yes Dragon Form is probably also strong as TK, all forms are. I just finished a TeTK game and had enough to sustain Statue Form, Animate Dead, Death Channel, Regen, Spectral Weapon, Infestation, Song of Slaying, Deflect Missiles, and still cast Tornado without having to wear Rings of Wizardry by the first floor of Pan. Yep, that's not broken.

Mind you this is outright skipping floors, and always automatically taking Mutagenic Shafts, and around XL20. Just dumb. Lmao



I haven't actually tried all those at once, but yeah the extra Int really gives you a serious edge in MP and running many things at once and functions as roughly similar to wizardry or +skills from other gods. That seems like a lot of casting skills that would need to be pretty high (much higher necro and air than I do and higher summoning), I assume your fighting, weapon skills, and defense skills are lower than I usually do, I tend to leverage the other chei stats equally. I usually run a form, deflect, regen, song. But all in all yeah that seems possible with help in aptitudes. I dunno about getting Tornado castable too often by first Pan without real Apt help. However I am pretty sure you can do that with Sif as well, it works differently since Sif's regen lets you operate at very low MP. I am not sure that mutagenic rifts are a good idea if you run constant forms though, many good ones are suppressed so you tend to select for bad ones more.

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Post Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 05:33

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

radzia wrote:
bel wrote:Also something to be said about Torpor Knight + Statue Form. Far too strong and crowds up the entire top 20 with a couple exceptions. Been trying it and can get all Pan runes and enter Zot by XL22 lol

Chei isnt stronger than other strong gods. Yes he is a bit stronger but also other goods are (Oka Pasive Heroism, Makhleb Damnation, Dethimenaios Athenae + Sinv although Sinv barely matters, buffed Quazal SH)

Topor Knight is so strong because from turn 1:
a) God with 35 piety and bend time available
b) plate mail - pondeurs is insignigicant for Chei worshipers

Topor Kinght is even stronger on strong race so hellcrawl VsTK is MiBe of normal crawl

Statue Form of Chei - on Octopus all day long, on Vinestalker very, very rarely. It competes with other spells - Darkness/Invisibility, Necromutation So its quite balanced.

bel wrote:Score doesn't mean anything in particular. Especially Crawl's current score function, which is rather weird and nonsensical. The runes^2 term is particularly weird.

Score equals to turncount speedrun in all rune game.

bel wrote:I haven't played with Torpor Knight much. But I doubt very much that starting with Chei is "better" than starting with Trog, say.

As above, TK get's plate mail and Trog falls a bit in late game.


I see you beat that high score I had on Berotato. Was that about 17.5k -17k turns? After I hit that 18.5k run I felt like 1k less was possible with really good luck and/or super strong start that let's you dive even earlier (I think I dove lair branch on that run) but I never bothered seriously trying for it. I doubt my OpTk statue/dragon former is the optimal setup for diving, I was just doing it for the heck of it without any special stuff like death channel or darkness etc and probably did unnecessary killing.

Yeah I agree with your chei assessment, I think Chei may have some advantage on turn count as well even if its just regen or whatever. Trog is actually not a great god in hellcrawl, although its Ok. And yeah high score is basically just getting all runes with lowest turn count and turn count has a rather large effect. Sinv used to be really important in Hellcrawl, but with the invis monster nerf/changes I barely care anymore.

I also find Royal Jelly much easier on TK/Chei since you can just hit Jelly a few times, blink away, immo and slouch to basically clear it fairly relialbly and cleanly. Not that other things can't do similar (like Qaz) but its nice to have a simple strat of just saving a few scrolls when you are trying to dive so aggressively.

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Post Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 05:42

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

tealizard wrote:Have people interested in hellcrawl high scoring looked at the scores on the Japanese server? I recall some pretty fast runs, though I think they go speedrun mode which imo is not really the right thing for high scoring, too easy.

I think it's true that Chei is the best choice for scoring in hellcrawl, particularly since you can start with chei. Trog is fairly bad in hellcrawl ime because the piety decay is so fast. Makhleb might be a reasonable alternative, oka is also quite solid.

I really wish people would get into hellcrawl realtime speedrunning. There's a lot of potential there. It's probably winnable in under 10 minutes. The possibility of doing a no-rune game adds a lot of strategic depth that isn't there in dcss realtime, I think. Lots of interesting route possibilities.


I'm not real sure, my high score sat on Berotato for months until Radzia beat it and the high score before that was a speedrun mode that sat for a number of months too. I didn't even think I could beat it until I had a rather low turn count run and got a lot more points then I was expecting. Then I figured I would just dive as fast as possible and after a few tries cut my run down by like 4k turns and got a score like 50% higher than those old speedrun high scores.

The problem itself is actually kind of interesting, but there is a lot of luck. You need a build that is strong enough to dive as early as possible while also able to kill cerebov and possibly antaeus as well and various tools like getting a lot of magic mapping scrolls can be very key. Good stair spawning etc. Also luck in where you spawn into in Pan can save a lot of time. Its really tight on a number of levels.

Personally I play really slow so real time speed running isn't something I am gonna be doing. But even the high score stuff is pretty under developed unless radzia has it all figured out. I mostly just felt like I could shave a lot of turns off so I tried it, but no way was I optimal.
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 06:17

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

http://lazy-life.ddo.jp:8080/morgue-hel ... 190718.txt

That's the top score on lld, about 14.8k. A Chei character, unsurprisingly. In my opinion, you get too much experience in a speedrun mode game for it to be scored the same as a normal run, but I don't make the rules.
This is where mechanical excellence and one-thousand four-hundred horsepower pays off.
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Friday, 14th December 2018, 12:04

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Also, I generally play very slowly and I haven't tried a fast realtime run in a long time (again, because my connection is dog shit), but I have played hellcrawl deliberately fast in realtime and it was extremely good. That was over a year ago and my time wasn't all that fast (something like an 82 minutes lol) but as Ferris Bueller said "if you have the means, I highly recommend it."
This is where mechanical excellence and one-thousand four-hundred horsepower pays off.

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Post Sunday, 16th December 2018, 03:43

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Hello, today I tried hellcrawl for the first time. I liked it a lot, to be fair, I had a blast playing it. Not sure though, if it is because of hellcrawl being better than normal dcss or because of the new experience.
Now to details/bugs:
  • Hellcrawl has big problem with manual and descriptions:
    • there are no new races in game manual;
    • I wasted a minute after reading Sandblast description "Consumes eight stones..." trying to find stones ("Hmm, there are no stones in my inventory, were they goldified? If that's so, where would they belong now?");
    • I tried titans using big clubs and ?/i told Me there are such things as giant spiked clubs, so I ended up waiting for one forever. Was I unlucky or were gsc actually removed but they're still mentioned in "lookup description"?
    • description of Blades skill forgot to lose the word 'Short' in one instance.
  • Shopping is bugged: purchased items don't disappear from shop until you reenter it.
  • Entering PoG with '>' on a rune floor requires 'yes' for confirmation.
  • I learnt in a very funny way that flaming brand was reworked: I found new flaming Blade and decided to compare if it deals more damage with stabbing than my current dagger, so I sneaky passwalled at that dangerous group of skeletal warriors, stabbed the first one and waked up the rest with big damn fiery explosion! Later on with another character I decided to rebrand my vampiric Blade for extended. Guess what? I got flaming. And yeah, the character was a stabber again. Imo this is not a brand that belongs to Blades. I think it would be reasonable not to generate Blades with it.
  • I think I like most if not all the changes that were made. With one big exception: net removal. Stabbers need them.
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Post Sunday, 16th December 2018, 14:45

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Ok, my second day of hellcrawl:
  Code:
    713916192 Yermak the Ruffian (level 27, 193/245 (249) HPs) *SPEED*
             Began as a Gnoll Torpor Knight on Dec 16, 2018.
             Was the Champion of Cheibriados.
             Escaped with the Orb
             ... and 9 runes!

             The game lasted 03:03:13 (9664 turns).

There was also a death in Zot:5 with another character at 9k mark, it would be a slightly better run.

Is it possible to get a link to CBO hellcrawl morgue? LLD has clear way to view hellcrawl scoring along with morgue links.

Edit: it turns out that hellcrawl morgues are in the same directory as the usual ones, thanks to advil for this insight.
http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 140530.txt
Last edited by Yermak on Monday, 17th December 2018, 15:32, edited 3 times in total.
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Monday, 17th December 2018, 00:07

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

I don't know a way to get cbro morgues other than going straight to the morgue directory. It's a pain in the ass. LLD is so good.

Looks like you've set a new standard for hellcrawl speedrunning lol
This is where mechanical excellence and one-thousand four-hundred horsepower pays off.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Thursday, 27th December 2018, 19:07

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

I wondered what would happened if one of tier 1 speedruners played hellcrawl

Yermak wrote:Ok, my second day of hellcrawl: The game lasted 03:03:13 (9664 turns).



Congratz Yermak, thats impresive

It's funny that 12 result on berotato is still my TrSk of Chei played long long ago which I autoexploread all levels beside hells

Mines Malingerer

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Post Friday, 28th December 2018, 06:11

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Hey hellmonk would you be willing to rename Recall Ancestor to Ancestral Recall, possibly with associated meme flavor text? It would be funny I think.

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Post Friday, 22nd February 2019, 03:58

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

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Temple Termagant

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Post Tuesday, 26th February 2019, 07:57

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

High scores for hellcrawl on CKO can be found here: https://crawl.kelbi.org/morgue-test/highscores.html

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Mines Malingerer

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Post Tuesday, 26th February 2019, 18:05

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Wrong link? Those are not Hellcrawl scores. I think I have the top score there
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Post Wednesday, 27th February 2019, 07:22

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

amyqute1 wrote:Wrong link? Those are not Hellcrawl scores. I think I have the top score there


You have to click on "hellcrawl" at the top. it looks like Moonbeam has the only two wins on the server, is that you?

Mines Malingerer

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Post Wednesday, 27th February 2019, 14:55

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

I totally didn't see the top panel. My bad! Yes that's me
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