[proclick] new fork, hellcrawl


If it doesn't fit anywhere else, it belongs here. Also, come here if you just need to get hammered.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6311

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Saturday, 15th April 2017, 19:00

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

mibert wrote:
severen wrote:Completely removing the ability to back up has an unfun consequence if you are going fast and miss a piece of equipment you can't go back and get it. I missed a nice +6 piece of plate on D14 and didn't realize it until Orc1 and that really sucked. I could have easily gone back and got it otherwise and I would have basically had to keep just double checking all equipment drops to not have missed it which isn't that fun and slows things down.

Maybe give a limited ability to grab an item from a previous floor.


What i have to do (hint: tedious) is ctrl-F for relevant stuff before >
This becomes somewhat messier given that items from previous floor are also shown, even though they're lost forever

Control-f .

Shows everything on the current level.
Spoiler: show
This high quality signature has been hidden for your protection. To unlock it's secret, send 3 easy payments of $9.99 to me, by way of your nearest theta band or ley line. Complete your transmission by midnight tonight for a special free gift!

For this message the author Siegurt has received thanks: 3
bel, mibert, shping

Spider Stomper

Posts: 241

Joined: Saturday, 29th October 2016, 17:41

Post Saturday, 22nd April 2017, 22:23

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Am I missing something? Were cure mutation potions removed, because I have not found any at all in multiple games. Fighting OOFs in Zot is just plain stupid at this point I have tons of mutations that are seriously bad no way to prevent or cure them. Its not good.

bel

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2148

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05

Post Saturday, 22nd April 2017, 23:14

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Potions of mutation, cure mutation and beneficial mutation were combined.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 241

Joined: Saturday, 29th October 2016, 17:41

Post Saturday, 22nd April 2017, 23:42

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

I escaped with the orb on berotato as an OpFi and it gave me a score of 0 and #154. Not sure if anyone else has won on berotato.
Last edited by severen on Saturday, 22nd April 2017, 23:45, edited 1 time in total.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 241

Joined: Saturday, 29th October 2016, 17:41

Post Saturday, 22nd April 2017, 23:43

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

bel wrote:Potions of mutation, cure mutation and beneficial mutation were combined.


Combined into just plain mutation? Because that is the only one I saw. Well I won the game with 4 permanent mutations. Teleportitis actually saved my life.

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 642

Joined: Saturday, 12th December 2015, 23:54

Post Sunday, 23rd April 2017, 00:56

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

The mut pots are all combined into !mut (same as regular crawl). Scoring for wins was bugged in a really hilarious way but I am pushing a fix for that, so you should be able to score points again soon.
Remove spell hunger.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 241

Joined: Saturday, 29th October 2016, 17:41

Post Sunday, 23rd April 2017, 01:55

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Hellmonk wrote:The mut pots are all combined into !mut (same as regular crawl). Scoring for wins was bugged in a really hilarious way but I am pushing a fix for that, so you should be able to score points again soon.


So they deleted cure mutation and beneficial mutation and are using the word "merge" wrong? Whatever.

Inventory management in this stairless version of hellcrawl is really crappy especially on an Op. I had no where near enough space since I can't have a stash and check ctrl-F before hitting a downstair on every level really tedious.

Being forced to do slime or lose it at the points its available is not something I like either. Especially with these mutation changes. Shining eyes are good for at least a couple mutations and hellcrawl is too tight to reliably do all the stupidly awkward malmutate "counter" tactics. I almost always do slime after Depths or even later and clearing Zot. As it stands now I would basically never do it.

I got banished to the abyss3 in Elf in this win and frankly with the lack of MR and the low levels you are typically running around at almost everyone is going to be banished at least once. If you are going to have it be this way and have Abyss be purely bad and potentially give uncurable mutations then you might as well make Abyss always be level 1. I was banished to level 4 on a promising GhFi and this was just pure shit and not fun. Far too many things banish and getting enough MR to prevent an Ancient Lich from banishing you at a decent rate (like under 20%) will take two MR items which is quite often not going to happen.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8748

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Sunday, 23rd April 2017, 02:06

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

severen wrote:So they deleted cure mutation and beneficial mutation and are using the word "merge" wrong? Whatever.
Quaffing new !mut has almost the same effect as quaffing the 3 old potions one after another (cure mut, then mut, then benemut). The only difference is that it removes 2 to 6 mutations instead of removing 1 to 7.

bel

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2148

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05

Post Sunday, 23rd April 2017, 05:46

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

I'm not sure I would use the word "tedious" for inventory management in hellcrawl. After you drop an item and leave the level, it's simply gone (it still shows up on Ctrl-F, but that's not important).

Inventory management is more important, not more tedious. Before going down, you simply type "ctrl-F .", pick up whatever you want, while dropping the least useful items to make space. Seems simple enough to me.

It might be a good idea to increase inventory size so that one doesn't have to worry about dropping stuff (like in regular crawl). I don't know how hard it would be. I generally find 52 a big enough inventory size for most purposes.

Slime Squisher

Posts: 335

Joined: Thursday, 11th April 2013, 21:07

Post Sunday, 23rd April 2017, 06:59

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Hellmonk wrote:Scoring for wins was bugged in a really hilarious way but I am pushing a fix for that, so you should be able to score points again soon.

Clear bug or fork-topical metacommentary? As the latter, it was worth a good laugh when ascending. Leave it and call it a feature!

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 642

Joined: Saturday, 12th December 2015, 23:54

Post Tuesday, 25th April 2017, 02:02

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

I'm pushing a minor update very soon. There are a couple of gameplay changes and quite a few minor fixes.
  • A lot of monster armour and a few monster weapons have been removed. The ac/damage have been merged into their base stats. More armour will drop from the floor to compensate; will probably need further tweaks to armour generation and/or chance for an ego. Uniques keep their armour and many of them have better chances to come with something good. The goal with this change is to reduce the piles of crap that you have to sift through after every fight; if it works well, I will probably trim some more weapons from common enemies.
  • Orbrun teleport delay is reduced to 2-4 additional turns (was 5-9)
  • No paralysis for hitting statzero. All other penalties of being at stat zero still apply.
  • Ru's stat sacrifices are worth a little more piety.
  • Shops can once more generate in late dungeon.
  • Zin loses the one-time mutation removal and will instead "gift" you mutation removals beginning at *** piety.
  • Passive mapping mutation is a single level instead of 3. Drac/Naga stinger mutation is also a single level. Both are equivalent to level 2 of the old mutation.
  • Kobolds shouldn't get stat mutations anymore.
  • Resistance to negative energy can be obtained as a random mut.
  • The Relec mutation is a tiny bit more common.
  • Demonspawn get all of their mutations by xl 24, since you are almost never hitting xl27 anymore.
  • Monsters shouldn't banish you as deep, max banish depth is level 3. Remove abyss might end up happening eventually but I'm not there yet.
  • Passwall should behave better when there is deep water or lava at your destination.
  • Stash results from previous floors should no longer be listed. I am unsure about this one personally; if anyone liked seeing passed-up items from previous floors, let me know and I can revert this or find another way to make that info accessible.
  • Dowan and Duvessa shouldn't show up alone whining about their dead twin (this could happen if one of them was too close to your entrance to a floor and got cleaned up but the other one wasn't).
  • Fixed a bug where you couldn't score points in a winning game unless you were a speedrun god.
  • The autumn katana description now properly specifies its technique of manufacture.

I also merged the spell breakpoint change and a couple of other minor things from mainline crawl. I made a couple posts talking about condensing weapon schools elsewhere in cyc; I expect to make changes there in the next week or two. There is also an incredibly dank pr courtesy of the yiufcrawl dev for removing the conjurations school and pushing the spells elsewhere (mostly elemental schools); I'd like to tackle that soon as part of a more comprehensive spell overhaul.
Remove spell hunger.

For this message the author Hellmonk has received thanks: 9
all before, bananaken, chequers, Gigaslurp, Implojin, ker, mibert, nago, watertreatmentRL

Spider Stomper

Posts: 205

Joined: Saturday, 20th September 2014, 07:40

Post Sunday, 7th May 2017, 00:27

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Got a 9 rune win with a DEFE blaster, enjoyed it a lot: http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 235518.txt

It felt like a 15 rune game but just under 5 hours which is breakneck speed for me. I barely got firestorm online by the time I got to Vaults so I got to get all the runes.

Some feedback:
  • I think magic mapping should be a little more common; between lack of stairs, elf as timed portal and Zot + Orb run there's a lot more levels than usual where I felt like I needed it (but spamming level 9 spells solves a lot of problems).
  • No food, specially with mages is fantastic, not because I was noticeably more powerful, but lack of spell hunger means a lot less time wasted eating food.
  • Ctrl-G should at least work for the last destination you chose within the level
  • Book library gets a little messy by the end; not sure how hard this would be to implement but Shift-M into some option to search for a spell would save a ton of time, though if you remember the spell level it's not too bad

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 642

Joined: Saturday, 12th December 2015, 23:54

Post Sunday, 7th May 2017, 02:41

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

bananaken wrote:Got a 9 rune win with a DEFE blaster, enjoyed it a lot: http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 235518.txt

It felt like a 15 rune game but just under 5 hours which is breakneck speed for me. I barely got firestorm online by the time I got to Vaults so I got to get all the runes.

Some feedback:
  • I think magic mapping should be a little more common; between lack of stairs, elf as timed portal and Zot + Orb run there's a lot more levels than usual where I felt like I needed it (but spamming level 9 spells solves a lot of problems).
  • No food, specially with mages is fantastic, not because I was noticeably more powerful, but lack of spell hunger means a lot less time wasted eating food.
  • Ctrl-G should at least work for the last destination you chose within the level
  • Book library gets a little messy by the end; not sure how hard this would be to implement but Shift-M into some option to search for a spell would save a ton of time, though if you remember the spell level it's not too bad

I'd like to keep magic mapping somewhat limited for precisely that reason; when there are more floors where you really want to use it then you sometimes have to make a tough decision rather than just reading it every time. That said, scroll generation will probably end up changing again in the future. I should really run objstat to see how many of each scroll are being generated on average so I can tweak them a little better.
Glad to hear that you enjoyed no food. I think that might be the most popular hellcrawl unfeature.
I need to clean up Ctrl-G. It functions like that *some* of the time but usually doesn't. Will try to work on that in the next couple weeks while I'm playing dieselrobin and not committing to any major projects.
I believe that Doesnty is working on some sorting options for the spell library so I will merge that whenever it's ready.

Also, the promised weapon consolidation update will hit the servers very soon but I need a separate post to describe all of that.
Remove spell hunger.

For this message the author Hellmonk has received thanks: 2
bananaken, nago

bel

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2148

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05

Post Sunday, 7th May 2017, 02:58

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Since there are no curses, Obsidian Axe can be freely wielded and unwielded with no penalty. Perhaps give it *Drain or something.

For this message the author bel has received thanks:
Hellmonk

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 642

Joined: Saturday, 12th December 2015, 23:54

Post Sunday, 7th May 2017, 03:44

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Here's an incredibly dank new update post. You will soon be able to play a hellcrawl with four, count 'em, four less skills in it.

  • Staves are merged into Maces & Flails (renamed Maces & Staves)
    • Removed weapon types: Club, Lajatang, Dire Flail, Eveningstar, Giant Spiked Club.
    • Lajatang of Order is still described as a lajatang, but is actually a +12 quarterstaff.
    • Quarterstaves are now 12 base damage instead of 10 and are somewhat less common. It's basically taking over the dire flail role (1 less base damage than dire flail, not as uncommon).
    • Morningstars are now 14 base damage instead of 13 and are somewhat less common. It's halfway between old morningstar damage and eveningstar damage.
    • You can't start with a quarterstaff. Rest in pizza, formicid fighter.
    • Some weaker enemies no longer get to carry morningstars/quarterstaves.
    • Deep elves get -1 in Maces & Staves instead of -3. All other species keep their old Maces aptitude.
  • Longblades are merged into Shortblades (renamed Blades). As a result, riposte no longer exists except on the fencer's gloves unrand. All blades stab effectively.
    • Removed weapon types: Short Sword, Falchion, Greatsword.
    • Rapiers get a Falchion-esque statline. Really it's rapiers that got removed, but rapier is a much cooler sword than falchion so I kept the name.
    • Double swords have 1.6 base delay instead of 1.5 but are more common. They fill in for greatswords while remaining one-handed.
    • Triple swords are 18 base damage instead of 17.
    • Blades do not have a special mindelay rule.
    • Adjusted blade apts for Ko (+3), Mi (+2), and Og (-3). All other species keep their old shortblade apt.
  • Slings are removed. Monsters that would get them get other ranged weapons instead, mostly shortbows. Punk becomes a +8 hand crossbow.
  • The conjurations school is removed.
    • The conjurer background is removed.
    • Staves of conjuration are removed.
    • Magic Dart is an air spell, is slightly (read: one extra side to the die) more powerful.
    • Searing Ray is a fire spell, deals partially irresistible damage as per bolt of magma.
    • Dazzling Spray is a fire/hexes spell and deals fire damage, but can still dazzle fire immune targets. I need to fix autotargeting for this spell but I haven't figured it out yet. Try not to cast it at immune stuff.
    • Force Lance is an earth/transolcations spell and is dropped a level to level 3.
    • Orb of Destruction is an earth spell. New flavor: gigantic homing rock.
    • Fulminant Prism is a pure air (no hexes school) spell and is bumped up a level to level 5. The prism explodes into electrical damage that checks half ac instead of full, and is completely immune to electricity instead of just being resistant.
    • Conjure Ball Lightning is level 7 instead of level 6.
    • Mephitic Cloud is level 4 since it's dual school instead of triple school now.
    • The following spells have lost a few points of damage: sticky flame (from the dot), fireball, bolt of fire, bolt of draining, throw icicle, iron shot. These are not significant nerfs and the scaling with spellpower is unchanged. Will probably adjust these and some other conjurations more seriously in the future once I get a better idea of how the balance looks now that they're all single school.
    • The following spells are no longer castable by players: Shock, Throw Flame, Stone Arrow, Bolt of Magma, Lightning Bolt, Bolt of Cold, Lehudib's Crystal Spear.
    • Every conjuration spell that isn't listed above is unchanged other than losing the conjuration school.
  • The wizard starting book has been reworked and contains: magic dart, blink, slow, passwall, sublimation of blood, conjure flame, call canine familiar.
  • The air elementalist starting book has been reworked and contains: magic dart, repel missiles, swiftness, static discharge, mephitic cloud, fulminant prism.
  • The fire elementalist starting book contains searing ray in place of throw flame.
  • The earth elementalist starting book contains force lance in place of stone arrow.
  • Olgreb's Toxic Radiance is level 5 instead of 4.
  • Silence is dropped a level to level 4.
  • Airstrike's damage formula is 7 + random2((power + 6) /6) instead of whatever ridiculous mess was going on before.
  • Monsters that wake up from hibernation can be hibernated again much sooner. You can't quite chain sleep them though. This should cut down on kiting with enchanter starts.
  • Made some minor adjustments to a few species' spellcasting apts.
  • Removed scythes, except the scythe of curses. Sigmund and reapers get improved base damage and AF_REACH.
  • Eels don't generate quite as early.
  • Monster airstrike no longer deals additional damage to flying players.
  • There's a brand new hex enhancer goodmut. I made this just for fun, it might get removed or relegated to a species in the future.
  • Berserkitis is gone from the random mutation pool.
  • Fixed a lot of DEAD MONSTER messages when casting shatter.

The long term goal with spell changes is to give each school a more unique identity. Conjurations was the first victim because its identity (does nonelemental damage) was already covered by earth. Its other gameplay function was to be a big experience sink for characters that want to do damage with magic, but I would rather just adjust spell damage/level/etc numbers until spells are balanced than have a tacked on secondary school make them cost more exp. Long-term it would be good to trim some more damage spells and/or make the existing ones more distinct, but that is a big project and it will need to wait. I am participating in the dieselrobin tournament and I believe the 0.20 tournament is coming up shortly as well, so I will probably not push anything besides bugfixes and balance adjustments for a little while. After that, I plan to finally get started on implementing permacharms in one form or another.
Remove spell hunger.

For this message the author Hellmonk has received thanks: 11
all before, bel, chequers, Implojin, ker, Lasty, nago, NhorianScum, Shard1697, shping and one more user

Halls Hopper

Posts: 60

Joined: Tuesday, 24th January 2017, 21:44

Post Sunday, 7th May 2017, 05:23

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Players who play offline: please download the latest, dankest Hellcrawl Number Nine from the usual place.

https://github.com/Hellmonk/hellcrawl/releases
Yiufcrawl, a dcss fork with extra species
Pu, LO, HE, SE, "MD", Im, ST, BK, viewtopic.php?f=17&t=23209

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 443

Joined: Thursday, 16th February 2017, 15:23

Post Sunday, 7th May 2017, 20:00

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Have you removed summon imp? Now that crimson imp summons are good as hell, it doesn't really work as a level 2 spell.

Solid update, by the way.
*Lana Del Rey voice* , video games...

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 771

Joined: Tuesday, 25th November 2014, 02:47

Post Monday, 8th May 2017, 19:45

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

I've finally started on the hellcrawl, and well done +1 very happy person here.

Thank you!!!

Spider Stomper

Posts: 205

Joined: Saturday, 20th September 2014, 07:40

Post Tuesday, 9th May 2017, 00:22

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

I ascended (descended?) a melee character this time, got 8 out of 9 runes, missing only the last one because things got a little too dank on Tartarus:7 http://gnollcrawl.tk/hellcrawl/bananake ... 201924.txt (I had insane equipment though)

Melee characters definitely feel harder than blasters, not that it's a bad thing. Got lucky with magic mapping and was able to map the entire orb run.. but on the other hand found only 1 mutation potion the entire game.

Some more impressions:

For Zot in particular I think some enemies could have slightly more weaknesses; it's fine if everything is dangerous but their defenses make it so that in the absence of having a mega-diesel melee or blaster you just run away. In a way this was pretty fun because I never prioritized running from things that much in Zot before, but I also feel this will make spells like haste/controlled blink super top tier while hexes just fall off sharply late game (you can just keep a wand or two for things with average MR like plutonium crabs and doom hounds). Similarly almost everything you'd want to hide from has sInv in Zot.

The amount of XP available to you actually feels appropriate; if you go for a 9-rune you get a shot at being level 27 but you can certainly ascend doing only the bare minimum amount of branches

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4402

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Wednesday, 10th May 2017, 06:11

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

What's the difference between normal and casual modes? Sorry, I couldn't find the answer in this thread.

Removing Conjurations made some combos much more powerful than before (MfIE has -2 aptitude in Conjurations and +1 in Ice, I sacrificed wizardry to Ru and still had Throw Icicle at 7.5% despite having only 8.5 Ice Magic), probably removing staircases AND Lair requires some adjustments in unique placement. Frances killed me with 50 damage shard of ice on D:13 when I had 94 max HP (Frances was slowed by Apocalypse but then hasted itself and killed me anyway).
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

Slime Squisher

Posts: 335

Joined: Thursday, 11th April 2013, 21:07

Post Wednesday, 10th May 2017, 06:36

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

VeryAngryFelid wrote:What's the difference between normal and casual modes? Sorry, I couldn't find the answer in this thread.

viewtopic.php?p=309533#p309533
https://github.com/Hellmonk/hellcrawl/p ... 05a0ac5b04
  Code:
+    //for difficulty levels other than normal,
+    //multiply both exp gain and skill exp (but don't multiply xp-gated effects)
+    if (crawl_state.difficulty == DIFFICULTY_CASUAL)
+    {
+       exp_gained *= 2;
+        skill_xp *= 2;
+   }

edit: I should also mention the scoring reduction from hiscores.cc:
  Code:
      if (crawl_state.difficulty == DIFFICULTY_CASUAL)
            pt = pt / 100;
      
        points = pt;

For this message the author Implojin has received thanks:
VeryAngryFelid

bel

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2148

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05

Post Wednesday, 10th May 2017, 06:50

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

You can use the "search" function to find it:
Hellmonk wrote:Casual difficulty: an easier difficulty setting. You get double experience, 1/1000th as much score, and the constant reminder that you're a casual. I will tweak the exp value and probably increase some aspects of item generation for this difficulty in the future.

I guess the 1000 is now 100.

For this message the author bel has received thanks:
VeryAngryFelid

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 443

Joined: Thursday, 16th February 2017, 15:23

Post Friday, 12th May 2017, 16:18

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

The "CASUAL" mode is definitely worth a look for those who haven't checked it out. There's enough experience in the game to do a run with no side branches and no runes. The pace and difficulty curve are both excellent with this conduct.
*Lana Del Rey voice* , video games...

For this message the author watertreatmentRL has received thanks:
n1000

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 853

Joined: Thursday, 29th August 2013, 18:39

Post Wednesday, 24th May 2017, 17:42

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

This fork rules, thank you for doing all the things I want crawl to do.

Feature Request: Djinni

Lair Larrikin

Posts: 26

Joined: Thursday, 5th May 2011, 22:24

Post Saturday, 10th June 2017, 01:10

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Remove tengu, replace with something else. Tengu are less interesting versions of gargoyles, without much to distinguish them. Alternately change them around: Never stop flying (time penalty to picking up objects?), poorly fitting armor, fragile, bonuses to movement speed and evasion as they level. Make them have good aptitude at Summoning (because no other race has good summoning apts).

bel

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2148

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05

Post Saturday, 10th June 2017, 02:27

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Tengu already have +2 Summoning apt.

For this message the author bel has received thanks:
VeryAngryFelid

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 443

Joined: Thursday, 16th February 2017, 15:23

Post Saturday, 10th June 2017, 15:45

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

There's a pretty good argument for merging tengu with deep elf and removing gargoyle, in my opinion. Gargoyle doesn't really represent anything meaningfully distinct from other existing species. Tengu kind of works as a distinct species because of its speed, flying, low hp, and equipment restrictions, with good aptitudes for most things. It lends itself to a variety of gameplay options. Deep elf, by contrast, is pretty one note and gives rise to a lot of trash combos that add nothing to the game (of course, in the long run the best way to eliminate the trash combo situation is to replace the combo system with something better).

The kobold situation doesn't really work for me, but I don't have a strong opinion on it. It feels like trying to spice up the old cyno/gnoll concept, but that concept was never any good. There's a point of comparison with tengu in that you have this evasion bonus for being small, but tengu manages to avoid the weirdness of character size by just giving a straight bonus for flying. To the extent that the character size based bonus is cleaner in that it doesn't involve a status effect or active ability, this could be fixed by just making tengu always have flying. If memory serves airstrike bonus damage on flying players was one of the first things to be removed from hellcrawl, so there's no problem there.

Anyway, I too would like to see some of the chaff removed from the species situation.
*Lana Del Rey voice* , video games...

Spider Stomper

Posts: 232

Joined: Saturday, 2nd July 2016, 13:16

Post Saturday, 10th June 2017, 16:15

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

watertreatmentRL wrote:There's a pretty good argument for merging tengu with deep elf and removing gargoyle, in my opinion.

dream option, will never happen because the devs hate fun*:

1. merge tengu into deep elf
2. to replace tengu aux attacks, deep elf players get to dual wield**

-----
[*] by "hate fun" I mean "would not want to undertake massive coding projects for at best marginal gameplay improvements"
[**] e.g. by getting free attacks a la offhand punches with a short blade equipped in your shield slot
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1752

Joined: Monday, 14th October 2013, 01:05

Post Saturday, 10th June 2017, 17:48

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

ibanix wrote:Remove tengu, replace with something else. Tengu are less interesting versions of gargoyles, without much to distinguish them. Alternately change them around: Never stop flying (time penalty to picking up objects?), poorly fitting armor, fragile, bonuses to movement speed and evasion as they level. Make them have good aptitude at Summoning (because no other race has good summoning apts).
How are tengu less interesting than gargoyles? Gargoyles have a pretty poorly defined niche in that they have a penalty to survivability due to HP, but then a boost to survivability due to AC/resists... Tengu is a better example of a low HP species, albeit still not perfect.

Snake Sneak

Posts: 124

Joined: Wednesday, 15th January 2014, 07:08

Post Tuesday, 20th June 2017, 23:32

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Hellcrawl is a lot of fun. Thank you Hellmonk!

Temple Termagant

Posts: 6

Joined: Sunday, 25th June 2017, 09:26

Post Sunday, 25th June 2017, 09:30

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

I tried out Qazlal to see how well I could do with no stairs. It didn't go well...

bel

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2148

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05

Post Thursday, 29th June 2017, 15:28

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

I don't know if Qazlal is viable in hellcrawl, at least in normal mode. Playing it would probably involve lots of tedious luring. I tried it a few times: it was pretty bad.

Playing MiBe of Trog, it was very hard to reach and maintain 6* (not that 6* is necessary). I was barely even resting, and I never used BiA. Trog is still very strong, so no complaints.

bel

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2148

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05

Post Sunday, 9th July 2017, 03:07

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

The Orb run through Hell is brutal. I died many times even after burning through all my consumables. Got lucky a few times, but otherwise it's very tough. I am wondering if it's worth playing with TSO for the whole game just for the Orb run.

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 443

Joined: Thursday, 16th February 2017, 15:23

Post Sunday, 9th July 2017, 11:28

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

I've done the TSO thing a number of times. It works, but makhleb is as good or better.
*Lana Del Rey voice* , video games...

For this message the author watertreatmentRL has received thanks:
bel

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 268

Joined: Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 09:32

Post Sunday, 9th July 2017, 13:21

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Recent spell/weapon changes are a Very Good Thing that I would like to see in vannila.

Zot could use some more tweaks, it's quite brutal for middling damage dudes. Still way more interactive than permaorb zot so this is by no means a complaint.

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 771

Joined: Tuesday, 25th November 2014, 02:47

Post Wednesday, 12th July 2017, 06:18

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Is Hellcrawl coming back to CBRO?

For this message the author edgefigaro has received thanks:
cerealjynx

bel

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2148

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05

Post Wednesday, 12th July 2017, 15:14

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Removing conjuration school from many high-level (level 8/9) spells has made them relatively easy to learn (this also applies to mid-level spells like fireball, bolt of cold and freezing cloud). There is generally a lot of XP (Vehumet gives Wiz and Sif gives magic boost).

Perhaps elemental magic school aptitudes should be reduced by 1 or 2 (for all races) to make the XP curve roughly the same as before. I don't know which curve is "better": before or after.

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 443

Joined: Thursday, 16th February 2017, 15:23

Post Wednesday, 12th July 2017, 22:36

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

I don't really agree that the balance on direct damage spells has been significantly disrupted by the removal of the conjurations school, but I don't think it's worth fiddling with if it has been.

From what I understand, permacharms are coming. MP reserve mechanics offer a better model for essentially all crawl spells than the one-cost/cost-per-use model of DCSS. For one thing, the DCSS model is heavy on regeneration and luring. That is a problem that is baked into the cake and can never be fixed given the commitments of current dev consensus, at least as I understand it. Another piece of the problem is the crazy formulas involved in determining fail rates. Fail rate removal is a real possibility with MP reserves.

I've heard people refer to permacharms as somehow like equipment, as though that's a bad thing. Equipment is actually handled reasonably well in terms of interface and usability. Throwing or firing things works pretty well. Hitting things with melee weapons works really well. Once you have an MP reserve mechanic that takes armor into account, as I think is the current model, it makes a hell of a lot of sense to bring the spells formerly known as conjurations into that picture. The picture that most appeals to me is spells that produce a literal item that lives in the inventory, for their duration, equippable as a weapon, subject to the usual swapping and tabbing interface niceties. The potential advantages are considerable. For one thing, you're no longer asked to switch among various possible modes of attack literally every turn, since switching costs time. You no longer need to optimize the expense of killing each individual monster, lure and disengage to manage mp for spells you cast repeatedly in every encounter. Having a lot of different elemental attack flavors has a more straightforward cost, so you can think about whether spell levels make sense as a mechanic. (Hint: they don't.) You also eliminate this business of killing popcorn with zero skill melee. Direct damage spellcasters become as playable as melee characters.

You also hasten the way for corpse removal. Necromancy spell interactions are about the only remaining reason for corpses to exist in hellcrawl. Of course, these could always be given death channel mechanics, but death channel is a pain in the ass with DCSS spell mechanics. With permacharms, eyyy...
*Lana Del Rey voice* , video games...

bel

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2148

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05

Post Thursday, 13th July 2017, 00:18

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

watertreatmentRL wrote:I don't really agree that the balance on direct damage spells has been significantly disrupted by the removal of the conjurations school, but I don't think it's worth fiddling with if it has been.

Is there some argument for this? Spells have already been "fiddled with" when conjuration school was removed; for instance, CBL is now lvl 7 air, instead of lvl 6 conj/air, Fulminant Prism is lvl 5 air instead of lvl 4 conj/hex and so on. What makes the current "fiddling" level ideal?

The rest of the post doesn't have anything to do with what I wrote, but perhaps you were talking about something else.

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 443

Joined: Thursday, 16th February 2017, 15:23

Post Thursday, 13th July 2017, 00:48

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

It's true, you just mentioned an issue that is interesting to me. I don't think the idea of changing all elemental aptitudes to increase the difficulty of getting level 8 and 9 spells has a lot of merit, to be honest with you. I guess it sounds better than introducing a spell level 10, but the latter is probably a better idea.

In any case, new mechanics will make significant reworks of hellcrawl magic possible. I think before very long, this is going to be like discussing changes to the number of turns it takes to go upstairs.

edit: Like, if you're willing to hit all spellcasters with your efforts to balance level 8 and 9 spells, some more compelling ideas might be 1) make direct damage level 9s Vehumet-exclusive, 2) remove the spellcasting skill with little or no compensation for its contribution to fail rates.
*Lana Del Rey voice* , video games...

bel

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2148

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05

Post Thursday, 13th July 2017, 02:14

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

You still haven't given any reasons.

I do not have any issue with introducing a lvl 10 spell, but my point was not just about high-level spells. Fireball is a perfectly good mid-game spell, which is lvl 5 single-school now, instead of dual-school. Same with many other spells.

It's not clear to me why some spell levels were increased while others weren't. My guess is that fireball's level wasn't increased because it is in the starting book, and lvl 6 spells are noticeably harder to cast than lvl 5 spells. I don't know what the reasoning for other spells is, or if there's any reasoning at all. The idea was probably to simply implement it and see how it goes.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8748

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Friday, 14th July 2017, 03:49

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

watertreatmentRL wrote:edit: Like, if you're willing to hit all spellcasters with your efforts to balance level 8 and 9 spells, some more compelling ideas might be 1) make direct damage level 9s Vehumet-exclusive, 2) remove the spellcasting skill with little or no compensation for its contribution to fail rates.
You needn't even go that far: you can just increase the spell difficulty for level 8 and 9 spells. DCSS:
  Code:
    static const int difficulty_by_level[] =
    {
        0,
        3,
        15,
        35,

        70,
        100,
        150,

        200,
        260,
        330,
    };
It's not exactly smooth as-is, so increasing the last two wouldn't make things spoilery or anything.

For this message the author duvessa has received thanks:
watertreatmentRL

Snake Sneak

Posts: 90

Joined: Friday, 28th August 2015, 19:06

Post Sunday, 16th July 2017, 20:24

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

bug: unable to raise merfolk corpse in deep water

also the inventory is not infinite :(

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 642

Joined: Saturday, 12th December 2015, 23:54

Post Wednesday, 19th July 2017, 03:49

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Webtiles is back on cbro. I am still working on permabuffs, but I pushed some changes to qazlal and makhleb that should be live now. Detailed changelog whenever I get around to it, but the gist is that qazlal is a little less bad and makhleb has hurl damnation instead of greater destruction with some minor numerical nerfs to the passive heal and lesser servant.
Remove spell hunger.

For this message the author Hellmonk has received thanks:
Gigaslurp

Halls Hopper

Posts: 72

Joined: Wednesday, 13th April 2016, 01:37

Post Wednesday, 19th July 2017, 20:28

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Hellmonk wrote:Webtiles is back on cbro. I am still working on permabuffs, but I pushed some changes to qazlal and makhleb that should be live now. Detailed changelog whenever I get around to it, but the gist is that qazlal is a little less bad and makhleb has hurl damnation instead of greater destruction with some minor numerical nerfs to the passive heal and lesser servant.


In what way is Qaz lest bad?

...is he removed?
User avatar

Zot Zealot

Posts: 958

Joined: Monday, 29th September 2014, 09:04

Post Thursday, 20th July 2017, 00:26

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Qazlal changes:
1. Bonus SH buffed. Formula changed from min(piety, 120)/10 to min(piety, 160)/4. So max SH buffed from 8 to 20.
2. Elemental force reworked to Cloud Surge: "It was yet another ally ability, but on a god that doesn't play nice with allies. Instead of letting the player summon elementals that they can destroy in their own clouds, let them form a complete ring of longer-duration clouds around themselves. Also extends the duration of any clouds that already exist inside its radius. Radius is randomized but scales with invocations, up to a maximum of 7 tiles." The minimum radius is 2. Also, the piety cost was reduced from 6->4.
3. Disaster area piety cost reduced 10->8. Invo power scaling increased by 33%.
4. Upheaval piety cost reduced 3->2. Invo power scaling increased by 50%.

Other changes in this update:
* Ally kills give full experience
* Makh major destruction reworked to hurl damnation, passive healing nerfed
* Summon imp cap reduced to 1
* Pan lords and Killer Klowns no longer have chaotic attacks

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 276

Joined: Sunday, 6th November 2016, 19:19

Post Thursday, 20th July 2017, 17:54

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Would it be at all possible for hellcrawl to be a thing on CXC? I play it on CBRO, and it's really fun, but it would be nice to have it on a lower latency server as well. If not, would anyone know where I can contact the CXC admin? I can't seem to find his/her details anywhere.

Also, I've been playing some AE and it has pretty much no spells that do any good direct damage. Is it intended for AE to branch out into melee very early? It reminds me of venom mage in vanillia crawl.
16/26 on the way to GreaterOctopode (Win all backgrounds as an Octopode)

Progress so far : OpFi, OpGl, OpWn, OpAr, OpCK, OpMo, OpBe, OpHu, OpVM, OpAM, OpWr, OpFE, OpEE, OpNe, OpTm, OpSk

For this message the author Vajrapani has received thanks:
nago

Dungeon Master

Posts: 624

Joined: Thursday, 23rd October 2014, 03:08

Post Thursday, 20th July 2017, 21:32

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

i was reading the op again and realized you need to add a draining branded shrike called "antiskillrobin"

For this message the author CanOfWorms has received thanks: 3
duvessa, ZipZipskins, Zooty

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 443

Joined: Thursday, 16th February 2017, 15:23

Post Thursday, 20th July 2017, 23:52

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

The Qazlal changes are an improvement. Seems like you're actually getting something good in exchange for the noise. Maybe too good.

My feel is that the basic design of the god is problematic though. To get the most use of the clouds, you do a lot of luring.

late edit: new lich speech request: "Hell is full bitch 1-800-273-8255 National suicide prevention hotline"

https://twitter.com/dasharez0ne/status/ ... 6941971457
*Lana Del Rey voice* , video games...

bel

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2148

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05

Post Friday, 21st July 2017, 03:08

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Vajrapani wrote:Also, I've been playing some AE and it has pretty much no spells that do any good direct damage. Is it intended for AE to branch out into melee very early? It reminds me of venom mage in vanillia crawl.

Eh? AE has lots of direct damage spells: Magic Dart, Static Discharge and Fulminant Prism. It's not at all like VM, because few or no monsters resist electricity.
PreviousNext

Return to Crazy Yiuf's Corner

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.