The Tavern

Would like a "LOL" if you die on a stair. I tried to escape up the stairs because I forgot attacks stopped you from going up, and then died like a fool. Would have really appreciated some dank memes at that point.

Hellcrawl is awesome. Would say a net improvement on trunk for sure, even if the new Abyss is really frustrating.

Just make the abyss a 3 floor branch with a rune at the bottom, imo, and replace Banishment with Shafting or Paralysis or something. No one likes slogging through 0-XP monsters and the main mechanic of the Abyss isn't really worth keeping anyway...

Removing wretched stars seems to be the simplest solution.

bel wrote:Removing wretched stars seems to be the simplest solution.

Or make them give permanent mutations :)

Sprucery wrote:
bel wrote:Removing wretched stars seems to be the simplest solution.

Or make them give permanent mutations

If it is crazy ideas thread, then permanent mutations from smiting attacks are probably more cruel than making all damage from orb of fire damage max HP instead of current HP.

Hellmonk,
Is it possible to add difficulty levels, maybe similar to viewtopic.php?f=17&t=16633 ?
I realize it is probably a bad idea for online games but hopefully it won't be too hard to add to offline version.
Link to my fork is in Sandman25 signature.

Yes, I was considering some sort of easy mode via an exp scaling factor (would need to rework scoring as well) for people who want to try some of the features/unfeatures but don't want too much difficulty. I am in the middle of a massive project for my next update though, so I can't work on it right away.

There are no damage numbers for sticky flame DoT.

First try playing Hellcrawl and won it, it's way too easy

Spoiler: show

For feedback, the new Zot enemies are ridiculously tanky in comparison to some of the normal Zot spawns, and this was as a MiFi of Oka. I think I had an easier time killing orbs of fire than plutonium crabs, for example. I would see either toning them down a bit, or toning up the older residents to match so that it doesn't seem awkward as the golden dragon showing up red goes down easier than the zotling.

Floodkiller wrote:First try playing Hellcrawl and won it, it's way too easy
Spoiler: show
with a D:8 Krishna on a Minotaur of Oka.

For feedback, the new Zot enemies are ridiculously tanky in comparison to some of the normal Zot spawns, and this was as a MiFi of Oka. I think I had an easier time killing orbs of fire than plutonium crabs, for example. I would see either toning them down a bit, or toning up the older residents to match so that it doesn't seem awkward as the golden dragon showing up red goes down easier than the zotling.

I am not sure why you want to make it harder. If you had easier time vs orbs of fire than vs other monsters, then your character was clearly overpowered. We do need some easy combos and unrandarts for new players and fun games correspondingly

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
Floodkiller wrote:First try playing Hellcrawl and won it, it's way too easy
Spoiler: show
with a D:8 Krishna on a Minotaur of Oka.

For feedback, the new Zot enemies are ridiculously tanky in comparison to some of the normal Zot spawns, and this was as a MiFi of Oka. I think I had an easier time killing orbs of fire than plutonium crabs, for example. I would see either toning them down a bit, or toning up the older residents to match so that it doesn't seem awkward as the golden dragon showing up red goes down easier than the zotling.

I am not sure why you want to make it harder. If you had easier time vs orbs of fire than vs other monsters, then your character was clearly overpowered. We do need some easy combos and unrandarts for new players and fun games correspondingly

It's more of a statment about smoothing the difficulty, not asking for the game to be made harder. Depending on where Hellmonk wants the difficulty of Zot to be, either make the new monsters easier or the old monsters harder so that they all have roughly the same difficulty to them, instead of anything new being a difficulty spike over the old.

Edit: Also give golden dragons gold breath. I don't know what gold breath does, but they should have it.

the only thing that is really too tanky is THE GIAGGOSTUONO, 40+ AC is overkill, you basically cannot damage it with a 1h weapon.

I'd say that GIAGGOSTUONO's AC is a bit overkill as well. I was playing a VSBe with a one-handed weapon and got wrecked in Zot, though I was eventually killed by a Subtractor Snake.

Zot seems significantly tougher; perhaps it could be toned down a bit overall.

Just got a 3 win rune as a Naga Fighter worshipping Chei. Some things I noticed was that slime almost killed me around 6 times, more dangerous than Vaults 5 even with resist corrosion. This is due mostly to Acid blobs. A ranged highly accurate attack that does corrosion damage in a place with mainly open areas is just insane. This is on a character with 25 ev/20 Sh/30 AC. I just don't really know how to deal with them. I only met one gigantosaurus in zot. Got trample for about 100 damage or something ridiculous, but he went down eventually. With the removal of tele obstruction on zot, Controlled blink is worth it (with high intelligence). Zot 5 is just so dangerous. Has saved my life.

One thing that's hard to overstate is the power of vampiric weapons. They damage like unbranded weapons, but used strategically can double your effect hp, especially against high hp enemies with low resists.

Morgue file:
http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 195530.txt

Gonna go ahead and let the cat out of the bag. I'm working on a completely upstairs-free version of hellcrawl. This is gonna be a major change and will also break saves, which is why I'm waiting to put it up on cbro and cpo until I'm sure there are no major problems. If you want to try out the current build, it's playable at www.gnollcrawl.tk or you can download it from my github page. I expect to push it to the other servers in a couple weeks or so. I'll post a complete changelog at that time.

I actually pulled the changes before your post here and was surprised that it didn't have stairs, so I guessed that this was your next project. The game crashed on me a lot, though I haven't pulled the latest changes, so that might fix the issues. What are the "casual" and "normal" options for?

I suspect that you're moving in the direction of this post by tabstorm. I don't agree with the premises in the post, nor with most of the suggested solutions (I posted further down in the thread on why), but it's one possible way; it would just be a very different game to crawl.

My own preferred solution to stairs is given here; just make upstairs use up a consumable pass if you use them while some monster is hunting you. That is a less radical and more sensible way to proceed, in my opinion. But horses for courses.

"Casual" is my implementation of an easier difficulty setting. Right now it's just doubled experience gain and a reduction in score. I'm aware that this change will probably make hellcrawl feel much different from regular crawl, but I am interested in trying it (or rather, I am interested in seeing it tried but I don't expect that anyone else is going to try it). If you are still getting crashes after pulling the recent changes, or if you get crashes on the server, please shoot me a pm or post them so I can take a look.

Hey, just tried this first time. very nice. great work.
I noticed Ctrl-F finds stuff on previous floors.

The crashes seem to have as mysteriously disappeared as they appeared. I didn't even pull your most recent changes yet.

The dungeon now that bactracking is removed is ... interesting. I had to do Vaults:3 after Vaults:2. I succeeded since TrFi is OP, but I'm not sure I would have survived on other characters. In the older version, I used to do Depths and maybe Elf before doing Vaults:3. It might be worth making the Lair branch and Vaults to be 4 levels each and reducing Depths to 1 or 2 levels.

How are branch entrances determined? I found Slime entrance in both Orc:2 and Vaults:3. If I do Depths next, would I find another Slime entrance, or will it be gone forever? Also, is Elf gone?

You'll get a warning any time you try to travel in a way that would cause you to skip a branch and miss out.

The canonical hellcrawl order is D->orc->sbranch->V->slime->U->pan->Z->hell

To expand a little on that, currently there are shortcuts to vaults (from D:15), slime (from orc), and depths (from D:15 and vaults) that should give you a warning prompt. Elf is a timed portal that should always appear on depths:1, though I might try to make it untimed. There's no warning for skipping pan yet, but it will always have an entrance on depths:3. Zot is not runelocked so you can freely skip V:3 if you feel it's safer to lose out on the exp than try to clear it; the slime and depths entrances are in the center of the map for that reason.

Played a stairless game on gnollcrawl.tk

It was everything I dreamed it would be

Hellcrawl is best Crawl, Stone Soup might as well be a dead branch

Suggestion: Have Vehumet add spells to your library, now that this feature exists, instead of having gifts that can time out and be overwritten. I'm not sure if this has actually been done already yet, but it just occurred to me.

Half-assed a changelog from commit messages, hope it's useful to someone:

https://github.com/Hellmonk/hellcrawl/b ... LLCRAWL.md

Naturally, it will usually be out of date!

Implojin wrote:Hellcrawl is best Crawl

that's how i feel too atm. Only playing hellcrawl

btw @hellmonk: my Mi was able to headbutt while swimming in deep water

Hi! Hellcrawl is good, thanks for making it. I guess the latest release doesn't run in a 64 bit OS (I'm on Linux Mint 18)? I can neither play the game after compiling (crash on D1) nor run the provided Windows binary in wine by default (crash on startup), but does run in Wine 32 bit mode fine.

It works fine on 64-bit Ubuntu.

hairmachine wrote:Hi! Hellcrawl is good, thanks for making it. I guess the latest release doesn't run in a 64 bit OS (I'm on Linux Mint 18)? I can neither play the game after compiling (crash on D1) nor run the provided Windows binary in wine by default (crash on startup), but does run in Wine 32 bit mode fine.

I just did a test compile under msys2/mingw-w64 on win 7 64, it compiled fine and I brought a character to D:2 without any crashes.

Weird. Must be a system specific thing somewhere, though vanilla crawl is compiling fine. Looks like the error I get is something to do with Lua, so possibly something weird with my setup there: Lua error: global_prelude: bad header in precompiled chunk

hairmachine wrote:Weird. Must be a system specific thing somewhere, though vanilla crawl is compiling fine. Looks like the error I get is something to do with Lua, so possibly something weird with my setup there: Lua error: global_prelude: bad header in precompiled chunk

I spun up a VM with Mint 18.1 64-bit, installed git, cloned the repo at https://github.com/Hellmonk/hellcrawl.git, ran git submodule update --init, installed the dependencies listed in crawl-ref/install.txt under the Debian section, compiled with make TILES=y PCH=y -j8, and took a char to D:2. It seems to work fine?

Spoiler: show

Maybe it's a savegame incompatibility problem with characters from older versions existing within your install? Hellmonk did mention that this latest version would break saves.

Implojin wrote:I spun up a VM with Mint 18.1 64-bit, installed git, cloned the repo at https://github.com/Hellmonk/hellcrawl.git, ran git submodule update --init, installed the dependencies listed in crawl-ref/install.txt under the Debian section, compiled with make TILES=y PCH=y -j8, and took a char to D:2. It seems to work fine?

nice! Do you have any interest in helping compile releases, or at least suggesting what settings I should use to compile releases? I'm just using the info I found in docs/develop/release/guide.txt (except not using LTO, because that has been bad to use). I'd love to compile hellcrawl and yiufcrawl for more platforms, or get travis-ci to compile them for us!

Well... whatever it was, after completely deleting the folder, re-cloning, re-installing deps and re-compiling it is now working fine.

Thanks for helping out! Sorry for wasting a piece of your weekend!

@hellmonk:
two bugs i encountered:
- the game segfaulted when i tried to x-v a statue (it had a whip, dont remember its name nor ever seeing it before)
- the pick-up options seems somehow broken. e.g., i toggle pickup for all unknown jewellery but when i see a ring of see invis it is not picked up and auto-marked as no-pick-up

- the game segfaulted when i tried to x-v a statue (it had a whip, dont remember its name nor ever seeing it before)

This is a bug that was fixed in mainline crawl, so the next release should pull in the bugfix commit.

Well, I am out of town attending a funeral so the update is getting pushed back a bit. I need to push some bugfixes and merge some things from trunk, then go through all the vaults and delete the rest of the disconnected ones, so I will try to get that done when I come back.

cigotuvi wrote:hellcrawl is pretty good
http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 081607.txt
first troll win?

bug? I found a manual of poison magic

you should rename them "tactical crabs." got 12 muts and went braindead on zot:1
fr: merge the new mutation pot change

Seems strange if this is the first, although its possible of course. I did 8 runes on an OpFi, think that is still the 3rd highest score on CBRO, and I tried TrFi a few times and it was certainly considerably easier than OpFi. I think I do like GhFi better than TrFi though. Tr is a little funky though in that if you do what I have done on some play throughs and leverage stats from chei to get high EV/SH at an early point the troll size and terrible aptitudes mess with this alot and you need a good equipment drop to make up for it. But they also can easily be made to hit hard and do so very reliably.

But then again I also used Chei to get the 1st and 3rd scores on CBRO and one of my GhFi wins was with Qaz(which is a very cool setup in hellcrawl btw) and did all of them UC, so what do I know clearly I am very un-optimal?

tabstorm wrote:Why does a god need to be removed to add IJC? With that said both TSO and Zin could use a rework to make them less useless.

Zin's recitation is fairly OK in Hellcrawl early on since it helps with orcs and you can get Sanctuary online pretty early but vitalisation needs so much invo to be really nice and recitation starts wanting pretty high invo as well that it is a rather large issue. Basicaly to be somewhat worse than Oka and a few other goods you need to invest far too much XP (from a hellcrawl perspective) so in general it matures way too late and takes way too much XP.

You could take this line of reasoning to all gods that need very high invocation but I found that for Qaz this was not actually true. Even though Qaz is one of if not the most Invo hungry god it actually worked fine for the most part due to what you do with it. I know I killed at least two pand lords with Qaz invocation on my 3 rune GhFi orb run and jackal had the first Qaz hellcrawl win and that went pretty ok too. We both trained invo to 25+. Although both those wins were a few updates ago.

Alright, I think I'm pretty close to finished with upstairs removal. I will try to get this up on CBRO/CPO on Friday or Saturday, unless there are major bugs. As a reminder, this will break saves (and therefore I'm going to ask for old saves to be deleted from the servers when the update gets pushed), so if you have a game in progress try to finish it by April 6. Some of this stuff is not even on gnollcrawl.tk yet. Here's the changelog:

Dungeon layout overhaul:
- No upstairs. You go down, you don't go back up.
- Disconnected levels should not generate. I removed all the disconnected vaults that I could find as well, though it's possible that there are some more that need to be deleted.
- Orc entrance is on D:15
- Sbranch entrance is on Orc:2
- Vaults entrance is on Sbranch:3. There's a shortcut to vaults from D:15 if you are brave enough to take it.
- Slime entrance is on Vaults:3. There's also a shortcut on Orc:2.
- Depths entrance is on Slime:4. There are shortcuts to depths from Vaults:3 (if you don't want to do slime) and D:15 (for absolute madmen only). Like the other shortcuts, you will receive a warning prompt.
- Elf is a timed portal vault on Depths:1
- Pan entrance is guaranteed on U:3, but can show up elsewhere as well. Pan is 5 levels, the four named panlords in a random order followed by holypan. You can't back out partway through, so you only get one attempt at the whole thing.
- The abyssal rune and guaranteed abyss entries are removed; abyss is strictly a bad place to be. Abyss exits are more common and killing enemies will continue to generate exits after the first one, instead of generating stairs down. Max rune count is now 9 (sbranch, vaults, slime, 5 pan runes, hell).
- Zot is no longer runelocked.
- Hell is guaranteed on Zot:5, in the back of the orb chamber, and cannot be entered without the orb.
- Dungeon exits are on hellbranch:7. This means that the canonical branch order is D->O->Sbranch->V->Slime->U->Zot->Hell, with various shortcuts available and Pan remaining entirely optional. The orbrun goes through 8 unexplored Hell levels (vestibule and then 7 from the branch) instead of back out the dungeon. Vestibule and orbrun monster spawns are reduced to make this somewhat less insane.
Monsters that spawn within 3 tiles of your entry to a new floor in D will get deleted. This should help eliminate some of the really bullshit early stairs. After D you're on your own.
You can move through deep water or lava with any species. It's extremely slow to do so and prohibits attacking, throwing things, and casting spells. Lava will also damage you for ~1/10th of your max hp every turn.
Finally removed stealth modifiers. Everything gets the equivalent of stealth mod 18, which is slightly better than mainline crawl's value of 15.
Monsters no longer zap wands, quaff potions, read scrolls, or evoke things. At long last, the game is item destruction free.
Depths for most uniques have been adjusted. Early uniques spawn deeper since it's not as easy to dive past them. Many late uniques can spawn on more floors since the various branch shortenings left them with very narrow or nonexistent native depths.
Casual difficulty: an easier difficulty setting. You get double experience, 1/1000th as much score, and the constant reminder that you're a casual. I will tweak the exp value and probably increase some aspects of item generation for this difficulty in the future.
The only permitted jewelry enchantments for non-artifact rings of str/int/dex/slay/ev/prot and amulets of reflection are 3 (more common) and 6 (less common). Artifacts can still get a wide range of values.
Switched spellbook goldification from my dirty implementation to Doesnt's much cleaner version.
Minor commits and bugfixes:
- THE GIAGGOSTUONOs have less AC.
- Dev Favorites are now called orb children and hit a little harder.
- Giant Giants can constrict you.
- Removed Ijyb, since his gimmick doesn't work anymore.
- Removed items: ring of stealth, ring of flight, wand of random effects, scroll of recharging.
- Carrying the orb no longer ruins your stealth.
- Hell effects give exp again.
- Cloaks of stealth work as intended when you're flying.
- Attempt to fix an xv crash for an obscure statue vault.
- Ammo is on default autopickup. Removed a couple autopickup exceptions for jewelry to fix a bug.

This update has taken me longer to get out than it really needed to, probably, but I think it is in a pretty good place now. I would like to add a per-floor clock in the near future to avoid really degenerate play, probably refactoring hell effects and/or orbrun spawns while I'm at it. Possible alternative to a clock: make the scoring system better and encourage grabbing high scores rather than playing for winrate. That's probably easier said than done though. I also plan on doing a pretty thorough overhaul of mutations soon, specifically looking to trim some redundant mutations and flatten a lot of low impact multi-level mutations to a single, stronger level. As usual, I have more ideas than free time...

Hellmonk wrote:At long last, the game is item destruction free.

Zing!

dunno if it's too wussy for hellcrawl, but consider eliminating god wrath for desertion.

Since you now can't return to the temple, you now can't switch gods unless you find an altar later in the dungeon, and in that case you'll have very little choice. I think this is pretty cool for a bunch of reasons; maybe the biggest is that if you want to convert, you now have to improvise. imo this feature has a lot of potential for interesting play, so much so that players should be encouraged to use it.

Plus, not getting to pick when and to whom you convert is already a substantial penalty; in this light, I wonder if wrath is sort of redundant anyway.

@hellmonk: some issues i noticed:

- BiA allies behave weird when dealing with eels on land
- Do the trapdoor stairs make any sense anymore?
- Something about auto-pickup is broken atm. E.g., it will pickup a 2nd ring rCorr but not another AC ring
- Does it make sense to show items from previous floors when searching
- I think inventory should be infinite. Inventory management is lame

Hellcrawl is really awesome, I havent played dcss since I discovered it

We are live on cbro. Also, dith got ash's monster detection. There's a bug with wanderers in the current version that will crash the game before anything happens if they get a randbook assigned in character generation, so you might have to reroll wn a little more often until I get it fixed. Working on some other minor bugfixes as well.

E: Feedback so far has suggested that this version is probably too hard. There are probably player buffs/dungeon nerfs coming in the near future.

First time trying this! Early impression is that having everything pre-identified gives a noticeable boost to survivability early game that partially offsets lack of upstairs, though it's probably not enough depending on what enemies/branch you're dealing with. No food or ID minigame feels nice so far.

I have a game of hellcrawl on cbro that's crashing every time I try to take an exit from holy pan, with the message "Unfortunately, your game crashed. 3???"

I left Hellmonk a !tell in ##crawl, but I thought I'd post it here too.

edit: The crash dumps are here and here:
http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 000420.txt
http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 001444.txt

ERROR in 'tags.cc' at line 1081: no upstairs on Depths:3???

looking into it

e: I pushed a fix for this, as well as a fix for the wanderer book bug.

I also included the beginnings of some mutation reform. Neqoxecs get corrupting pulse (which has been nerfed to only give one level of badmuts at a time instead of two) instead of malmutate, and Wretched stars get malmutate instead of corrupting pulse. I hope that this makes neqos feel less bad to deal with. Several mutations have been flattened to a single level: all stat gain/loss muts are now +5/-5, octopode tentacle spike is one level (equivalent to old rank 3, massive optm buff), camouflage is one level (equivalent to old rank 3, massive octopode buff), most scales mutations are out of the general mutation pool, sturdy frame is single level of ER-6 and no longer appears as a demonspawn scales mut, shaggy fur is a single level and gives AC+4, evolution is a single level about halfway between the old two levels. You can get los 8 as a bad mutation, as well.

Also, artificers now get a single charge of iceblast to partially compensate for losing their wand of random effects.

Shops in dungeon feel rare, bordering on non-existent. If the idea is to phase out shops, that's great. If not, gold seems pretty useless without shops. Having to go to orc to cash in on your gold is a little too rough on no-branch conducts, I think.

watertreatmentRL wrote:Shops in dungeon feel rare, bordering on non-existent. If the idea is to phase out shops, that's great. If not, gold seems pretty useless without shops. Having to go to orc to cash in on your gold is a little too rough on no-branch conducts, I think.

i tend to see a normal amount of shops in hellcrawl. perhaps you were just unlucky.

I'd very much like to see:
- infinite inventory
- MR shown as a number too (so you can compare to the x-v description)
- skill progress shown like this e.g. 123/1000 (like in crash files) to indicate progress as well as "difficultly" of training for the next level of a skill more precisely
- allies not attacking when out of los is a joke imo e.g.:

Code:: ### @#E #A# ###

hellcrawl is great!

Completely removing the ability to back up has an unfun consequence if you are going fast and miss a piece of equipment you can't go back and get it. I missed a nice +6 piece of plate on D14 and didn't realize it until Orc1 and that really sucked. I could have easily gone back and got it otherwise and I would have basically had to keep just double checking all equipment drops to not have missed it which isn't that fun and slows things down.

Maybe give a limited ability to grab an item from a previous floor.

severen wrote:Completely removing the ability to back up has an unfun consequence if you are going fast and miss a piece of equipment you can't go back and get it. I missed a nice +6 piece of plate on D14 and didn't realize it until Orc1 and that really sucked. I could have easily gone back and got it otherwise and I would have basically had to keep just double checking all equipment drops to not have missed it which isn't that fun and slows things down.

Maybe give a limited ability to grab an item from a previous floor.

What i have to do (hint: tedious) is ctrl-F for relevant stuff before >
This becomes somewhat messier given that items from previous floor are also shown, even though they're lost forever

The Tavern

[proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

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