[proclick] new fork, hellcrawl


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Post Wednesday, 12th October 2016, 02:06

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

goodcoolguy wrote:btw, is CPO up to date with the latest progress on hellcrawl? I wanna see how freakin huge solid and tight it is...

It should be up to date, yeah.
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Post Wednesday, 12th October 2016, 02:21

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

goodcoolguy wrote:Last time you run a character with 21 ac in a game called "hellcrawl," I guess.


Why?
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Post Wednesday, 12th October 2016, 02:22

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Hm, you're right. I should instead surmise that you'll do it again...
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Post Wednesday, 12th October 2016, 02:24

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

goodcoolguy wrote:Hm, you're right. I should instead surmise that you'll do it again...


Are you trying to tell me that I should git gut and start training armour? :)
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Post Wednesday, 12th October 2016, 04:25

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Something is wrong with average hp, a spiny frog skeleton has 0 average hp.
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Post Wednesday, 12th October 2016, 04:44

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

It's just wrong with the display. This was fixed in trunk but the fix isn't backported. You'll see the same issue with hep ancestor.

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Post Wednesday, 12th October 2016, 04:53

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

chequers wrote:It's just wrong with the display. This was fixed in trunk but the fix isn't backported. You'll see the same issue with hep ancestor.

Can you point me to the commit I need to look at? I'll try and get this fixed. Looks like all derived undead have bad stats.
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Post Wednesday, 12th October 2016, 07:18

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Logged into my save and "outside, the world ends" :( I don't think i was playing for THAT long.

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Post Wednesday, 12th October 2016, 07:23

[proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Played for the first time last night (TrollCK) and the game felt like normal crawl until orc. So from D1-12 just felt the same besides getting berserked by an angry ghost

Edit: also found like 3 good shops what are these lies fam
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Post Wednesday, 12th October 2016, 09:06

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Some notes after a couple wins:

Oka seems pretty damn good due to fast piety growth, directly counters the reduction in experience and equipment. Easily become too thick, solid, and tight to have any trouble by the end of dungeon. I don't know if this is worth addressing though.

The depths situation is too extreme to be fixed by just reducing it by half. I suggest depths be eliminated entirely and replaced with vaults. Might need to play with vaults spawns to make up for a fraction of the xp lost and reduce silly monsters (vanilla orcs, ogres, and centaurs, many shapeshifters big offenders there). Vaults 5 is still ridiculously easy with post-depths characters.

Troves might be broken somehow. Had one that asked for two ?acquirement, but found none in a fairly high completion game.

Overall pretty good until you get to late vaults, depths part of the game.
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Post Wednesday, 12th October 2016, 12:43

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

goodcoolguy wrote:Some notes after a couple wins:

Oka seems pretty damn good due to fast piety growth, directly counters the reduction in experience and equipment. Easily become too thick, solid, and tight to have any trouble by the end of dungeon. I don't know if this is worth addressing though.

The depths situation is too extreme to be fixed by just reducing it by half. I suggest depths be eliminated entirely and replaced with vaults. Might need to play with vaults spawns to make up for a fraction of the xp lost and reduce silly monsters (vanilla orcs, ogres, and centaurs, many shapeshifters big offenders there). Vaults 5 is still ridiculously easy with post-depths characters.


Oka is the best god for the fork because finesse doubles damage and FoFi works great with it because of kill holes and saved XP for shields, weapon, armour, dodging. I don't think balance should be based on OP combos.

I disagree about depths, Depths 1 is often very dangerous in my experience and some Depths vaults are very dangerous too, it is my favorite branch probably. I would try 3 floors for every branch: Vaults, Depths, Zot.
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Post Wednesday, 12th October 2016, 13:27

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

No, it's the gifts and heroism. Finesse is a sometimes food. Also, FoFi is an average combo.

The vaults spawn table can easily be supplemented with depths monsters. After vaults 1-3, depths is not a problem.
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Post Wednesday, 12th October 2016, 13:53

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

goodcoolguy wrote:No, it's the gifts and heroism. Finesse is a sometimes food. Also, FoFi is an average combo.

The vaults spawn table can easily be supplemented with depths monsters. After vaults 1-3, depths is not a problem.


Try playing MuVM or alike IMHO. Initially I wanted to join Chei but then chickened out and joined Vehumet instead (Chei was missing in temple anyway). Mummy cannot be hasted in hellcrawl.

Sorry, I took a look at your game, I think your game cannot be used to balance depths because of
  Code:
22048 | Shoals:2 | Identified the +10 plate armour of Amas Ano {*Slow rC+++ Int+5 Slay+5} (You took it off a merfolk on level 3 of the Shoals)


Spoiler: show
If you didn't need finesse, then the character was OP
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Post Wednesday, 12th October 2016, 14:14

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

I think buffing some very weak races should be considered in Hellcrawl, in all seriousness. The difficulty level is good for the uber/above average/average races, but I think some of the really bad races like Mu, Op might be a little too weak, especially since Mu can't haste without Gozag. Maybe Mu should get -1 apts instead.
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Post Thursday, 13th October 2016, 05:34

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Midweek update, coming soon:
  • Fixed the derived undead display bugs. Known bug: classed draconians and demonspawn have incorrect AC displayed. I'll try and fix this soon.
  • Max turncount increased to 4 million aut. Apologies Lethediver, I didn't expect 200k turns to catch anyone but I guess it was too short.
  • Depths is shortened to 3 floors and slime is shortened to 4. I need some more time to figure out how I want to change monster spawns and branch placements before I consider dropping more floors. Probably should cut elf too, but I like the branch ending.

Plans for next update:
  • make a lot of changes to monster selection
  • try to branch roulette the hells (maybe cut vestibule too)
  • remove the demonic rune

Re: other stuff. Oka will get nerfed at some point. Possibilities include reducing piety gain, increasing heroism piety cost, increasing gift timeout. Trove code hasn't been modified at all, presumably the quantities of stuff they ask for will need to be reduced. I'm not opposed to buffing weak races but it's not high priority for me at the moment.

You will know this stuff is live on cpo when chequers thanks this post/posts in the thread.
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Post Thursday, 13th October 2016, 05:37

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Really nice work man and i love where you're headed with the fork too. More deaths, less tedium is definitely the way to go.

It did suck to lose my PC but such are the travails of testing. We few, proud heroes must pave the way for generations to come, with our own broken bodies if need be.

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Post Thursday, 13th October 2016, 08:28

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Finally completed a game, albeit with a strong combo (OgBe). I barely even used BiA.

As others have said, the game felt like a normal crawl game after a certain point. It's hard to see how this can be fixed though since Abyss exists and theoretically anyone can scum for XP there even if Depths/Vaults/Elf are cut further. And more generally, as long as extended exists, players can always opt to do those levels to get more XP.

FR: apply this commit to disable translocations in Zot. I inadvertently ninja'd the orb when a teleport trap landed me in the orb chamber and I realized that cblink wasn't disabled yet in hellcrawl.

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Post Thursday, 13th October 2016, 09:34

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Hellmonk wrote:Probably should cut elf too, but I like the branch ending.

Just an idea: if only the branch end is worth keeping maybe it will work better as a portal?

Thanks for working on this, by the way!

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Post Thursday, 13th October 2016, 12:28

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

tabstorm wrote:I think buffing some very weak races should be considered in Hellcrawl, in all seriousness. The difficulty level is good for the uber/above average/average races, but I think some of the really bad races like Mu, Op might be a little too weak, especially since Mu can't haste without Gozag. Maybe Mu should get -1 apts instead.



Please don't. Some combos/gods might be unwinnable and this is good.
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Post Thursday, 13th October 2016, 12:31

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Please don't buff anything, the whole point of the branch is making everything harder and less tedious, right?
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Post Thursday, 13th October 2016, 13:18

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

IMO Mu should just be removed as a player race. No food makes them even less distinctive. The undead resistances and vulnerabilities are already duplicated in the 2 other undead species. Their other features (potionless, rF-, and bad apts) just make them terrible. And oh they get a necro enhancer, big deal.

In regular crawl, Mu serves a niche as a challenge race. In hellcrawl though, one would hope that the base difficulty is high enough that such a niche isn't required, or at least can be filled by a more interesting species.

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Post Thursday, 13th October 2016, 13:57

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

DracheReborn wrote:IMO Mu should just be removed as a player race. No food makes them even less distinctive. The undead resistances and vulnerabilities are already duplicated in the 2 other undead species. Their other features (potionless, rF-, and bad apts) just make them terrible. And oh they get a necro enhancer, big deal.

In regular crawl, Mu serves a niche as a challenge race. In hellcrawl though, one would hope that the base difficulty is high enough that such a niche isn't required, or at least can be filled by a more interesting species.


Mu cannot quaff also. I wonder why people try to remove everything they have problems winning, does it make you feel better? I am playing MuVM of Vehumet at the moment, it is unique type of glass cannon. Well, not even cannon, just glass, as I almost died to wyvern zombie and survived just because I had a wand of confusion ;)

It is ok to have challenging races in challenging fork.
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Post Thursday, 13th October 2016, 14:14

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Mu cannot quaff also. I wonder why people try to remove everything they have problems winning, does it make you feel better? I am playing MuVM of Vehumet at the moment, it is unique type of glass cannon. Well, not even cannon, just glass, as I almost died to wyvern zombie and survived just because I had a wand of confusion ;)

It is ok to have challenging races in challenging fork.


Yes, you are pro, I am not. I am actually quite a terrible player. Believe me I have trouble winning lots of races, not just mummies.

I did mention potionless. If that's interesting, I think it would be better to move it to another species (offhand suggestion: give it to DD, remove no healing).

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Post Thursday, 13th October 2016, 14:27

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

DracheReborn wrote:I did mention potionless. If that's interesting, I think it would be better to move it to another species (offhand suggestion: give it to DD, remove no healing).


I still don't understand why you are trying to remove mummy.
Mummy provides unique experience unlike DD with healing.
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Post Friday, 14th October 2016, 14:56

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Just finished a MuFi^oka on the new version. I think the cuts to depths helped, but probably aren't enough. The character was far too Thick. Solid. Tight. for V5, though this character had fairly good luck with loot, including sceptre of torment and +6 slay, rf gloves. Completely wrecked everything past the lair branch. Pre-d15 was good. Low consumables, best weapon was a +4 drain mace until a d15 drain eveningstar from Oka. Had a couple of close calls, one of which I dealt with by tactical use of immolation, which I am almost never pushed into in normal crawl. No blink until after first lair branch! No acquirement, no brand weapon. Good!

Had a very open zot 5 layout with stairs far from the lungs, which left me hurting at the beginning of the orbrun. This was kind of good, might be worth thinking about making open layouts more common in zot 5. The zot spawns were nice. More curse toes, more gold dragons it seemed.

My feeling is that the loot is too loose. Reducing the amount of loot in elf 3 would help, as would some kind of general nerf to artifacts. I got that circular encompass with lots of shops and artifact rings for d15. I suggest removing this from hellcrawl (also normalcrawl). It is game-breakingly heavy on loot. This has also been my experience encountering it dcss -- not a good vault guys, rethink this.

I am still convinced that consolidating vaults and depths is the way forward with respect to experience. I did not feel a crunch on experience at any part of the late mid- to endgame. One thing that might be worth a try is increasing the spell levels of rmsl, blink, and swiftness to 3.
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Post Friday, 14th October 2016, 15:04

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

  Code:
+ Level 23.1 Fighting
 - Level 13.0 Maces & Flails
 - Level 14.5 Throwing
 - Level 15.5 Armour
 - Level 13.9 Dodging
 - Level 18.4 Shields
 - Level 6.0 Spellcasting
 + Level 8.6 Charms
 - Level 6.6 Translocations
 + Level 8.6 Air Magic
 - Level 8.0 Invocations


I am not sure we need to decrease XP, this looks good to me.
Or what is your opinion about good XP?
Is it something like
  Code:
 + Level 15.1 Fighting
 - Level 13.0 Maces & Flails
 - Level 15.5 Armour
 - Level 13.9 Dodging
  - Level 8.0 Invocations

It would mean just pure melee is possible IMHO.
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Post Friday, 14th October 2016, 15:08

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Basically, I think I should have to make a choice between throwing and rmsl/swiftness/blink. Fighting also got too high, in my opinion. Of course on a stronger species, all those numbers would be a lot better. This character was a complete beast in the endgame, despite lack of apts, potions, good shield spawns.
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Post Friday, 14th October 2016, 15:16

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

goodcoolguy wrote:Basically, I think I should have to make a choice between throwing and rmsl/swiftness/blink. Fighting also got too high, in my opinion. Of course on a stronger species, all those numbers would be a lot better. This character was a complete beast in the endgame, despite lack of apts, potions, good shield spawns.


RMsl/Swiftness/Blink should be moved to level 4 IMHO, these are too powerful for their current level. Mummy has 0 aptitude in fighting, that's only slightly below average so I almost always have fighting as my highest Mummy skill (the only exception is UC).
I don't see how XP is responsible for the character being a beast with 13 in M&F and 14 in Throwing as strongest attack or 15 Armour and 13 Dodging for defense. I think it was caused by Oka's abilities and nice slaying from gear, it's ok, Oka is arguably the most powerful god for pure melee late game. Only Makhleb with axes can be better IMHO.
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Post Friday, 14th October 2016, 15:28

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Level 4 swiftness definitely makes sense to me. I don't know about blink and rmsl.

As I said before, Oka has a certain interaction with the kinds of cuts made in hellcrawl that makes it more powerful than it is in normal crawl relative to other gods. Obviously would not have skilled this character the way I did with other gods, which would've made things a lot tighter on experience. Arguably the right thing to do in this game was to go hep on d2, but it turned out that the gifts made a big difference. That was unknowable at the time I decided to wait for Oka.

In my opinion, the heavy armor melee character (with shield or without), as exemplified in the dudes I've been running in hellcrawl, is the strongest crawl "build" in the current meta. If you can't build a good heavy armor melee mummy in hellcrawl for lack experience and/or equipment, this would probably be a good thing. I mean, if mummy is supposed to be a challenge species, I can tell you this was an occasionally interesting game, but a challenge? No.
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Post Friday, 14th October 2016, 15:35

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

The bottom line is pure melee > * in DCSS. Even charms and translocations are overrated except spectral weapon and spellblink. I don't know how people can conclude anything else except by declaring that mages are better on D:2 and the game ends on D:3.
As a pure melee character, you can still win the game with weak defenses at around XL 22: https://crawl.jorgrun.rocks/morgue/tabs ... 235732.txt
To be fair, I am playing an overpowered race in this game, but I still have only 28/18 and -4 HP.

Once you have sufficient attack/defense for zot 5, you can just go win, without any need for PoG abuse and the like. With a few good drops this can easily happen for a pure melee character around XL21.
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Post Friday, 14th October 2016, 15:37

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

I think we have interesting choices here. Should we have a god which makes game easy no matter what species you choose? Depending on answer you may want to either nerf Trog/Oka or leave everything as is.
Should we have some combos unwinnable (Mu Conjurer of Qazlal, for example) if we balance species and XP around assumption that everyone goes with Trog/Oka and pure melee? Personally I would change nothing, it allows to have fun for everyone.

Hellcrawl should be playable by new players IMHO, it still should be easy for MiBe and alike.

Edit: tabstorm, current highest score belongs to pure caster DE of Vehumet ;)
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Post Friday, 14th October 2016, 15:46

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

It's still 2 turns slower than the fastest 15 rune win. Not every game will spawn the robe of vines. Also, this is a broad statement, it's not as if a DEFi is better than a DEFE. But for most races a heavily-armored melee character is going to have the easiest time.
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Post Friday, 14th October 2016, 15:50

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

tabstorm wrote:Also, this is a broad statement, it's not as if a DEFi is better than a DEFE. But for most races a heavily-armored melee character is going to have the easiest time.


Well, if we had more races like DE and less races like HO, then you would be claiming that magic > *, right?
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Post Friday, 14th October 2016, 15:51

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

It's just a matter of time before that record is beaten by a .16/.17 heavy armor melee guy. The main innovation of that run was using PoG to knock turns off travel/exploration time.

If I understand hellcrawl correctly, it is about making the most Thick. Solid. Tight. version of crawl possible without doing any major coding, according to the tavern/IRC/tileschat memes. So far so good, in my opinion.
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Post Friday, 14th October 2016, 15:56

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

goodcoolguy wrote:It's just a matter of time before that record is beaten by a .16/.17 heavy armor melee guy.


Do you mean they cannot do it in 0.19 where DE was won? I basically don't understand why there are no limitations for records, can I use double-melee bug version?
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Post Friday, 14th October 2016, 15:57

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Maybe. How many different variations on DE can you have though? Magic is also reliant on divine assistance or luck to have a functional character after early game in a way that melee isn't.
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Post Friday, 14th October 2016, 16:06

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
goodcoolguy wrote:It's just a matter of time before that record is beaten by a .16/.17 heavy armor melee guy.


Do you mean they cannot do it in 0.19 where DE was won? I basically don't understand why there are no limitations for records, can I use double-melee bug version?


.19a is now substantially different from the .19a that run was done with. The zot translocation nerfs will add a few hundred turns. There's no reason to go for a record on a version you know is going to hurt you out of the gate.

Anyway, I think this business about high scores in dcss is argumentative/offtopic...
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Post Friday, 14th October 2016, 16:57

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Yes, I suggest to use last stable version only (currently 0.18.1) for speedrunning. You are right about offtopic.
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Post Saturday, 15th October 2016, 00:47

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Not sure it is related to Hellmonk changes but some vaults are probably too fun. That's where I landed while trying to run away from Hill Giant, Fannar, Orc High Priest and a couple of other monsters:

Image
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Post Sunday, 16th October 2016, 23:44

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

October 16 update:
  • Elf has been reduced to a single floor.
  • Vaults is 3 floors instead of 4.
  • Hell branches are on a roulette: you'll get one of the four at random.
  • Depths has lost some weak enemies and picked up a few from the former Crypt and Tomb monster sets.
  • Said crypt and tomb enemies have had their experience modifiers reduced slightly.
  • Vaults, Elf, and the Sbranches have had monster sets adjusted and a few weaker enemies cut or reduced in weight.
  • A few minor changes to early/mid dungeon enemies, in line with the goal of previous changes.
  • Okawaru nerf: Heroism is much more expensive and Finesse is somewhat more expensive.
  • Gift timeout is longer for Trog and Okawaru.
  • Item generation has been re-weighted to hand out more books and fewer wands.
  • Death oozes can attack to drain speed. Their damage is unchanged and they can still rot you.
  • Draconian enemies should have accurate base AC displayed.
This should be live already. I'd like to distinguish the vaults and depths monster sets further and maybe reduce depths to two floors. It's also possible to remove some experience by reducing the exp modifiers of late-game enemies. I'm not sure how much time I'll have to work on this over the next few weeks, but I'll at least try and pull some of the recent changes from mainline crawl.
Remove spell hunger.

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chequers, goodcoolguy, ker, tedric

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 16th October 2016, 23:57

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Piety cost for both Heroism and Finesse is listed as "small" after upgrading to the latest version. Is it expected?
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
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Post Monday, 17th October 2016, 00:03

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Piety cost for both Heroism and Finesse is listed as "small" after upgrading to the latest version. Is it expected?

I'm not sure what the cutoffs for piety display are. Base costs are 3 for heroism (was 1) and 4 for finesse (was 3), I guess 4 still counts as small. TODO: change piety cost display to a number.
Remove spell hunger.

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VeryAngryFelid

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Post Monday, 17th October 2016, 01:56

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

I cannot enter Elf 2:

Image
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
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Post Monday, 17th October 2016, 01:59

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

VeryAngryFelid wrote:I cannot enter Elf 2:

Image

hmm, looks like a save compatibility problem related to some vault deletions. Are you trapped lower in elf? I think I can fix this but I can't update until tomorrow.

E: I think I fixed it locally, I can update it tomorrow. Bug will affect any games in progress before elf was shortened because there's no vault for the elven hall of blades entry.
Remove spell hunger.

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VeryAngryFelid
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Post Monday, 17th October 2016, 02:46

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

The book idea is good. A request I had forgotten about: Remove curses and identification! (Of course, reduce generation of quality consumables in early dungeon to avoid a straight player buff.)

I'll give it another whirl with recent changes. Looks good.
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Post Monday, 17th October 2016, 02:55

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Yes, I am trapped, the game ends unexpectedly and when I reload it, it tries to enter Elf 2 and ends again.
When my game was upgraded, even entrance to Elf hadn't generated yet:
  Code:
15176 | Orc:2    | Upgraded the game from 0.19-a0-1730-g4c49b04 to 0.19-a0-1747-g5e2567a
..
22506 | Vaults:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Vaults
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
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Post Monday, 17th October 2016, 03:04

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Yes, I am trapped, the game ends unexpectedly and when I reload it, it tries to enter Elf 2 and ends again.
When my game was upgraded, even entrance to Elf hadn't generated yet:
  Code:
15176 | Orc:2    | Upgraded the game from 0.19-a0-1730-g4c49b04 to 0.19-a0-1747-g5e2567a
..
22506 | Vaults:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Vaults

Yes, I believe branch lengths are generated at game start. I will see if chequers will let me update to fix this tonight.
Remove spell hunger.

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VeryAngryFelid

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Post Monday, 17th October 2016, 05:08

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

"should" be fixed now. Also pulled some changes from DCSS. Zot teleport disruption, Fedhas quality of life fixes, lesser beckoning nerf, and a couple of other minor things.
Remove spell hunger.

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VeryAngryFelid

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Post Monday, 17th October 2016, 12:37

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Confirmed, it works for me.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
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Post Monday, 17th October 2016, 16:59

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Hellmonk, any way you could change dragons to drop hides on death instead of requiring butchering? Its easy to forget skinning for hides now that you never have to butcher for meat

Really enjoying the fork as usual, btw.
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