[proclick] new fork, hellcrawl


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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 8th December 2017, 19:46

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Hellmonk: So this might be somewhat selfishly motivated as it would make my life radically easier, but how would you feel about including statue form in the book of changes? Make transmuters great again! I'd like to be able to play octopodes without having to throw half of them away since they get too deep without yet finding AC.

bel

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Post Saturday, 9th December 2017, 06:51

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Nice try. :P

I don't think any starting book contains lvl 6 spells.

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Post Tuesday, 12th December 2017, 00:50

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

New update
  • Several minor permabuff nerfs:
    • Song of slaying passively makes melee attacks louder
    • Spectral weapon has a brief (30-70aut) cooldown after it disappears before it can be resummoned. No, you can't game the timeout by releasing and recasting the spell.
    • Ozo's gives 1 less AC at all power levels
    • Cigotuvi's has a lower max AC cap and gains AC/SH more slowly. The spell is probably moving to level 6 in the next update, at which point I might revert this change.
  • WJC exists.
  • Nemelex is back again:
    • Stack five is gone
    • Gift timeout is a little less (ie you get more gifts) compared to previous hellcrawl nemelex
    • Card power level check reworked so that it makes sense. I *think* getting level 2 card power was impossible before.
    • Pentagram card is less strong, "only" giving you a friendly 1 instead of a panlord.
    • Storm card casts lightning bolt and sometimes summons ball lightnings. Still dangerous, probably less dumb than the big cloud ring thing that it did before.
    • Famine card reworked and inserted into the deck of escape. Power dependent chance to briefly paralyze, otherwise power dependent chance to make insane (if possible) otherwise inflict weakness, rolled independently for every enemy in line of sight.
    • Shaft card is removed.
    • Weapons summoned by the dance card updated to make sense with hellcrawl weapon progression.
    • Velocity card is always swiftness on all allies (but not you) at power 0, rather than the very bad sometimes slow yourself/haste enemies thing it used to do.
  • Spriggans are back to fast movement 3
  • Magical staves now take up the shield slot rather than the weapon slot. I'll be pleasantly surprised if this doesn't break anything.
  • Redesigned IE book: hibernation instead of throw frost and metabolic englaciation instead of summon ice beast. No longer has 3 level 4 spells and now has significant incentive to use hexes.
  • The NE book now contains sublimation of blood.
  • Jiyva piety gain is faster. Jiyva no longer gets mad if you kill jellies while under penance, as this led to incredibly dumb gameplay where you pretty much had to abandon.
  • Huge Chei buff: Chei no longer gets angry about quickblades
  • Shatter's damage formula is simpler. It always deals 1,3,or 6 dice of damage. The most significant effects are that it now does 1 die of damage to insubstantial monsters and no longer gets a bonus against icy ones.
  • Petrified/Petrifying status no longer provides damage reduction. This simultaneously makes petrify a more dangerous status and buffs the petrify spell.
  • Doom/Antiscumming clock applies everywhere except abyss in normal difficulty. Please do not xomscum thank you in advance.
  • Potions of resistance provide rN+ and MR+ in addition to the other resistances.
  • Stat rings are all +5. Slaying, EV, and AC rings still have two levels since +3 rings of those types are actually useful.
  • Distortion weapons no longer have instant/delayed teleportation effects. Other distortion effects are unchanged.
  • Took out a couple of throwable types (still need to do more ranged combat reform tbh), so steel ammo and poisoned javelins should no longer generate.
  • Speedrun difficulty is a bit more punishing wrt turncount but gives an extra 1.5x base mp regen to help out spellcastery builds.
  • Shock serpents no longer do a billion retaliation damage when you attack them.
  • Contamination displays a numeric value. Also I merged the extra contam sublevel that got added like a year ago.
  • Subtractor snake melee damage is a little less convoluted, with just the acid attack flavor instead of acid/draining/strong poison.

Sorry about the delay, I've been kind of lazy about getting the game updated. CPO is going to stay an update behind until I can talk to chequers. I'll put a zip file up on github within a day or two. This will be the last update for 2017 barring any serious bugs; the DCSS tourney is coming up early January and hellcrawl will probably get taken off of cbro during that time. I will try to get a big release together during the next few weeks and update again after the tournament ends.

Speaking of the tournament, my team has at least one slot open so if anyone wants to poopsock it and bang out a dozen wins talk to me or mibe on IRC.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 12th December 2017, 02:09

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Hellmonk wrote:[*]Huge Chei buff: Chei no longer gets angry about quickblades
[*]Shatter's damage formula is simpler. It always deals 1,3,or 6 dice of damage. The most significant effects are that it now does 1 die of damage to insubstantial monsters and no longer gets a bonus against icy ones.
[*]Stat rings are all +5. Slaying, EV, and AC rings still have two levels since +3 rings of those types are actually useful.

I assume the huge chei buff part is tongue in cheek. I suppose it is a buff in the technical sense, I'm going to have to try to come up with some reason to use quickblades on a chei character now. I guess vine stalkers of chei could use them? Hmmm.

Appreciate the shatter damage formula being simpler part, I kind of wonder if it wouldn't be better off just doing the normal (I think that's the 3 dice) amount to everything. Probably a lot less flavorful, but I like straightforward things. This may be too simple, though. Bonus points: Be the first person to kill an orb of fire with shatter. Double bonus points: Deal no damage to it other than with shatter (no softening with other things).

Stat rings: Wasn't this already the case? I was playing on whatever was on LLD about a week ago, and I only saw +5 stats, almost all +3 prot/evasion, although I later did find an ac+6 containing randart. Is it possible for +6 to generate early, or are they only in loot vaults? That's the only place I saw them, but my sample size is rather small...

bel

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Post Tuesday, 12th December 2017, 04:58

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Hellmonk wrote:Magical staves now take up the shield slot rather than the weapon slot.

Why?

Also, does this mean that you can dual-wield a staff of fire with a weapon?

Hellmonk wrote:Storm card casts lightning bolt and sometimes summons ball lightnings. Still dangerous, probably less dumb than the big cloud ring thing that it did before.

Not a good idea. Ball lightning can kill the player very easily, so it would no longer be worth it to blind-draw cards. If you don't like the cloud ring stuff it used to do earlier, just remove it. I didn't have any problems with how it worked earlier, except that it made a lot of noise (this part is unchanged, so it doesn't matter).

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Post Wednesday, 13th December 2017, 18:41

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

I won't be around til after Christmas, so no update until then sorry!
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Post Wednesday, 13th December 2017, 18:46

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

I am curious about how staves will work out. I like the idea a lot and it should avoid some silliness, like having to swap each time you meet popcorn with a mage; however, because of the resists, it can also mean wild swapping.
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Post Thursday, 14th December 2017, 02:54

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Pushing a staves related bugfix as soon as I can find someone on irc to update cbro. Until then there will be some instability and you'll likely see crashes in V:3.

Staves change is primarily to enforce a bigger tradeoff between spellpower and defenses/melee damage, though reducing swapping is nice I guess.

Will address storm card again next update, probably change back to air elementals (maybe give the entire old effect + lightning bolt?). Good call bel, I was tunneled on high level/high power effectiveness and didn't properly consider the "I accidentally got a power 1 storm card and oneshot myself on D:6" case.

bel

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Post Thursday, 14th December 2017, 05:57

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Hellmonk wrote:Staves change is primarily to enforce a bigger tradeoff between spellpower and defenses/melee damage, though reducing swapping is nice I guess.

I am not sure what this means in practice. Right now, I mostly use a magical staff on mage-type characters, who wear a buckler on the other hand (shields are usually too expensive to train). So what would it mean for this character? It has to dual wield a magical staff? Ok, but these characters are typically frail, do most of their damage at range and don't do much melee damage anyway, so they would much rather have a bit more protection than more melee damage.

I am not sure what playstyle this change is meant to encourage, and what was wrong with the old one.

bel

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Post Monday, 18th December 2017, 13:50

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Spellcasting penalties of Spider Form and Blade Hands no longer apply to form spells.

Interaction of blade hands with buffs is rather bad. For instance, I have regen on, then I cast blade hands, and my regen spellcost increases drastically, drains all my MP and dispels all buffs (including blade hands). So I have to end regen first, then cast blade hands.

Perhaps apply the "no penalty" criterion to all buffs. Or maybe just remove the spellcasting penalty altogether from blade hands. It's not clear to me what it's for, anyway. Do many conjurer types run around with blade hands?

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Post Monday, 18th December 2017, 17:12

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Moreover, would it be bad game design if conjurer types ran around with blade hands?

bel

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Post Wednesday, 20th December 2017, 09:23

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Btw, I do not like !agility removal (not sure why it was removed). Perhaps let !augmentation give agility as well? Though I think agility works better separately.

bel

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Post Thursday, 21st December 2017, 07:18

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

bel wrote:
Hellmonk wrote:Staves change is primarily to enforce a bigger tradeoff between spellpower and defenses/melee damage, though reducing swapping is nice I guess.

I am not sure what this means in practice. Right now, I mostly use a magical staff on mage-type characters, who wear a buckler on the other hand (shields are usually too expensive to train). So what would it mean for this character? It has to dual wield a magical staff? Ok, but these characters are typically frail, do most of their damage at range and don't do much melee damage anyway, so they would much rather have a bit more protection than more melee damage.

I am not sure what playstyle this change is meant to encourage, and what was wrong with the old one.

Ok, after some wizmode testing, I understand that one doesn't dual-wield the staff, and it is impossible to melee with it. Instead, one wears it as an enhancer in the shield slot.

Several comments:
  • Enhancer staff melee used to be very respectable. See this post for some calculations.
  • If things remain this way, perhaps the staff should be renamed to something else, since training "maces and staves" doesn't help in increasing melee damage from the staff.
  • It is a strange situation, because enhancer rings exist, which provide easy swapping, but staves are not easily swappable.
  • There is indeed a straight tradeoff between more spellpower and more protection. That part is fine, though I have no idea what was wrong with the old playstyle, and why it needed change.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 21st December 2017, 07:23

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Probably enhancer rings should be made non-swappable too. One thing which I hated about hybrids is that they use enhancer ring to cast spells at distance and then switch to ring of slaying/AC when out of MP to melee a monster, and then switch back to enhancer ring for next fight.
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bel

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Post Friday, 22nd December 2017, 02:59

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Slouch damage isn't displayed.

bel

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Post Friday, 22nd December 2017, 07:46

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Rename mephitic cloud to memetic cloud.

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Post Friday, 22nd December 2017, 21:23

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

bel wrote:Rename mephitic cloud to memetic cloud.


dank cloud

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Post Saturday, 13th January 2018, 20:01

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Is hellcrawl gone from berotato?

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Post Sunday, 14th January 2018, 00:26

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

yes, all experimental branches are disabled for the duration of the tournament

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Post Sunday, 14th January 2018, 03:17

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Yeah, cbro always takes down experimentals for the tourney. Hellcrawl will return to cbro with a new update some time shortly after the tourney ends. Until then, you can play online on cpo or lld.

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Post Sunday, 14th January 2018, 03:50

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Hellmonk wrote:Yeah, cbro always takes down experimentals for the tourney. Hellcrawl will return to cbro with a new update some time shortly after the tourney ends. Until then, you can play online on cpo or lld.


Bah, playing normal crawl sucks and is annoying I had to do a 9-rune OpFi of Qazlal win on laggy CPO instead.

What is up with the mutagenic shafts btw?

bel

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Post Sunday, 14th January 2018, 13:27

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

You can play offline if you're bothered about lag.

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Post Sunday, 14th January 2018, 17:36

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

bel wrote:You can play offline if you're bothered about lag.


I took a look at doing that but it seemed like it might require a small amount of work.

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Post Monday, 15th January 2018, 04:40

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Mutagenic shafts are fun, please reduce the number of normal staircases so I have to use them more (in speedrun mode).

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Post Friday, 19th January 2018, 21:06

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Just wanted to say that I've given Hellcrawl a try, and it's really fun to play with perma-buffs and demonspawn.(Along with no stairs/food :D)

From reading past posts, Sif + Makhleb seem to be the top-tier gods in this fork(especially with the changed orb run) but are the other ones reasonably easy to win for a newbie hellcrawl player?

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Post Friday, 19th January 2018, 23:44

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

I'm not sure why Sif would be top tier, although I guess the mana restore might be more useful when you can't go upstairs to regenerate mana. Makhleb has always been a top tier god in crawl, and I don't think hellcrawl changes that.

Really though I'd say that any god is still viable in hellcrawl. I know people have even done Qazlal runs, although personally I'd say it's probably the one who comes out the worst with stair removal. For more details on it you'll probably want to track down someone who's played/won it before.

I've only won hellcrawl once (and then died trying to do a "branchless" DUZH run a few times), and I used Chei. Chei remains excellent, as always, and is the one true god of all forms of crawl.

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Post Saturday, 20th January 2018, 05:14

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Vajrapani wrote:Just wanted to say that I've given Hellcrawl a try, and it's really fun to play with perma-buffs and demonspawn.(Along with no stairs/food :D)

From reading past posts, Sif + Makhleb seem to be the top-tier gods in this fork(especially with the changed orb run) but are the other ones reasonably easy to win for a newbie hellcrawl player?


-Sif is good because a) she has Ash's skill boosts for spellcasting and b) the SP regen/+cast helps a lot when you have low max MP due to perma buffs. Sif is one of the gods that is esepcially helpful for branchless runs since the skill boosts make you mature earlier and the spellbooks can sometimes give you a key spell nice and early

-Mahk is good for the same reason as normal crawl and hellfire is good

-Qaz gives much more SH in HC (about +20) and does a good but more damage for less piety. Oddly no stair dancing is not as bad for qaz because any character can potentially run into a really bad zone in and Qaz has a solution for any problem; annihilate everything. It requires a very serious Invo investment but it can work quite well. If you know how to play Qaz I actually think its one of the easier runs.

-Oka is pretty good. Heroism skill boost help out nice and early and relieve some XP burden and since items are rarer in HC the gifts can turn out nicely. Having heroism means you can train spell schools more intensely so Oka is something you will see skalds take fairly often.

-Gozag can also be pretty useful and since food is not an issue less of a pain in the ass.

Oka and Gozag used to be top tier but I think that is less so now, I would say in general a skald-like Oka is better than a Trog guy. Trog is fine but Skalds work out pretty well in HC and Oka abilities really fits with the pared down nature of HC. So overall I would say Trog is de-emphaiszed in comparison to normal crawl

Most of the other gods are fairly similar to normal crawl for the most part but gods that take a long time to really get going or have effects that are not that useful until later etc, like Zin, tend to be used very little in Hellcrawl. Certain gods are obviously much more useful for a 9 rune game (i.e. shining one) than a branchless run.

Certain Gods, like Chei, are much worse than normal crawl in a relative sense simply because Haste exists as a perma-buff. Chei will perform similar to normal crawl but compared to Sif where you can permanently move 3 times as fast and attack/cast 1.5 times faster and get a decent boost to Charms and highly probably get the spellbook for it as well and it comes out much worse in comparison. Additionally Sif directly helps with the downside of perm-buffs by giving MP regen. A skald of Sif is safer and does more damage than a Skald of Chei simply because of Haste and the fact that the better stats just won't make up for the difference especially since you get skill boosts. In Hellcrawl even on a 9 rune run you are not gonna max out skills so skill boosts like Sif or Oka are always useful.

Zin is not really any worse in HC but its hard to make it work because you just get very little leverage for a lot of the game. Even if sanctuary is a very tempting skill to have you need more. I have tried to make Zin work a few times and I know a couple other good players (i.e. they have wins) and we were all underwhelmed even though a couple Zin features are tempting. He just doesn't work out well really. And while you need a lot of in invocations for Zin, unlike Qaz the pay off on the invo is not that straight forward. Qaz is still quite useful at 15 invo, but Zin is only kind of nice at 15 and is not really gonna make you perform that much better.

Keep in mind that strats like going Elvy or SO and then switching to Zin are not really viable in HC due to length of game and lack of ability to go back to an altar.

On the other hand I would say Chei really needs a buff because his balancing detriment of no speed increases is much much more penalizing in HC. I suppose you could make the stats go even higher, but i am not sure that is the best answer.

Hellcrawl itself is actually a little easier in the early levels since there are no ghosts and needles do not require blowguns (finding early curare is not that uncommon and is immediately useful unlike normal crawl). So gods like fedhas that people like in normal crawl for immediate reliable survivability are not as favored although there is nothing wrong with them per se. At the same time you can get gods earlier (I would say by d4 is average and relatively often on d2). So you can often get a God to a fairly decent midpoint by the time you start getting truly chellenged (like around d9 or so).

I am not sure about nemelex Hellmonk has been fiddling around with him a lot.

bel

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Post Saturday, 20th January 2018, 06:48

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

severen wrote:Certain Gods, like Chei, are much worse than normal crawl in a relative sense simply because Haste exists as a perma-buff. Chei will perform similar to normal crawl but compared to Sif where you can permanently move 3 times as fast and attack/cast 1.5 times faster and get a decent boost to Charms and highly probably get the spellbook for it as well and it comes out much worse in comparison. Additionally Sif directly helps with the downside of perm-buffs by giving MP regen. A skald of Sif is safer and does more damage than a Skald of Chei simply because of Haste and the fact that the better stats just won't make up for the difference especially since you get skill boosts. In Hellcrawl even on a 9 rune run you are not gonna max out skills so skill boosts like Sif or Oka are always useful.

One must be careful of equating "ease of use" with "power". Permabuffs are mostly for "ease of use" and not "power". Also, Haste is lvl 9 in Hellcrawl, so it's much harder to get than old Haste. I basically never get it unless I'm playing a MfSk or something.

Chei is about as good in Hellcrawl as in normal Crawl. Namely, not great, but some people like its unique playstyle.

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Post Saturday, 20th January 2018, 19:07

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Here's my thoughts on the current status of gods in hellcrawl while I take a little break from the tourney.

Chei: Not changed a whole lot, but mp costs for the abilities were reduced (also you can use a quickblade for the ultimate cheistabbing experience). The people who like it seem to still like it and the rest of us still think it's really bad. I probably won't adjust much in the future since it's already good for the people who like to play it and it would take an insane buff for us cheihaters to think it's viable.

Dith: Buffed somewhat by picking up ash's monster detection, also has slower piety decay and doesn't forbid fire. Shadow form is extremely good for hellcrawl orbrun since it provides torment immunity and halves incoming damage from all sources. I think dith is mostly fine atm but probably on the weak end early just like in mainline dcss.

Ely: Virtually unchanged and in need of work at least wrt pacify not displaying success chance. Pacify is still an excellent ability that stays relevant all game if you have a lot of invocations skill, but getting a lot of invocations skill is harder since the exp curve is tighter. Greater healing and lifesaving are also good, of course. People don't seem to like playing ely for whatever reason but I'm not convinced it's because ely is weak.

Gozag: Used to be top tier but got nerfed by making potion petition and call merchant more expensive. Still good imo and does not really fall off. You can bribe the orbrun if you have enough gold, or potion petition to spam haste your whole way through it. I plan to eventually fix shops so you can buy remotely, but I still need to work out the technical side of that.

Hep: Basically unchanged from mainline. I still plan on merging the permanent ally part of hep with Yred's enslave soul and keeping the transference ability to combine Yred/Hep into one thing that is good instead of two things that are awkward/bad.

Jiyva: It's actually an option now but also the things that made J "good" early are gone because you don't get to invoke jellies to kill monsters or have them eat giant stacks of ammunition and restore hp/mp on demand. Also the piety curve is not insanely busted, which is a pretty big nerf. Could probably use some further work; I think the damage shaving passive makes sense and the mutations are still good, but the stat shuffling doesn't work out very well in practice. Slimify should probably work on demons and all the other things it currently doesn't work on especially since it is not as spammable anymore.

Lugonu: Virtually unchanged. It's still rarely an option, but is still good once it gets going and of course worth taking if you get abyssed very early. Not sure what the long term direction for Lugonu is yet.

Kiku: Going corpseless was a pretty big nerf I think. Not sure how strong the replacement ability actually is but it's certainly worse than corpse drop. Still provides a whole bunch of guaranteed good spells though, and gifts them earlier than sif will. Maybe should provide some other kind of necromancy support but I don't have any particular ideas for this atm.

Makhleb: Heal on kills and lesser servant got nerfed in exchange for replacing major destruction with hurl damnation. Still extremely good and the heal on kill is still better than tso's. Could stand to come down a little bit I think.

Nemelex: I hate playing nemelex. No idea how strong it is right now. I'm trusting the people who like nemelex to tell me if anything is super busted or garbage or whatever. If anyone has good, unique card ideas feel free to send them my way and maybe get them included.

Okawaru: Used to be overpowered because of the way the piety gain worked, then the abilities got more expensive and piety decay got faster, then heroism became a passive. I think Oka is in a pretty good spot now. Any further adjustment will probably be to piety gain or finesse cost.

Qazlal: There's some disagreement over whether qazlal is decent or terrible power-wise. Not being able to stairdance is really bad, but upheaval and disaster area are significantly stronger and you get more than twice as much free SH. The cloud shit is kind of questionable design and could probably use a rework.

Ru: Basically unchanged other than some sacrifices getting adjusted where they interacted with other changes. Apocalypse is still an insanely strong ability. I don't have a long term plan for Ru at the moment.

Sif: I think sif is in a good spot right now. It takes a little while to come online but provides a lot of free exp for spell schools, plus other things that spellcasting characters want. I have long-term plans to do "something" about spell amnesia, at which point Sif will probably lose that ability, but that's like the least relevant part of Sif.

Trog: Got nerfed a lot. Berserk still wrecks the earlygame though, and BiA is still very good later. I don't have immediate plans to change trog.

Uskayaw: Basically unchanged. I imagine that it's good on the types of characters where it's good in mainline. I haven't looked at how the piety gain actually works and I have a feeling that I'll want to change it when I do.

Vehumet: spell gifts are better early on the kinds of characters that would consider taking Veh, also guarantees 3 level 9s instead of maybe level 8s. I feel like Vehumet is limited to a very specific playstyle and isn't all that much better at supporting that style than Sif. Probably need to work/rework/add some passives to make Veh more compelling.

WJC: Just added, identical to 0.21 to my knowledge. Need more feedback before I adjust anything. Heavenly storm seems like it would be very good for zot floors and orbrun.

Xom: It's xom.

Yred: You can't hit a critical mass of overpowered allies as early, so it's not as good. Just like mainline DCSS, all of your allies will die in zot. As I said, I'm expecting to merge some features of Hep into Yred in the nearish future.

Zin: Piety curve is weird and awkward and you need a lot of invo for recite to do anything lategame, sanctuary success rate, etc. Sanctuary is still basically press ad to not die. I think the ability set is mostly ok aside from recite's weird list of effects that depends on what type of monster you're reciting to. I'll probably change zin piety at some point.

TSO: Much like mainline DCSS, TSO is kind of garbage for a long time. I don't like where TSO is at the moment but I don't have a specific plan to fix it.

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 179

Joined: Saturday, 29th October 2016, 17:41

Post Sunday, 21st January 2018, 02:06

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

bel wrote:
severen wrote:Certain Gods, like Chei, are much worse than normal crawl in a relative sense simply because Haste exists as a perma-buff. Chei will perform similar to normal crawl but compared to Sif where you can permanently move 3 times as fast and attack/cast 1.5 times faster and get a decent boost to Charms and highly probably get the spellbook for it as well and it comes out much worse in comparison. Additionally Sif directly helps with the downside of perm-buffs by giving MP regen. A skald of Sif is safer and does more damage than a Skald of Chei simply because of Haste and the fact that the better stats just won't make up for the difference especially since you get skill boosts. In Hellcrawl even on a 9 rune run you are not gonna max out skills so skill boosts like Sif or Oka are always useful.

One must be careful of equating "ease of use" with "power". Permabuffs are mostly for "ease of use" and not "power". Also, Haste is lvl 9 in Hellcrawl, so it's much harder to get than old Haste. I basically never get it unless I'm playing a MfSk or something.

Chei is about as good in Hellcrawl as in normal Crawl. Namely, not great, but some people like its unique playstyle.


I am not sure I understand your point, either that or it is flawed or we simply are at a very large disagreement about Haste in HC. Haste no longer exists in normal crawl as anything other than a potion. I have played multiple games in HC where I had haste through all of Zot and the orb run. I simply do not think perma-haste in HC is in anyway roughly similiar to the haste potions in normal crawl. That just seems utterly preposterous to me.

Secondly there are two gods who will allow you to cast level 9 spells significantly easier than other gods; Sif(skill) and Chei(int). Haste is a major goal for people who doing a run with major spellcasting. Chei specifically is a god that lends itself to being a caster for various reasons and works well as a melee/casting hybrid. When you use Chei as any kind of casting style character you are at a serious relative disadvantage in the later game, and the later of HC actually kills a lot more people than normal crawl.

I don't really care. I have won both normal crawl and hellcrawl multiple times as Chei and the conclusion I have come to is I don't like top play Chei, not because he is weak, but just because of the way the slow move speed forces you to play kind of annoys me. You could make Chei worse and it wouldn't affect me.

Haste is objectively more powerful in Hellcrawl and while its harder to get online I have personally done so on 4 wins one of which was a Branchless OpFi of Sif. I started as a Fighter and still got it online on Zot 4. Sure that is late but having it for the orb run and the Zot5 lungs is one of the things I want for the most. A DE of Sif can get it online much much earlier (although I think DE 4 charms is maybe out of hand).

Granted I didn't use Haste at all on my last win as Qazlal because I needed to invest in Invocations, but qaz gives you other ways to deal with stuff. Haste isn't the be all end all by any means but the difference isn't "ease of use". If we were talking about Statue Form I would agree (other than a few corner cases I feel are not that important like dispels). But the haste effect in normal crawl is extremely limited so it is a radically different case than most other perma-buffs.

bel

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1591

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05

Post Sunday, 21st January 2018, 06:33

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

To clarify, I said "old Haste", that is, when Haste used to be a lvl 6 spell in DCSS.

There are many ways to win Hellcrawl. You say you often learn Haste and have many wins. I say I almost never learn Haste and have many wins. Both are correct. The point I am making is that having a permabuff Haste is not necessary to win (and I doubt it's the best strategy in most cases). Training Charms for a long time for a lvl 9 spell (which likely also means lighter body armour) is not what a typical character needs. So, one should not be looking at spell Haste as a major factor for Chei. Chei also blocks potion haste, which is likely to be much more important for most characters at most points in the game.

Therefore, Chei is not much worse or better (relative to other Gods) than normal DCSS.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4941

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Yesterday, 20:47

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

I didn't realize Sif had skill boosts for magic schools, so that explains a lot of why Sif is considered powerful. I'll probably try it out at some point, although really the recent posts here made me want to try Qazlal more than anything.
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