[proclick] new fork, hellcrawl


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Post Wednesday, 28th September 2016, 20:46

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Fwiw I do think that most starting books have significant differences amongst them. This is one area where Crawl has improved a lot over the years, in fact.

However, "blasters" start to feel really similar as soon as you can rely on some spells from an appropriate second-tier book. Generally in or just after Lair/Orc. Granted, this is the time a lot of characters start to feel similar to each other, but I do think the similarity of spells outside of each distinct starting kit contributes to that problem.

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Post Sunday, 2nd October 2016, 22:42

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

HELLCRAWL CHANGELOG OCTOBER 2, 2016:
Image
COMING SOON TO CPO
Remove spell hunger.

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Post Monday, 3rd October 2016, 14:27

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Be sure to bump when CPO updates. I have a yearning for foodless crawl deep in my soul.
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Post Monday, 3rd October 2016, 14:32

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Hellmonk wrote:HELLCRAWL CHANGELOG OCTOBER 2, 2016:
Image
COMING SOON TO CPO


That would make a good splash screen.

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Post Monday, 3rd October 2016, 23:35

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

goodcoolguy wrote:Be sure to bump when CPO updates. I have a yearning for foodless crawl deep in my soul.

bump

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Post Monday, 3rd October 2016, 23:36

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Should be updated now. I guess I can post the actual changelog.
  • You can't eat.
  • You can't get hungrier or more full.
  • Butchering corpses doesn't produce chunks. It should produce hides as normal. I will probably come back and try to make hides drop automatically at a later date.
  • Food shouldn't generate, except fruit (only useful with Fedhas) and possibly some chunks from vaults or from using iood/disintegration (completely useless). The items still technically exist within the code but should not actually show up. If you see other types of food, I probably missed a .des file.
  • Shifted a bunch of the food item generation weight into ammo. Ammo stacks are smaller to compensate.
  • You can't acquire food. Major Fedhas nerf tbh.
  • Food shops should not generate. This is a player buff since you can get a useful shop instead. Oh well.
  • Amulet of the gourmand should no longer exist. This is also a player buff since you're slightly more likely to get a non-garbage amulet.
  • Vampiric weapons can be swapped freely (TODO: nerf vampiric weapons).
  • The spell screen no longer shows spell hunger.
  • Removed potion of blood.
  • Ghouls take much longer to rot. An actual ghoul fix/removal will have to wait, this should keep them playable for now.
  • Vampires are stuck in their normal satiation state. You can still batform. I will try to fix vampires at some point. I think most people prefer the near bloodless stealthy vampire.
  • Trog piety decay is faster.

There are probably a few things left to address. If you notice any food-related stuff that needs removal or a fix, let me know. I didn't mess with many of the descriptions or flavor texts; if any of those urgently need changing I can work on that too. The plan for the next couple weeks is to cherrypick some of the recent good changes from regular crawl and start hacking away at consumable reform. I might reduce the upper turn count limit to a value more likely to prevent hardcore scumming, like 150k-200k turns.
Remove spell hunger.

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Post Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 04:45

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

so, just to doublecheck, if we play hellcrawl we can now do absurd xomscumming with all races instead of just mucks?

intriguing

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Post Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 11:19

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Rolling troll monks at the moment and the lack of chopping/eating has reduced my # of keys spammed from 5 to 3 (o, tab and 5) Nice work hellmonk.

Im aiming to ascend right now, but the lack of xp in midgame is hard as balls. Not sure if thats because the games objectively hard or i just keep making poor skilling decisions due to the glut of xp in normal crawl. Im probably also overestimating how tough my pc is relative to all the normally post lair content monsters. I need a lot more practice, what I can say is that good, streamlined skilling has like 10x the impact in hellcrawl than in vanilla.

The lack of food definitely makes itself felt in hellcrawl, the casters i was running pre patch that didnt get a food shoppe kept running dangerously close to no perma food and one even starved iirc.

No complaints, im still enjoying this much more than normal crawl. a 3 rune win would feel like a real achievement in this fork.
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Post Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 17:06

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

goodcoolguy wrote:e: Some particular offenders: Sky beasts (should be removed entirely).

I agree with your post except this. I'd prefer Sky beasts stick around. They do electric damage at a time when rElec is usually scarce, they go invis when Sinv is usually scarce, and they leave a mutagenic corpse fairly early in the dungeon. All of those are not something another similar HD monster does.
But if you are going to remove them, I'd kindly ask you replace them with either an Ugly Thing or something else that leaves a mutagenic corpse.

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I use git shell on windows and I've never had a problem, even with my own branches (unless I dun fugged up a semicolon somewhere)
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and into wrote:My list of changes:
+ Remove wands of hasting, heal wounds, teleportation; increase generation of potions of speed

How about instead of removing wand of teleport, it gets changed to Teleport Other? (Targeting requires LoS)

DracheReborn wrote:Well, new FR for Hellmonk. Reduce weapon types :D

Just a few changes, don't need to completely remove them:
Sblades: Stab bonus
Lblades: Riposte
Axes: Cleave
Polearms: Reach
+ Staves: Gives small amount of SH (start with a buckler's worth, scale slightly with Staves skill)
+ M&F: small chance to stun on hit (delays monster action by half a turn or something)

Hellmonk wrote:Should be updated now. I guess I can post the actual changelog.
[*]Amulet of the gourmand should no longer exist. This is also a player buff since you're slightly more likely to get a non-garbage amulet.

I haven't looked at the code, but did you just remove the amulet or give it a place-holder? Because if you just straight removed it, iirc it'll also cause any randarts with Gourmand as a base item to mess up
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Post Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 17:18

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

re: Sky beasts, melee only intermittent invisibility just encourages kiting and pillar dancing. It's quite bad. Damage flavor doesn't matter, especially if it's almost surely irresistible.
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Post Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 19:51

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

I always considered Sky beasts great teaching tools for kiting. Yes they're trivial for experts but that's ok.

My fr: bump up mut potion weight slightly now you can't eat chunks

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Post Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 23:02

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

chequers wrote:I always considered Sky beasts great teaching tools for kiting. Yes they're trivial for experts but that's ok.
"Assume the user is so stupid they can't tell their head from their ass" is a good rule to follow sometimes in places like UI design, but I hardly think it belongs here. What player makes it to D:2 without figuring out that the movement keys can move your character away from monsters? All sky beasts do is take forever to kill and make it extra-obvious that monster invisibility is pure interface screw, and orc wizards are already enough to show that.

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Post Tuesday, 4th October 2016, 23:53

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

sky beasts create rainclouds/puddles on you when they hit you, how's that? still trivial since walking onto ground from shallow water takes normal time, but if that's changed?

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Post Wednesday, 5th October 2016, 01:06

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

duvessa wrote:What player makes it to D:2 without figuring out that the movement keys can move your character away from monsters?

Tab and o can move your character away from monsters?!

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Post Wednesday, 5th October 2016, 01:15

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

I feel like rune lock was a good thing. I lost 40% HP to Nikola on Snake 1 near entry and since I didn't have rElec or potion of resistance I entered Vaults 1 which was probably a bit easier than even Snake 1.
I like how convenient no hunger made the game for caster, being able to spam fireballs and lightning bolts is very fun.
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Post Wednesday, 5th October 2016, 02:44

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

I just finished a game. It was pretty good, the lack of XP makes the midgame much more interesting. I think Depths is still a bit of a victory lap, but I was also a MiGl with CPA so for a weaker character this shouldn't be the case. There might be too little xp for a weak character like a Mummy, though.

Also, not having to eat is a huge improvement and will probably be the best change ever made since removing item destruction back in 0.15 were it to ever be implemented in actual Crawl.
remove food

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Post Wednesday, 5th October 2016, 04:05

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Just started a game. It feels really good not to have to eat ever. I thought food was kind of lame but didn't think removing it would be that big a deal but apparently those frequent jarring food breaks hurt the game's flow more than I thought.

it's also very good to have to think a bit about consumables and character building in the floors "before lair" because usually I'm just like trying to get their so I can have all that free XP which turns many games into a snowball.
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Post Wednesday, 5th October 2016, 04:53

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

This fork conclusively proves that removing hunger is incredibly good and should be done in dcss immediately. It's like, jarringly good.
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Post Wednesday, 5th October 2016, 05:38

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Realtalk: how hard would it be to transfer the changes in this fork that remove food over to main crawl?

Seconding that ammo drops ought to get cut down on. hobgoblin with sling carrying 150 rocks? 53 needles? yowza

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Post Wednesday, 5th October 2016, 05:52

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Shard1697 wrote:Realtalk: how hard would it be to transfer the changes in this fork that remove food over to main crawl?

Seconding that ammo drops ought to get cut down on. hobgoblin with sling carrying 150 rocks? 53 needles? yowza

The food removal code isn't really release quality. I did everything in the laziest possible way, so there are a bunch of functions that prematurely return rather than being removed completely, etc. Probably can't be picked up by the devteam as-is.

I'm fine with making further ammo quantity changes, but it'd be helpful to get some feedback from ranged-primary runs. I think you're overestimating how often ammo mulches in crawl. Stone mulch rate is 1/8 and needle mulch rate is 1/12, so those are equivalent uses to approximately 18.75 stones and 4.4 needles (with the caveats that you won't run out as quickly and have to pick up your shots again within a single combat and that there's no variance in the number of shots you might get).
Remove spell hunger.

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Post Wednesday, 5th October 2016, 09:39

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Hellmonk wrote:I'm fine with making further ammo quantity changes, but it'd be helpful to get some feedback from ranged-primary runs. I think you're overestimating how often ammo mulches in crawl. Stone mulch rate is 1/8 and needle mulch rate is 1/12, so those are equivalent uses to approximately 18.75 stones and 4.4 needles (with the caveats that you won't run out as quickly and have to pick up your shots again within a single combat and that there's no variance in the number of shots you might get).


I haven't tried ranged character yet in hellcrawl, but something should be done with Sandblast and Sticks to Snakes. Those are kind of ridiculous right now.

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Post Wednesday, 5th October 2016, 11:39

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

I tried primary ranged. I don't think there's a problem with the quantity of ammo for that purpose. I'm skeptical about whether it makes any difference for s2s and sandblast, since you certainly have enough ammo in vanilla to get you through the early game without being significantly more conservative than mp constraints demand.
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Post Wednesday, 5th October 2016, 11:57

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

No experience with s2s, but in normal DCSS many of my EE run low on stones in early dungeon unless they spawn a lot
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

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Post Wednesday, 5th October 2016, 12:26

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Sandblast should just use 8 stones for each zap.
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Post Wednesday, 5th October 2016, 12:31

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

More stones/arrows per cast makes sense.
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Post Wednesday, 5th October 2016, 12:51

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Alternative proposal: sandblast and s2s don't use ammo, lower damage/duration to compensate

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Post Wednesday, 5th October 2016, 13:46

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Sandblast already works without ammo and lower damage for s2s won't change much IMHO, they still are great los blockers and poisonous monsters.
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Post Wednesday, 5th October 2016, 13:57

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Lower duration is always a bad idea in this game.
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Post Wednesday, 5th October 2016, 13:59

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Right, everyone loves 7 turns paralysis.
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Post Friday, 7th October 2016, 08:32

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Been playing this a bit more. The dungeon spawns seem to be improving a lot. Got d:7 (maybe 6, not sure) orc high priest, many more centaurs, cyclopses, centaur warriors. Far fewer garbage spawns. The early high tier orcs are very good. Also ran into a lot of snails in late dungeon, which worked well with open layouts and ranged attackers. I don't know if it was just this particular run, but I finished dungeon at xl 15, where it usually seems like xl 14 or less. In any case, good progress. Thick. Solid. Tight.
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Post Friday, 7th October 2016, 09:00

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Sexy description there.

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Post Saturday, 8th October 2016, 12:24

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Ammo amount seems ok, I am playing FoHu and I had to save bolts before Oka started gifting them. Pretty similar to vanilla
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Post Saturday, 8th October 2016, 21:58

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

More feedback after playing KoEn.
No ammo means I can always close a door even if I am attacked by centaurs.
No hunger and Ru means I can cast invisibility whenever I want.
Stone Giant in Orc and 58% chance to get paralyzed (Ogre Magi in both Orc and late Dungeon) make playing EV-based species with low HP feel like gambling.
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Post Monday, 10th October 2016, 02:22

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Hellcrawl October 9 update:
Not anything as major as food removal this time, sadly. Just some minor changes and a few things pulled from trunk.
  • Pulled through some minor trunk changes: weak dragons are gone from zot, lesser beckoning exists, Qazlal gives global cloud immunity, snapping turtles don't withdraw.
  • Elemental force creates friendly elementals from any cloud.
  • The strong version of sandblast consumes 8 stones. Earth elementalist starting stone count is increased to compensate.
  • Sticks to snakes consumes 8 arrows per snake. Transmuters start with more arrows to compensate.
  • Maximum turn count is reduced to 200,000 (2 million aut). Please limit the duration of your xomscumming activities accordingly.
  • Monster base AC, base EV, and base MR are displayed numerically.
  • Added a bunch of stupid randart names.
  • Sif Muna gifts books earlier.
  • Removed tomb. The entrance to Elf spawns in Vaults 1-2 rather than Orc 2.
  • Khufu can show up in Depths.
  • Orb spiders cast a bit more often.
  • Tentacled monstrosities are worth less exp.
  • Killer Klowns are nastier. They trade the blinker spellbook for the phantasmal warrior (blink close) spellbook and gain an additional chaos-branded attack.
  • Lair-like ruined levels will sometimes generate from D:10-D:15.
  • Removed items: potion of experience, potion of degeneration, wand of hasting.
  • Potion of mutation is a bit more common.
Remove spell hunger.

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Post Tuesday, 11th October 2016, 13:02

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Have to agree with tabstorm's assessment. Completing depths puts you back on the experience trajectory of a normal ass game of crawl. Depths needs cuts. I recommend at most 3 floors. Dungeon is pretty well tuned now, in my opinion.
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Post Tuesday, 11th October 2016, 13:16

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Can you play this online?

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Post Tuesday, 11th October 2016, 14:02

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

CypherZel wrote:Can you play this online?


https://crawl.project357.org/

Though it looks the latest changes are not yet deployed.
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Post Tuesday, 11th October 2016, 14:26

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

The turn cap should be a little higher, I think a slower player using Chei might have a hard time completing a 13(?) rune win under the 2 million aut limit especially if using statue form.
remove food

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Post Tuesday, 11th October 2016, 15:37

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Probably the turn cap should depend on number of runes.
Or alternatively just make OOD give no items/XP, so it will make sense to kill only monsters who were generated initially.
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Post Tuesday, 11th October 2016, 17:05

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Cuts to depths and extended are planned. I'll bump that up my list and try to address it this week.
Remove spell hunger.

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Post Tuesday, 11th October 2016, 17:44

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Probably the turn cap should depend on number of runes.
Or alternatively just make OOD give no items/XP, so it will make sense to kill only monsters who were generated initially.


was thinking about this the other day, why isn't this in normal crawl

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Post Tuesday, 11th October 2016, 18:46

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Hellmonk wrote:Cuts to depths and extended are planned. I'll bump that up my list and try to address it this week.


Appreciated. I'm cruising through late game at the minute. Was admittedly tougher than usual getting there, but the bottom just kinda fell out of the difficulty curve after Depths.
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Post Tuesday, 11th October 2016, 21:05

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

CypherZel wrote:
VeryAngryFelid wrote:Probably the turn cap should depend on number of runes.
Or alternatively just make OOD give no items/XP, so it will make sense to kill only monsters who were generated initially.


was thinking about this the other day, why isn't this in normal crawl

Because it's annoying to bump into monsters that give no exp. It's a psychological thing. As I understand, the OOD timer in Crawl (regular Crawl at least) is such that you may well run into OOD monsters even when you are not specifically wasting time on levels.
HOFEMDHeHuReMDHuHOCjDsHuNaCjHuHuSENeGEFEMDBeDDFiHOWzVpVMHuEEHEMoDEHuDDAsHaBeKoAK
CeVMMfWnMiAKTeAMDrIEFoVMVSFiMuVMGhGlVpMoHaWrSpWzOgGlTrMoCeWnMfBeMiSkDrEEGrFiFoGlDgEnFeNe
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Post Tuesday, 11th October 2016, 21:11

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

CypherZel wrote:
VeryAngryFelid wrote:Or alternatively just make OOD give no items/XP, so it will make sense to kill only monsters who were generated initially.


was thinking about this the other day, why isn't this in normal crawl


I'm not sure I even understand why there are any respawns. Would game be worse or better without any new monster generated after level created?

edit: forgot to post what i came to this thread to post: is there a compiled windows binary available somewhere? I'd like to try this version of crawl but the online server lags so hard for me i just cant play there.

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Post Tuesday, 11th October 2016, 22:49

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

I lost 55 hitpoints to a single attack of killer klown (21 AC and GDR 28%), also was attacked twice in a row pretty often, that's more dangerous than orb of fire imho. What's their max damage?
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Post Tuesday, 11th October 2016, 23:04

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

I like removal of wand of haste, orb run is no longer boring, zot 5 is much more dangerous too.
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Post Tuesday, 11th October 2016, 23:16

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Baldu3 wrote:edit: forgot to post what i came to this thread to post: is there a compiled windows binary available somewhere? I'd like to try this version of crawl but the online server lags so hard for me i just cant play there.

Not at the moment. I don't really know a lot about this stuff, if someone else can make a binary and throw it up somewhere that would be great, otherwise you'll have to compile it yourself if you want to play offline.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:I lost 55 hitpoints to a single attack of killer klown (21 AC and GDR 28%), also was attacked twice in a row pretty often, that's more dangerous than orb of fire imho. What's their max damage?

They do 30 af_klown followed by 30 af_chaotic. The second hit is exclusive to hellcrawl. They are speed 13, same as regular crawl, but you'll probably notice double hits a lot more because they won't blink away from you as often and they get two attacks per round. I can tune these guys further if this makes them too tough or annoying; I'm kind of worried about the paralyze chance from af_chaotic, maybe two hits of klown flavor would be better.
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Post Tuesday, 11th October 2016, 23:24

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Hellmonk wrote:They do 30 af_klown followed by 30 af_chaotic. The second hit is exclusive to hellcrawl. They are speed 13, same as regular crawl, but you'll probably notice double hits a lot more because they won't blink away from you as often and they get two attacks per round. I can tune these guys further if this makes them too tough or annoying; I'm kind of worried about the paralyze chance from af_chaotic, maybe two hits of klown flavor would be better.


Ouch. That explains high damage, I got AF_COLD, it can deal up to 3HD - 1 cold damage, that's 59 extra damage for HD 20 of killer klown. I didn't have rC+ so I could get 30 + 59 + 30 + 59 in a single attack (ignoring GDR here for easier calculations), that's 356 damage if I am attacked twice. Too much I think, Azure Jelly is harmless in comparison ;)

Edit. The same 356 damage for two klown flavor attacks. I am not sure we need to change klowns much, I got slowed by them in my previous game a few times.
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Post Wednesday, 12th October 2016, 02:02

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Last time you run a character with 21 ac in a game called "hellcrawl," I guess.
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Post Wednesday, 12th October 2016, 02:03

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

btw, is CPO up to date with the latest progress on hellcrawl? I wanna see how freakin huge solid and tight it is...
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