[proclick] new fork, hellcrawl


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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 8th December 2017, 19:46

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Hellmonk: So this might be somewhat selfishly motivated as it would make my life radically easier, but how would you feel about including statue form in the book of changes? Make transmuters great again! I'd like to be able to play octopodes without having to throw half of them away since they get too deep without yet finding AC.

bel

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Post Saturday, 9th December 2017, 06:51

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Nice try. :P

I don't think any starting book contains lvl 6 spells.

Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Tuesday, 12th December 2017, 00:50

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

New update
  • Several minor permabuff nerfs:
    • Song of slaying passively makes melee attacks louder
    • Spectral weapon has a brief (30-70aut) cooldown after it disappears before it can be resummoned. No, you can't game the timeout by releasing and recasting the spell.
    • Ozo's gives 1 less AC at all power levels
    • Cigotuvi's has a lower max AC cap and gains AC/SH more slowly. The spell is probably moving to level 6 in the next update, at which point I might revert this change.
  • WJC exists.
  • Nemelex is back again:
    • Stack five is gone
    • Gift timeout is a little less (ie you get more gifts) compared to previous hellcrawl nemelex
    • Card power level check reworked so that it makes sense. I *think* getting level 2 card power was impossible before.
    • Pentagram card is less strong, "only" giving you a friendly 1 instead of a panlord.
    • Storm card casts lightning bolt and sometimes summons ball lightnings. Still dangerous, probably less dumb than the big cloud ring thing that it did before.
    • Famine card reworked and inserted into the deck of escape. Power dependent chance to briefly paralyze, otherwise power dependent chance to make insane (if possible) otherwise inflict weakness, rolled independently for every enemy in line of sight.
    • Shaft card is removed.
    • Weapons summoned by the dance card updated to make sense with hellcrawl weapon progression.
    • Velocity card is always swiftness on all allies (but not you) at power 0, rather than the very bad sometimes slow yourself/haste enemies thing it used to do.
  • Spriggans are back to fast movement 3
  • Magical staves now take up the shield slot rather than the weapon slot. I'll be pleasantly surprised if this doesn't break anything.
  • Redesigned IE book: hibernation instead of throw frost and metabolic englaciation instead of summon ice beast. No longer has 3 level 4 spells and now has significant incentive to use hexes.
  • The NE book now contains sublimation of blood.
  • Jiyva piety gain is faster. Jiyva no longer gets mad if you kill jellies while under penance, as this led to incredibly dumb gameplay where you pretty much had to abandon.
  • Huge Chei buff: Chei no longer gets angry about quickblades
  • Shatter's damage formula is simpler. It always deals 1,3,or 6 dice of damage. The most significant effects are that it now does 1 die of damage to insubstantial monsters and no longer gets a bonus against icy ones.
  • Petrified/Petrifying status no longer provides damage reduction. This simultaneously makes petrify a more dangerous status and buffs the petrify spell.
  • Doom/Antiscumming clock applies everywhere except abyss in normal difficulty. Please do not xomscum thank you in advance.
  • Potions of resistance provide rN+ and MR+ in addition to the other resistances.
  • Stat rings are all +5. Slaying, EV, and AC rings still have two levels since +3 rings of those types are actually useful.
  • Distortion weapons no longer have instant/delayed teleportation effects. Other distortion effects are unchanged.
  • Took out a couple of throwable types (still need to do more ranged combat reform tbh), so steel ammo and poisoned javelins should no longer generate.
  • Speedrun difficulty is a bit more punishing wrt turncount but gives an extra 1.5x base mp regen to help out spellcastery builds.
  • Shock serpents no longer do a billion retaliation damage when you attack them.
  • Contamination displays a numeric value. Also I merged the extra contam sublevel that got added like a year ago.
  • Subtractor snake melee damage is a little less convoluted, with just the acid attack flavor instead of acid/draining/strong poison.

Sorry about the delay, I've been kind of lazy about getting the game updated. CPO is going to stay an update behind until I can talk to chequers. I'll put a zip file up on github within a day or two. This will be the last update for 2017 barring any serious bugs; the DCSS tourney is coming up early January and hellcrawl will probably get taken off of cbro during that time. I will try to get a big release together during the next few weeks and update again after the tournament ends.

Speaking of the tournament, my team has at least one slot open so if anyone wants to poopsock it and bang out a dozen wins talk to me or mibe on IRC.

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bananaken, nago

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 12th December 2017, 02:09

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Hellmonk wrote:[*]Huge Chei buff: Chei no longer gets angry about quickblades
[*]Shatter's damage formula is simpler. It always deals 1,3,or 6 dice of damage. The most significant effects are that it now does 1 die of damage to insubstantial monsters and no longer gets a bonus against icy ones.
[*]Stat rings are all +5. Slaying, EV, and AC rings still have two levels since +3 rings of those types are actually useful.

I assume the huge chei buff part is tongue in cheek. I suppose it is a buff in the technical sense, I'm going to have to try to come up with some reason to use quickblades on a chei character now. I guess vine stalkers of chei could use them? Hmmm.

Appreciate the shatter damage formula being simpler part, I kind of wonder if it wouldn't be better off just doing the normal (I think that's the 3 dice) amount to everything. Probably a lot less flavorful, but I like straightforward things. This may be too simple, though. Bonus points: Be the first person to kill an orb of fire with shatter. Double bonus points: Deal no damage to it other than with shatter (no softening with other things).

Stat rings: Wasn't this already the case? I was playing on whatever was on LLD about a week ago, and I only saw +5 stats, almost all +3 prot/evasion, although I later did find an ac+6 containing randart. Is it possible for +6 to generate early, or are they only in loot vaults? That's the only place I saw them, but my sample size is rather small...

bel

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Post Tuesday, 12th December 2017, 04:58

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Hellmonk wrote:Magical staves now take up the shield slot rather than the weapon slot.

Why?

Also, does this mean that you can dual-wield a staff of fire with a weapon?

Hellmonk wrote:Storm card casts lightning bolt and sometimes summons ball lightnings. Still dangerous, probably less dumb than the big cloud ring thing that it did before.

Not a good idea. Ball lightning can kill the player very easily, so it would no longer be worth it to blind-draw cards. If you don't like the cloud ring stuff it used to do earlier, just remove it. I didn't have any problems with how it worked earlier, except that it made a lot of noise (this part is unchanged, so it doesn't matter).

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Post Wednesday, 13th December 2017, 18:41

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

I won't be around til after Christmas, so no update until then sorry!
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Post Wednesday, 13th December 2017, 18:46

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

I am curious about how staves will work out. I like the idea a lot and it should avoid some silliness, like having to swap each time you meet popcorn with a mage; however, because of the resists, it can also mean wild swapping.
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Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Thursday, 14th December 2017, 02:54

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Pushing a staves related bugfix as soon as I can find someone on irc to update cbro. Until then there will be some instability and you'll likely see crashes in V:3.

Staves change is primarily to enforce a bigger tradeoff between spellpower and defenses/melee damage, though reducing swapping is nice I guess.

Will address storm card again next update, probably change back to air elementals (maybe give the entire old effect + lightning bolt?). Good call bel, I was tunneled on high level/high power effectiveness and didn't properly consider the "I accidentally got a power 1 storm card and oneshot myself on D:6" case.

bel

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Post Thursday, 14th December 2017, 05:57

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Hellmonk wrote:Staves change is primarily to enforce a bigger tradeoff between spellpower and defenses/melee damage, though reducing swapping is nice I guess.

I am not sure what this means in practice. Right now, I mostly use a magical staff on mage-type characters, who wear a buckler on the other hand (shields are usually too expensive to train). So what would it mean for this character? It has to dual wield a magical staff? Ok, but these characters are typically frail, do most of their damage at range and don't do much melee damage anyway, so they would much rather have a bit more protection than more melee damage.

I am not sure what playstyle this change is meant to encourage, and what was wrong with the old one.

bel

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Post Monday, 18th December 2017, 13:50

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Spellcasting penalties of Spider Form and Blade Hands no longer apply to form spells.

Interaction of blade hands with buffs is rather bad. For instance, I have regen on, then I cast blade hands, and my regen spellcost increases drastically, drains all my MP and dispels all buffs (including blade hands). So I have to end regen first, then cast blade hands.

Perhaps apply the "no penalty" criterion to all buffs. Or maybe just remove the spellcasting penalty altogether from blade hands. It's not clear to me what it's for, anyway. Do many conjurer types run around with blade hands?

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Post Monday, 18th December 2017, 17:12

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Moreover, would it be bad game design if conjurer types ran around with blade hands?

bel

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Post Wednesday, 20th December 2017, 09:23

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Btw, I do not like !agility removal (not sure why it was removed). Perhaps let !augmentation give agility as well? Though I think agility works better separately.

bel

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Post Thursday, 21st December 2017, 07:18

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

bel wrote:
Hellmonk wrote:Staves change is primarily to enforce a bigger tradeoff between spellpower and defenses/melee damage, though reducing swapping is nice I guess.

I am not sure what this means in practice. Right now, I mostly use a magical staff on mage-type characters, who wear a buckler on the other hand (shields are usually too expensive to train). So what would it mean for this character? It has to dual wield a magical staff? Ok, but these characters are typically frail, do most of their damage at range and don't do much melee damage anyway, so they would much rather have a bit more protection than more melee damage.

I am not sure what playstyle this change is meant to encourage, and what was wrong with the old one.

Ok, after some wizmode testing, I understand that one doesn't dual-wield the staff, and it is impossible to melee with it. Instead, one wears it as an enhancer in the shield slot.

Several comments:
  • Enhancer staff melee used to be very respectable. See this post for some calculations.
  • If things remain this way, perhaps the staff should be renamed to something else, since training "maces and staves" doesn't help in increasing melee damage from the staff.
  • It is a strange situation, because enhancer rings exist, which provide easy swapping, but staves are not easily swappable.
  • There is indeed a straight tradeoff between more spellpower and more protection. That part is fine, though I have no idea what was wrong with the old playstyle, and why it needed change.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 21st December 2017, 07:23

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Probably enhancer rings should be made non-swappable too. One thing which I hated about hybrids is that they use enhancer ring to cast spells at distance and then switch to ring of slaying/AC when out of MP to melee a monster, and then switch back to enhancer ring for next fight.
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bel

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Post Friday, 22nd December 2017, 02:59

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Slouch damage isn't displayed.

bel

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Post Friday, 22nd December 2017, 07:46

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Rename mephitic cloud to memetic cloud.

Temple Termagant

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Post Friday, 22nd December 2017, 21:23

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

bel wrote:Rename mephitic cloud to memetic cloud.


dank cloud

Swamp Slogger

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Post Saturday, 13th January 2018, 20:01

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Is hellcrawl gone from berotato?

Dungeon Master

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Post Sunday, 14th January 2018, 00:26

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

yes, all experimental branches are disabled for the duration of the tournament

Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Sunday, 14th January 2018, 03:17

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Yeah, cbro always takes down experimentals for the tourney. Hellcrawl will return to cbro with a new update some time shortly after the tourney ends. Until then, you can play online on cpo or lld.

Swamp Slogger

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Post Sunday, 14th January 2018, 03:50

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Hellmonk wrote:Yeah, cbro always takes down experimentals for the tourney. Hellcrawl will return to cbro with a new update some time shortly after the tourney ends. Until then, you can play online on cpo or lld.


Bah, playing normal crawl sucks and is annoying I had to do a 9-rune OpFi of Qazlal win on laggy CPO instead.

What is up with the mutagenic shafts btw?

bel

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Post Sunday, 14th January 2018, 13:27

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

You can play offline if you're bothered about lag.

Swamp Slogger

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Post Sunday, 14th January 2018, 17:36

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

bel wrote:You can play offline if you're bothered about lag.


I took a look at doing that but it seemed like it might require a small amount of work.

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Monday, 15th January 2018, 04:40

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Mutagenic shafts are fun, please reduce the number of normal staircases so I have to use them more (in speedrun mode).

Swamp Slogger

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Post 19 minutes ago

Re: [proclick] new fork, hellcrawl

Just wanted to say that I've given Hellcrawl a try, and it's really fun to play with perma-buffs and demonspawn.(Along with no stairs/food :D)

From reading past posts, Sif + Makhleb seem to be the top-tier gods in this fork(especially with the changed orb run) but are the other ones reasonably easy to win for a newbie hellcrawl player?
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