My monster danger ranking


If it doesn't fit anywhere else, it belongs here. Also, come here if you just need to get hammered.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8319

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Wednesday, 14th September 2016, 22:33

My monster danger ranking

MainiacJoe wrote:
duvessa wrote:steam dragon since it appears early sometimes

the others don't really do anything


I tend to agree with you and Sprucery about dragons. But I'm curious, since you also called old iron giants harmless recently, which if any monsters you do consider dangerous. I have my guess that you'd say something like adders and other early game threats--but which ones?
Here is a list of most monsters in the game ranked by how dangerous I consider them overall. This gives equal weight to every species (all draconians are considered to be the same species), and equal weight to every background. This is not synonymous with giving equal weight to every combo, since some species have more allowed combos than others.

I do not like tier lists. Unordered-within-tier lists are just a way to be noncommital, and ordered-within-tier lists are just ordered lists. So this is a full ordered list. I might be slightly out of date on some monsters but I doubt it will make much of a difference.

If something is higher than you'd expect, consider:
1. whether it is a valid polymorph target, and if so, its HD and holiness
2. vaults that place it earlier than it would randomly generate

You will notice some clustering of uniques and holinesses. It should be easy to figure out why.

Ziggurats are not considered in this list, but 15-rune games are. Ziggurats are screwy and would inflate some monsters (like mummy priest and greater mummy) by ridiculous amounts if included. Speedruns are also not considered, just ordinary playing to win with 3 or 15 runes.

I omitted derived undead because roughly tripling the length of the list for the sake of including a bunch of irrelevant monsters doesn't appeal to me.
I omitted player ghosts because their placement depends on the computer you're playing on (what a great monster design!!!!!) so they might be at the very bottom because they don't exist, or they might be at the very top because they can fire storm you on d:4.

"Why doesn't this match your online stats????" Because I usually play inattentively, I usually play badly and I frequently suicide and startscum. Feel free to count that against me as a player. But if you count it for the danger level of mountain bats, you're being silly.
I can't think of any online account (or set of accounts) that has a large enough sample size and little enough noise to be useful for something like this.

Finally, I hope this demonstrates that Crawl has way too many monsters.

  • == Start of list: monsters that can and do frequently end games that are being played reasonably well ==
  • Giant gecko. I have been saying for a long time now that giant gecko is the most dangerous monster in the game. It is similar to a jackal, but is more common and does significantly more damage, enough that I consider it the biggest threat to my games where I really try to win, averaged across all combos.
  • Kobold. I might not be justified in putting kobolds over hobgoblins, since the median hobgoblin is much worse than the median kobold. But kobolds with branded weapons are terrifying, and a D:2 blowgun kobold can just randomly kill you.
  • Hobgoblin
  • Adder. People love to cite D:1 adders as a source of unavoidable death. This is because they don't know what they're talking about, and don't know that adders can't generate on D:1 until after turn 700. Sometimes it's hard to finish D:1 before then, particularly if using autoexplore and/or 5, but they are not the immediate threat that kobold, hobgoblin, etc. are. I do think they're the biggest threat on D:2 though, which is enough to put them in 4th place. Orc priests and quokkas begin generating on D:1 at the same time as adders do. Exception: there's a vault I made that can very rarely place an adder on D:1, but it is relatively easy to avoid.
  • Jackal. These are scarier for people who don't understand noise and/or packs. Also neutered a lot by not autoexploring all of D:1.
  • Goblin. These are underestimated. Unlike hobgoblins, they can spawn with hunting slings and branded daggers on D:1.
  • Orc wizard
  • Gnoll
  • Centaur
  • Hound
  • Orc priest
  • Ooze
  • Water moccasin
  • Worker ant
  • Giant cockroach
  • Ijyb. Placing her above Sigmund is controversial, but Sigmund cannot spawn with an item that does 37 damage to you from the edge of LOS.
  • Gnoll shaman
  • Giant frog
  • Sigmund. Immediate confusion is enough to put him above the other D:2 uniques except Ijyb, despite his wand threat being smaller than the others'.
  • Natasha. Incredibly scary as a wand user because she is the only D:2 unique with fast movement.
  • Jessica
  • Terence
  • Dart slug
  • Bat
  • == This marks the point at which monsters are theoretically or rarely a real threat. Most early-ish uniques are here because they can get wands, but a D:3 wand monster is much less scary than a D:2 one. Most of the monsters here are here because of their potential as OOD spawns. ==
  • Grinder. She is not as dangerous as Natasha with a wand, but without a wand she can do a lot more than Natasha. I could see her being placed higher.
  • Prince Ribbit
  • Killer bee
  • Blork the orc
  • Centaur warrior
  • Quokka
  • Gnoll sergeant
  • Wyvern
  • Orc
  • Ogre
  • Warg
  • Nessos. Pretty dangerous if you haven't found a hex wand.
  • Robin. Has the dubious distinction of being the only D:2 unique that you don't need to worry about getting wanded by, since her pack of goblins almost always gives you advance warning AND blocks her line of fire.
  • Duvessa
  • Dowan
  • Edmund
  • Eustachio
  • Deep elf mage
  • Steam dragon
  • Iguana
  • Ball python
  • Frilled lizard. These are functionally identical to giant newts. I guess the change was made because the long-term goal for DCSS is for every monster to have spells.
  • Rat
  • Ugly thing. These generate early pretty often now.
  • Erolcha
  • Gargoyle
  • Menkaure. A wand threat but not much of one since he's slow.
  • Orc sorcerer
  • Orc warrior
  • Fire crab. These are high because they are a Lair spawn and I would argue they are the biggest threat in Lair, because although they're rare, they can generate on any Lair level and have near-instakill potential there.
  • Sixfirhy. I strongly believe sixfirhies are the most dangerous summon in the game. The only overall faster one is a hasted Executioner, which doesn't appear until much, much later in the game. So they are nearly impossible to escape without stairs (which will also get you away from literally every other summon in the game) or meph, and they put out a ton of damage.
  • Sun demon. Sixfirhies are really a more dangerous version of sun demons with a silly movement gimmick; I'm glad they were finally moved up a tier to reflect that. Sun demons being harder to kill is not enough to make them more dangerous than the version of them that's way faster and does similar damage.
  • Sonja
  • Psyche
  • Crimson imp. Has to find a rod or strong wand; otherwise (which is most of the time) it is harmless.
  • Black mamba
  • Blink frog
  • Spiny frog
  • Meliai. By the time you reach beehive depth these are only an annoyance, but they can be a bad OOD spawn.
  • Unseen horror. These are overrepresented in online stats because most players don't know what batty movement is. If you do know, only OOD unseen horrors should be a problem. Because OOD unseen horrors are ridiculously bad, they still have a pretty high place on the list.
  • Wasp
  • Lindwurm
  • Spriggan
  • Joseph
  • Maurice
  • Porcupine. It really disappoints me that this monster even exists. While laughably weak in its native branch, it's a horrible early polymorph result, which earns it a high place.
  • Boggart. These are only potentially dangerous as a polymorph target and are extremely overrated as one. People in irc will paste "The orc warrior evaporates and reforms into a boggart" and follow it with something like "rip me, better get my dick out because im about to meet harambe", apparently not realizing that if you polymorph something into a boggart on D:4, the boggart can still only summon D:4 monsters, and has almost identical durability to a giant frog. You should be more afraid of polymorphing something into a porcupine (same HD). Normally-generated boggarts are also obnoxious in console because during "autopilot" it's easy to not notice that the monsters you're fighting are summons, but I don't think that should be considered dangerous.
  • Torpor snail IF YOU USE AUTOEXPLORE IN LAIR. Because autoexplore handles corners etc. badly, it frequently puts you in situations where torpor snails cost you some resources.
  • Big kobold
  • Komodo dragon
  • Basilisk
  • Crocodile
  • Shadow imp
  • White imp
  • Quasit
  • Ogre mage
  • Pikel. Pikel is hard to take seriously because the slaves prevent him from wanding you.
  • Orc knight
  • Molten gargoyle
  • Dancing weapon
  • Blizzard demon
  • Hornet
  • Spriggan druid
  • Deep elf knight
  • Raiju
  • Mottled dragon
  • Phantom
  • Shadow
  • Spark wasp. The danger level of a spark wasp at its native depth is 0. However, their existence makes polymorph a bad option against many monsters, and makes them an outright threat if you're worshipping Xom.
  • Kobold demonologist
  • Deep elf archer
  • Tengu conjurer
  • Air elemental
  • Vampire mosquito
  • Orc warlord
  • Shapeshifter and glowing shapeshifter (I think the only difference between the two that is actually noticeable is the places in which they appear, so I might as well combine them)
  • Wolf spider
  • Guardian serpent
  • Felid
  • Very ugly thing
  • Scorpion
  • Acid blob. These are bad when they spawn in Lair, and as a polymorph target, but both are uncommon.
  • Rime drake
  • Shock serpent
  • == This marks the point at which monsters either:
    1. have almost no capacity to kill well-played characters, but are potentially troublesome if you're playing lazy
    2. could theoretically be dangerous, but the circumstances required are vanishingly rare
    3. are a polymorph threat when worshipping Xom, but otherwise harmless (Killer Klown) ==
  • Howler monkey
  • Jelly
  • Octopode
  • Aizul. This is the only post-Lair unique that I find kind of scary.
  • Orc high priest
  • Anaconda
  • Ice beast
  • River rat
  • Troll
  • Purgy
  • Wolf
  • Wight
  • Sky beast
  • Hell rat. These are sort of scary now because of certain vaults.
  • Manticore
  • Elephant
  • Yak
  • Slave
  • Hippogriff
  • Harpy
  • Vault warden
  • Spriggan rider
  • Spatial maelstrom
  • Apocalypse crab. I may be overrating these as you have to be very unlucky to actually encounter one when it matters.
  • Wizard
  • Urug
  • Entropy weaver
  • Grum
  • Quicksilver dragon
  • Snorg
  • Sea snake
  • Wraith
  • Agnes
  • Deep elf master archer. "High-tier" deep elves will be clustered as they all appear in almost the same places.
  • Tengu warrior
  • Sphinx
  • Ironbrand convoker
  • Lich. I think these are a little more relevant than ancient liches because they can appear earlier.
  • Deep elf blademaster
  • Fannar
  • Deep elf sorcerer
  • Deep elf high priest
  • Deep elf annihilator
  • Deep elf demonologist
  • Fire elemental
  • [Nonbase draconians go somewhere here, I'm not ranking all 63 of them]
  • Tengu reaver
  • Nergalle
  • Vault sentinel
  • Ancient lich
  • War gargoyle
  • Spriggan air mage
  • Spriggan berserker
  • Hellion
  • Ufetubus
  • Hell Sentinel
  • Brimstone Fiend
  • Executioner
  • Hellephant
  • Ghost crab
  • Water elemental
  • Soldier ant
  • Freezing wraith
  • Azure jelly. This is only a problem if it spawns in Lair, which is uncommon, and its HD is too high to be a polymorph threat without Xom.
  • Storm dragon
  • Fire giant
  • Stone giant
  • Wretched star
  • Ice Fiend. These are extremely overrated. I think it's because most players don't know bolt of cold's range. They are only this high because they can stop some characters from completing an ice cave without using limited resources. Even then, a blizzard demon in an ice cave is more dangerous than an Ice Fiend in an ice cave.
  • Fire dragon
  • Ice dragon
  • Hill giant
  • Crystal guardian
  • Sojobo
  • Boris
  • Slime creature
  • Jorgrun
  • Two-headed ogre
  • Necromancer
  • Hydra. People complain about these a lot because they're ubiquitous and hard to melee, but they are easy to avoid engaging, unless you're a naga or Chei character in which case they're a bit harder (but most of the stuff above is still more dangerous). The main threats from hydras are impatience and ??stair_deaths.
  • Polar bear
  • Wind drake
  • Yaktaur captain
  • Rupert
  • Harold
  • Hungry ghost
  • Alligator
  • Angel
  • Cyclops. Slow.
  • Death ooze. Same situation as azure jelly, except even Xom can't create one via polymorph, and it's weaker as a monster too.
  • Necrophage
  • Worm
  • Deep troll earth mage
  • Ettin
  • Swamp drake
  • Phantasmal warrior. The -MR is irrelevant, they are here for their melee damage and making your movements take an additional 300ms realtime since they love to blink in front of you.
  • Snapping turtle
  • Balrug
  • Cacodemon
  • Hell beast
  • Flayed ghost
  • Smoke demon
  • Azrael
  • Flying skull
  • Louise
  • Deep elf elementalist
  • Shadow demon
  • Rakshasa
  • Deep elf death mage
  • Giant leech
  • Eidolon
  • Shadow dragon
  • Nikola. High autoexplore death potential. Can't do much else.
  • Shadow wraith
  • Reaper
  • Swamp dragon
  • Thorn hunter
  • Erica
  • Efreet
  • Yaktaur
  • Mana viper. I may be overrating these. They are only a problem as a polymorph target.
  • Tormentor
  • Death knight
  • Lorocyproca
  • Soul eater
  • Green death
  • Ynoxinul
  • Diamond obelisk. I think you can still be shafted into one early in the game. If not, then put it at the bottom.
  • Jumping spider
  • Hell hound
  • Fire bat
  • Kirke
  • Caustic shrike. Too much HD to be a polymorph threat without Xom. Not really dangerous by the time it appears, provided you are willing to avoid melee.
  • Tzitzimitl
  • Ghost moth
  • the Enchantress
  • Spriggan defender
  • Mennas. Breaks autoexplore. Mennas is really only a problem for mummies, since he can confuse them the same turn he enters LOS and they will probably die if that happens. If you don't autoexplore he is harmless.
  • Death yak
  • Deep troll shaman
  • Deep troll
  • Mara
  • Shambling mangrove
  • Hell knight
  • Demonic crawler
  • Vampire bat
  • Josephine
  • Dire elephant
  • Apis. Dual holiness existing, in addition to being insane, means that living monsters polymorph into these.
  • Torpor snail IF YOU EXPLORE LAIR MANUALLY. In this case, you should be handling corners and doorways correctly and can immediately undo the slowing and deal with whatever the other monsters in the pack are, as if the torpor snail didn't exist.
  • Hellwing
  • Tarantella
  • Redback
  • Crazy Yiuf. Now that he is behind a runed door the only danger is shafting/teleport into one of the 8 squares of his cottage, which is too rare for me to take seriously. Mind you, if Yiuf is going to be in the game this is exactly how it should be. A speed 10 unique that cannot safely be meleed but usually has no ranged attack is an uninteresting yet really annoying unique.
  • Skeletal warrior
  • Black bear
  • Starcursed mass
  • Titan
  • Margery
  • Xtahua
  • Griffon
  • Bog body
  • Merfolk
  • Frederick
  • Saint Roka
  • Jiangshi
  • Satyr
  • Electric golem. This is higher than orb of fire because it appears outside of Zot.
  • Tentacled monstrosity
  • Donald
  • Orb Guardian
  • Orb of fire
  • Rust devil
  • Red devil
  • Orange demon
  • Vault guard
  • Ice devil
  • Neqoxec
  • Thrashing horror
  • Frost giant. This is another monster that people are only scared of because they don't know bolt of cold's range.
  • Eye of devastation
  • Vampire knight
  • Asterion
  • Naga mage. These are higher than the other nagas because I kept putting them in vaults for some reason.
  • Catoblepas
  • Tentacled starspawn
  • Mummy
  • Merfolk aquamancer
  • Juggernaut. I have voiced my dislike of this monster's design before, so I will just remind you how easy it is to stop them from following you across stairs, or neuter them with level 1 summons. Restoring their old damage would not change their place on the list.
  • The Lernaean Hydra. The only thing this monster really does is sometimes instakill you for using autoexplore on Swamp:$. Currently the most played ttyrec on FooTV (since the last reset) is of that exact thing happening to me.
  • Alligator snapping turtle
  • Roxanne
  • Daeva
  • Giant orange brain
  • Hell hog
  • Small abomination
  • Large abomination. These are actually slower than small abominations, for some reason.
  • Merfolk javelineer
  • Merfolk impaler
  • Faun
  • Vampire mage
  • Insubstantial wisp
  • Bennu
  • Vampire
  • Iron imp
  • [Nonbase demonspawn go somewhere here, I'm not ranking all 25 of them, but they're very low danger as they basically don't exist outside Pan]
  • Toenail golem
  • Greater naga
  • Shard shrike
  • Killer Klown
  • Death scarab
  • Tiamat
  • Ghoul
  • Shining eye
  • Giant eyeball
  • Golden eye
  • Moth of wrath
  • Ilsuiw. Ilsuiw is exhausting since she takes a long time to deal with and appears in EVERY Shoals, but she can't really do anything else.
  • Minotaur
  • Arachne. This is a bad clone of Aizul, localized to a place where she is easy to avoid.
  • Death drake
  • Ancient champion
  • Revenant
  • Naga
  • Water nymph. Remember how in the D&D 3.5 monster manual they just straight up drew a nude elf for the water nymph illustration?
  • Jory
  • Curse skull
  • Greater mummy
  • Mummy priest
  • Khufu
  • Doom hound
  • = This marks the point at which even dying or losing resources to these monsters (or anything relating to them) by inattention or Xom is practically impossible. Either they are extremely easy to avoid, or cannot do noticeable damage at all, and polymorphs to them are not a threat. Of course, deaths still occur with situations like "screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok" or just not being spoiled about the monster. =
  • Orb spider
  • Naga sharpshooter
  • Formicid
  • Elf
  • Ironheart preserver
  • Gastronok
  • Salamander mystic
  • Golden dragon
  • Siren
  • Emperor scorpion
  • Bai Suzhen
  • Swamp worm (that vault that instakills you with swamp worms for using autoexplore in Lair without travel_avoid_terrain is gone now, right?)
  • Serpent of Hell (don't care to rank them separately, they are too close together and too low-threat)
  • Great orb of eyes
  • Frances
  • Polyphemus. The repeated buffs to his damage and HP don't solve the problem that he is almost Gastronok-tier easy to walk away from...and he appears much later than Gastronok.
  • Salamander
  • Naga ritualist
  • Ignacio
  • Hog
  • Bone dragon
  • Worldbinder
  • Vashnia
  • Iron elemental
  • Ushabti
  • Naga warrior
  • Iron giant. No, giving them back throw would not move them higher. Yes, taking their speed away again would move them even lower. Moving them back to Depths would move them up to about the same level of irrelevance as minotaurs.
  • Spatial vortex
  • Merfolk avatar. These are just baffling, the most noticeable thing they do is run away.
  • Moon troll
  • Iron troll
  • Fire vortex
  • Silent spectre. Breaks autoexplore, but unlike Mennas they do nothing.
  • Iron golem
  • Earth elemental
  • Iron dragon
  • Elemental wellspring
  • Seraph
  • Ice statue
  • Electric eel
  • Lava snake
  • Profane servitor
  • Orange crystal statue
  • Queen bee
  • Random Pan lords
  • Kraken. I think most players don't realize the tentacles only work if the kraken monster itself is in LOS. They're basically statues that can be poisoned.
  • Eye of draining
  • Oklob plant
  • Vine stalker
  • Draconian
  • Demigod
  • Deep dwarf
  • Dwarf
  • Halfling
  • Death cob
  • Curse toe
  • Obsidian statue
  • Ball lightning
  • Statue
  • Dissolution
  • The Royal Jelly
  • Hellbinder
  • Guardian mummy
  • Ancient zyme
  • Gloorx Vloq
  • Cloud Mage
  • Geryon
  • Lom Lobon
  • Cerebov
  • Mnoleg
  • Lurking horror
  • Ereshkigal
  • Asmodeus
  • Dispater
  • Antaeus
  • Murray
  • Queen ant
  • Oklob sapling
  • Lost soul
  • Pearl dragon
  • Cherub
  • Ophan
  • Holy swine
  • == Below this point, monsters have 0 danger ==
  • Butterfly
  • Training dummy
  • Hyperactive ballistomycete
  • Ballistomycete
  • Toadstool
  • == Below this point, monsters have negative danger ==
  • Boulder beetle. The worst-designed monster in the game in my opinion and it can only hit you if you make a typo.
  • Wandering mushroom
  • Lightning spire
  • Burning bush
  • Bush
  • Fungus
  • Plant, withered plant, and demonic plant

Don't know, haven't looked at them enough yet, but I suspect they will be very low:
Peacekeeper
Saltling
Dream sheep (could potentially be high if you autoexplore in lair)
Ragged hierophant
Servant of whispers
Imperial myrmidon
Halazid warlock

edit: fixed spatial vortex being listed as spatial maelstrom
Last edited by duvessa on Thursday, 22nd September 2016, 02:15, edited 2 times in total.

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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Wednesday, 14th September 2016, 22:56

Re: My monster danger ranking

duvessa wrote:Kraken. I think most players don't realize the tentacles only work if the kraken monster itself is in LOS. They're basically statues that can be poisoned.
I did not know this! Seems like a weird consequence of having the tentacles+kraken be the "same" monster, maybe it'd be better if they were stuck to each other but technically separate monsters.

Barkeep

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Post Wednesday, 14th September 2016, 23:02

Re: My monster danger ranking

Yeah, seems about right. Good thinking re: taking polymorph possibilities into account.

Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Wednesday, 14th September 2016, 23:18

Re: My monster danger ranking

What is point of startscumming?
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Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Wednesday, 14th September 2016, 23:35

Re: My monster danger ranking

Some people really manual explore in lair and beyond? Or is it just a meme?

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Shoals Surfer

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Post Wednesday, 14th September 2016, 23:35

Re: My monster danger ranking

What mechanic did you use to determine that a black bear is ever so slightly more dangerous than a starcursed mass, or that a hellephant is worse than a ghost crab (I specifically disagree with the latter, aside from unlucky early Abyss trips, where hellephants are really bad)?

Aside from that, I disagree that there are too many monsters (though some could be cut out as irrelevant - I certainly never think "boy, I wish there were less monsters in general!" while playing) and the list is mostly theoretical as most players (myself included) play suboptimally or even just poorly all of the time, which makes a lot of monsters more dangerous than you give them credit for. You mention autoexploring in lair a lot, but like the poster who just ninja'd me mentioned, I've only ever seen one person not use autoexplore throughout the game, not counting turncount speedrunners, so I guess that's not a common thing.
If I play online, I do so under the screenname Marenglen.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 00:04

Re: My monster danger ranking

I put hellephant over ghost crab solely because of early banishment, yes. It's very rare, but I think it's a slightly bigger threat than polymorphing something into a ghost crab without being able to get away.
I can certainly see why you'd put black bear a lot lower, I have it that high because it has some theoretical potential as an OOD spawn.

And autoexplore is assumed in most of the list. That's why Nikola is as high as he is. I separate torpor snails and dream sheep specifically because there is a ridiculously big difference between their threat level when autoexploring, and their threat level when not autoexploring.

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 00:38

Re: My monster danger ranking

How do you feel about the fact that the strongest threats players experience are all early game? Good, bad, neutral?

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 01:16

Re: My monster danger ranking

It's a balance problem that needs to be corrected, but it cannot be corrected effectively by the approach of adding more monsters and more gimmicks to later areas. It is an artifact of scaling problems, mainly consumables and branches existing, and complicated by a few other factors, like gods and spells. That said, I think reducing the game's length is more important at the moment.

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Shoals Surfer

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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 01:49

Re: My monster danger ranking

Thanks for putting in the effort to write all this, outside a few outliers (for example I consider shrikes dangerous and always handle with maximum care and I'd rate spark wasps as sometimes threatening), I'm largely in agreement with your list.

This would be a good thread to sticky along with your acquirement thread!

Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 01:52

Re: My monster danger ranking

How do you "avoid melee with" caustic shrikes?

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 01:52

Re: My monster danger ranking

The acquirement post is outdated and I don't know why you'd sticky either one. At least the acquirement thread was actually useful, this is just a personal list that someone asked for.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 02:57

Re: My monster danger ranking

lethediver wrote:How do you feel about the fact that the strongest threats players experience are all early game? Good, bad, neutral?


Unless Crawl is shortened I don't think this problem is avoidable, nor is it a good idea to avoid this problem. The average three-rune victory takes several hours. The frustration factor of losing a character that you've invested hours in is exponentially higher than the frustration factor of losing an early character. (Except in the case of streak-enders, of course!)

The devteam has been working towards pruning the game and shortening it where it seems reasonable (you may notice Dungeon going from 27 levels to 15, Lair from 8 to 6, S-branches from 5 to 4...) but even then...

Keep in mind that the vast majority of Crawl players have never won, and many Crawl players have never seized a rune of Zot. Online Crawl discussion tends to self-select towards good players and/or players who are enthusiastic enough to seek out advice on playing the game.

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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 07:46

Re: My monster danger ranking

Thanks for the impressive effort to list any monster in the game because it is a too long list.
And obliviously for the accuracy of your post - which is far higher than any other analysis or complain or whatever about monster an average player could do. (personally I'd probably move something lower or higher but nothing that really matter).

Oh, I'm going to use "screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok" unless you're not ok with that because this is how I play every game past dunno D:10
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 08:33

Re: My monster danger ranking

I'm surprised you were willing to actually list all the monsters. I assume it was created with an assumption of playing a normal-speed species, I wonder how it would look like for Nagas.

And we still need a threat assessment for average players using auto-explore and at least attempting to kill everything encountered. And if it's not "we need", then it's "I need" at the very least because I'm interested.

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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 08:34

Re: My monster danger ranking

Brannock wrote:
lethediver wrote:Keep in mind that the vast majority of Crawl players have never won, and many Crawl players have never seized a rune of Zot.

I think this is a bit of a controversial statement. If a person has played less than 10 games is he really a Crawl player? My first twenty games lasted a few minutes and that is taking into account looking up key bindings, reading flavour text and the help. By my estimation once you get into 250 games plus territory I'd say most of those players certainly have won a game or two.

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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 08:59

Re: My monster danger ranking

I wonder why DE elementalist is so low compared to DTEE or DE high priest. DTEE breaks your cover, does undodgeable damage at range and makes a lot of noise. May be hasted by a shaman. DE elementalist does exactly the same + floods you with summons, and doesn't need a shaman to be fast. High priest does close to nothing if there are no allies with strong spells around (well, lack of rN+ changes that, but only a little).

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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 09:52

My monster danger ranking

Is this a troll post or am I just reading it wrong? Did you say giant gecko was the hardest enemy in the game?

Edit: was thinking this was an interesting read but I won't read and waste my time getting trolled
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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 09:57

Re: My monster danger ranking

CypherZel wrote:Is this a troll post or am I just reading it wrong? Did you say giant gecko was the hardest enemy in the game

This is pretty close to true actually. Although from my experience for me the hardest tend to be jackals and gnolls.
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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 10:00

Re: My monster danger ranking

I find this so hard to believe since I have never once had a near death experience that was directly or indirectly caused by one of them.
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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 10:04

Re: My monster danger ranking

Are you sure, though? Are you counting the games that are so quickly over that you don't remember them (e.g. you splat three weaponless mages on D:1 before the fourth finds a weapon and makes it big)?

I'm a bit skeptical about giant geckos getting the first place as well, but then again, you could make the argument that they are the most dangerous thing on D:1 if you play hyper-optimally.
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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 10:10

Re: My monster danger ranking

CypherZel wrote:I find this so hard to believe since I have never once had a near death experience that was directly or indirectly caused by one of them.

Try playing a bad early combo and fight some giant geckos at XL1. They're fast by the way, so you can't run. If you add to that that according to minmay a monster is (close to) zero threat if it can't catch up to you OR deal damage/inflict status from range OR you have consumables to use, then giant geckos sure seem dangerous. I'm not sure if I'd put them at the top spot using the same criteria as OP did, but they'd certainly be very high too.

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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 11:48

Re: My monster danger ranking

HANFGEIST wrote:
Brannock wrote:
lethediver wrote:Keep in mind that the vast majority of Crawl players have never won, and many Crawl players have never seized a rune of Zot.

I think this is a bit of a controversial statement. If a person has played less than 10 games is he really a Crawl player? My first twenty games lasted a few minutes and that is taking into account looking up key bindings, reading flavour text and the help. By my estimation once you get into 250 games plus territory I'd say most of those players certainly have won a game or two.

That's pretty "no true scotsman". Anybody who plays a game of crawl is a crawl player. Those who play "only" twenty minutes and stop are just as much players as you are.

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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 11:56

Re: My monster danger ranking

If you look up statistics on games(basic progression steam achievements are good for this), it's actually very normal for players of almost all games to normally never finish the games that they play... saying "well, but once they hit 10 hours they probably will" or whatever doesn't mean much, because the important information is that normal players do not play enough to complete games.

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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 12:01

Re: My monster danger ranking

HANFGEIST wrote:
Brannock wrote:
lethediver wrote:Keep in mind that the vast majority of Crawl players have never won, and many Crawl players have never seized a rune of Zot.

I think this is a bit of a controversial statement.

https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/dcss-survey-results-2012

Regarding the OP's list: well, some monster has to be most lethal one. What I don't understand, however, is the willingness to produce an ordered list on probabilities that should become highly fuzzed out by statistical noise very soon. In other words, I understand the grouping into coarse tiers, but not the listing within each grouping. Nonetheless, thanks for impressive effort!
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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 12:25

Re: My monster danger ranking

Why is ooze so high?
HOFEMDHeHuReMDHuHOCjDsHuNaCjHuHuSENeGEFEMDBeDDFiHOWzVpVMHuEEHEMoDEHuDDAsHaBeKoAK
CeVMMfWnMiAKTeAMDrIEFoVMVSFiMuVMGhGlVpMoHaWrSpWzOgGlTrMoCeWnMfBeMiSkDrEEGrFiFoGlDgEnFeNe
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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 13:12

Re: My monster danger ranking

Sprucery wrote:Why is ooze so high?

That was my thought too. Giant gecko et al I can understand, ooze I can't when rat is on a separate tier.

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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 13:23

Re: My monster danger ranking

Ooze is no longer slow, it is "normal" (speed 10) same as rat. , However ooze has much more HP than rat and can hit for more damage. Neither can use weapons/wands, so both are less dangerous than kobolds, hobgoblins, etc.

@ CypherZel: duvessa brings up some of the criteria in the post. The OP is not trolling, and who knows, you may even learn something by reading it!

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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 13:25

Re: My monster danger ranking

With ooze you lose!

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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 13:31

Re: My monster danger ranking

It is hard to imagine that the list is serious.

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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 13:36

Re: My monster danger ranking

Not that hard, actually

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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 13:37

Re: My monster danger ranking

It's precisely what I'd expect a minmay list to look like.

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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 13:49

Re: My monster danger ranking

Some stuff that are weird even by minmayish standards:
duvessa wrote:[*]Unseen horror. These are overrepresented in online stats because most players don't know what batty movement is. If you do know, only OOD unseen horrors should be a problem.

duvessa wrote:[*]Spark wasp. The danger level of a spark wasp at its native depth is 0.

duvessa wrote:[*]Caustic shrike. Too much HD to be a polymorph threat without Xom. Not really dangerous by the time it appears, provided you are willing to avoid melee.

Also, placing Lom Lobon or Gloorx Vloq into the "extremely easy to avoid, or cannot do noticeable damage at all" tier.

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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 13:52

Re: My monster danger ranking

Looks like classic minmay to me.

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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 13:53

Re: My monster danger ranking

Sar wrote:Looks like classic minmay to me.


Yes, it is weird to assume that player always has a wand of polymorph and uses spoilers to polymorph monsters.
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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 13:55

Re: My monster danger ranking

Brannock wrote: The frustration factor of losing a character that you've invested hours in is exponentially higher than the frustration factor of losing an early character.


I believe it should not be considered valid argument. Do you want to see "Let me win, I have been playing this character for 3 hours already" button? I hope not.
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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 14:58

Re: My monster danger ranking

chequers wrote:That's pretty "no true scotsman". Anybody who plays a game of crawl is a crawl player. Those who play "only" twenty minutes and stop are just as much players as you are.

Well, when I was a rookie, I didn't know Panlords from pancakes. I only knew to be wary of jackals and yaks from Angband. I also didn't really know what I was doing when I won my first game 'cause I didn't read the wiki or forum. The dumb things I did with my character build are worthy of their own thread actually.

In any case I just wanted to point out there are many 0 win players with <10 games under their belt and I'd not take their share of deaths as a sure sign the game is too hard.

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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 16:52

Re: My monster danger ranking

stickyfingers wrote:I wonder why DE elementalist is so low compared to DTEE or DE high priest. DTEE breaks your cover, does undodgeable damage at range and makes a lot of noise. May be hasted by a shaman. DE elementalist does exactly the same + floods you with summons, and doesn't need a shaman to be fast. High priest does close to nothing if there are no allies with strong spells around (well, lack of rN+ changes that, but only a little).
DTEE and deep elf high priest can generate in Dungeon. DE elementalist cannot, outside of a certain easily avoidable vault. That said, neither monster does much of anything, which is why other deep elves that don't generate in Dungeon are near DE high priest. (You could reasonably put DE annihilator higher).

As for all the "why make this list" posts, because people literally asked for it.

It is assumed that the player is spoiled, yes. If you're an unspoiled player, the most dangerous monsters are the ones you know the least about. If I did not assume the player is spoiled, it would be a completely meaningless list that changes after every single game.

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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 17:45

Re: My monster danger ranking

Magipi wrote:Some stuff that are weird even by minmayish standards:
duvessa wrote:[*]Unseen horror. These are overrepresented in online stats because most players don't know what batty movement is. If you do know, only OOD unseen horrors should be a problem.

duvessa wrote:[*]Spark wasp. The danger level of a spark wasp at its native depth is 0.

duvessa wrote:[*]Caustic shrike. Too much HD to be a polymorph threat without Xom. Not really dangerous by the time it appears, provided you are willing to avoid melee.

Also, placing Lom Lobon or Gloorx Vloq into the "extremely easy to avoid, or cannot do noticeable damage at all" tier.


I kinda understand this stuff though.

Unseen horror - you can close door, go to a corridor, or stairdance to avoid them completely, and they dont do that much damage so you usually have plenty of time to do so.

However, i would put them higher because you might encounter one in a wide open space with unexplored lvl (so TP is dangerous). Especially on a low hp caster, this can be fatal.

Spark wasp are easily defeated by hex wands.

Caustic shrike should prolly be higher but a prepared player uses summons, rods and god abilities on them, preferably in a corridor. They're a big killer of unspoiled players though - "oh look a cute bird, hey it moves pretty fast, OWWWW WHAT? 50 DAMAGE AND -15 CORROSION??? WHY AM I DEAD WTF WHAT HAPPENED I ONLY ACCIDENTALLY HIT SPACE ONCE"

All the Hell/Pan lords make sense to me because you usually have enough blink scrolls/haste/swift/fog/cblink/blink/tele/shatter/etc to just ninja the rune by the time you reach them, and if you're playing to win you probably should.

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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 18:00

Re: My monster danger ranking

lethediver wrote:I kinda understand this stuff though.

Unseen horror - you can close door, go to a corridor, or stairdance to avoid them completely, and they dont do that much damage so you usually have plenty of time to do so.

However, i would put them higher because you might encounter one in a wide open space with unexplored lvl (so TP is dangerous). Especially on a low hp caster, this can be fatal.

Spark wasp are easily defeated by hex wands.

Caustic shrike should prolly be higher but a prepared player uses summons, rods and god abilities on them, preferably in a corridor. They're a big killer of unspoiled players though - "oh look a cute bird, hey it moves pretty fast, OWWWW WHAT? 50 DAMAGE AND -15 CORROSION??? WHY AM I DEAD WTF WHAT HAPPENED I ONLY ACCIDENTALLY HIT SPACE ONCE"

All the Hell/Pan lords make sense to me because you usually have enough blink scrolls/haste/swift/fog/cblink/blink/tele/shatter/etc to just ninja the rune by the time you reach them, and if you're playing to win you probably should.


Unseen Horror is extremely dangerous when you first meet them which often happens in open terrain. Luring them to corridor or whatever does not work well unless you are wearing plate armour or alike.

Spark wasp have "blink adjacent", electric attack and are fast, they are the most dangerous monster of Snake Pit, especially in heavy armour. Wand of confusion does not work well because they have high speed and can become adjacent before getting confused so you basically need wand of paralysis which is rare. Also they deal damage when they get hurt (this is my experience, wiki does not mention it so maybe I misremember something).

Caustic shrikes are extremely fast and deadly, they clear summons very fast and come in packs which again is deadly in open terrain. Rods with summoning is rare, evokables with a single summon like lamp of fire and alike don't help much (shrikes have rF+/rC+ also). Only a few gods have abilities which can deal with them, like Qazlal and Ru.

I find it weird that the list puts most dangerous monsters (Hell/Pan lords) at the end of the list because you can avoid them with consumables. Move them to the top with note "Use consumables to avoid fighting them!!!" IMHO.
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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 18:05

Re: My monster danger ranking

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Spark wasp have "blink adjacent", electric attack and are fast, they are the most dangerous monster of Snake Pit, especially in heavy armour. Wand of confusion does not work well because they have high speed and can become adjacent before getting confused so you basically need wand of paralysis which is rare. Also they deal damage when they get hurt (this is my experience, wiki does not mention it so maybe I misremember something).
Them having high speed doesn't mean wand of paralysis has any more chance of working, and either confusing or paralyzing them makes them easy. Also they do not deal damage whenever you hurt them.
VeryAngryFelid wrote:I find it weird that the list puts most dangerous monsters (Hell/Pan lords) at the end of the list because you can avoid them with consumables.
Why is that weird? Early on in the game you have few or no consumables, in extended you have more than you could ever need.

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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 18:13

Re: My monster danger ranking

I asked for this list. Thank you, minmay. This was much more than I was expecting, which was a sentence or two.

I am pleased that my intuition about what you'd say was correct, this suggests that I'm learning something abut the game. I also learned from this list, namely about the danger of autoexplore and using chaff to block wand users.
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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 18:16

Re: My monster danger ranking

Shard1697 wrote:Them having high speed doesn't mean wand of paralysis has any more chance of working, and either confusing or paralyzing them makes them easy. Also they do not deal damage whenever you hurt them.


Confused monster still can attack in melee sometimes and sparks are fast and adjacent often. Thanks, I should keep closer attention to messages.

Why is that weird? Early on in the game you have few or no consumables, in extended you have more than you could ever need.


I still don't see why we should have all extremely dangerous monsters at the bottom. Most characters have enough scrolls of blinking to get the orb without fighting any orbs of fire, does it mean orbs of fire are harmless?

I guess we have different meaning for "dangerous". For me "dangerous" means "it can kill me easily, especially if I make a mistake and/or refuse to use consumables, I cannot just safely kill it using my standard tactics (tab for melee)". For you it looks like "dangerous" means "it will kill me if I play perfectly and have wand of polymorph, scroll of blinking, wand of teleportation, haste spell and god with summons" so you read scroll of blinking vs the scariest monsters and then claim them to be not dangerous.

Edit. Probably the best way to see actually dangerous monsters is to create the list for Formicid. I am sure Caustic Shrikes and Lom Lobon will be much higher then.
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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 18:36

Re: My monster danger ranking

well you don't need to fight Lom Lobon to win even as an ant so

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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 18:41

Re: My monster danger ranking

You don't need to fight anything even as ant so? No monsters are dangerous in crawl? ;)
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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 18:50

Re: My monster danger ranking

Strongest, most powerful =/= most dangerous.

Yeah, late game enemies have bigger stats and have more stuff to throw at you. But by that point you have consumables, high piety with your chosen god, etc.

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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 19:04

Re: My monster danger ranking

I guess we need shrikecrawl, similar to gnollcrawl except every monster is replaced with Caustic Shrike (50%) or Shard Shrike (50%). You can even start with max piety of a chosen god and 5 consumables of every kind including rods.
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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 19:10

Re: My monster danger ranking

Caustic shrikes and Lom Lobon are not any higher for formicids than they are for other species. Hellpan lords aren't low because you can use consumables against them (if something is likely to require consumables it will get a much a higher place than hellpan lords), they're there because they are some of the easiest monsters in the game to avoid; you know the exact levels they're on and exactly where they start on those levels AND they're patrolling so disengaging is trivial.

I had a brain queef and put the Enchantress and spriggan defenders very high despite them not appearing before Depths. I know I put spriggan defenders there because I incorrectly remembered them appearing in an earlier vault. I can't explain why the Enchantress was up there though. Fixed that now.

Caustic shrike was already above everything else Depths-exclusive, what more do you want?
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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 19:17

Re: My monster danger ranking

VeryAngryFelid wrote:I guess we need shrikecrawl, similar to gnollcrawl except every monster is replaced with Caustic Shrike (50%) or Shard Shrike (50%). You can even start with max piety of a chosen god and 5 consumables of every kind including rods.

I was actually thinking about this as the starting point for a new branch: a branch full of hasted felid casters, shrikes and iron giants, appearing around Depth:1.
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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 19:29

Re: My monster danger ranking

duvessa wrote:Caustic shrike was already above everything else Depths-exclusive, what more do you want?



I want to understand how you created the list and what is so special about "Depths-exclusive". We can take a look at 10 entries just before Caustic Shrikes:

Death Knight. Speed 10, melee only monster (Agony is ranged attack but cannot kill).

Lorocyproca. Abyss-Pan exclusive monster? Are you buffing all Abyss monsters in your list like player was banished early?

Soul eater. Tier 3 demon with normal speed. Drain Life does not deal much damage.

Green death. Swamp ending I suppose? You usually have rPois there and they are normal speed so their Poison Arrow is not as bad as situation with Caustik Shrikes where you have problems surviving until teleport kicks in

Ynoxinul. Is it a joke? Or do mean Orc Sorcerer's summon here? Then it should determine Orc Sorcerer danger, not Ynoxinul danger IMHO.

Diamond obelisk. Ok

Jumping spider. Ok

Hell hound? Weak in Volcano, weak in Lair ending. Or do you mean they can guard entrance to Lair like wiki claims?
Then I have a question. If Lair entrance might be guarded by Caustik Shrike, would you move it up in your list?

Fire bat. ok

Kirke. ok
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