Picking a god during game start

[VeryAngryFelid]

Would you like to have an option of picking starting god right during picking species and background?
Of course it will not be free, you get a random bad mutation at XL 5 if you pick god (even if you pick Trog as non-berserker). The mutation can be removed by potion of cure mutation of course.

Inspired by

there are really people, and quite a lot of them too, who decide that this time they want to play a Naga of Chei, an Octopode of Gozag or a Demonspawn of Yred

[goodcoolguy]

Obviously I would always take the god and a mutation. There are gods that move your win condition from getting to lair:2 to getting to * or **, which means you've reached the win condition before you even get the mutation you're talking about in many games. Like, if you ever pass on d:1 Nemelex, Fedhas, Hep, or Yred, you just don't know what you're doing or you don't care if you win or lose.

So I don't think this would be a good feature. It would be what they call a "no-brainer."

[Airwolf]

Plus, the +wiz, -spellpower mutation is a "bad mutation", but is great for charms etc.

[VeryAngryFelid]

your win condition from getting to lair:2

Ok, I am clear about my proposal, let's talk about this instead. What is so special about Lair:2? Depending on character I can clear D11 before even entering L because of multiple crazy fast heavy hitting monsters and hydra.

[bcadren]

For most characters if you can clear Lair:1, you can clear the rest of lair easily for a lot of experience getting you overleveled with good skills (high level spells online, a 2H weapon to mindelay, whatever). There are some exceptions (characters like say FeVM without any other floor books), which have a really hard time in lair. But it's a decent general rule. (that's what goodcoolguy means).

Thus, reaching Lair:2 and being able to clear the rest of lair easily like that is a decent wincon unless you are really bad at skilling and fuck up your free XP.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Thus, reaching Lair:2 and being able to clear the rest of lair easily like that is a decent wincon unless you are really bad at skilling and fuck up your free XP.

Accentuation is mine. Yes, if you can easily clear Lair and have MR+++ for Orc (paralyzers) and late Dungeon (paralyzers/banishers), you are unlikely to die in Orc and late Dunegon. Though you still can easily die in Lair branches, Vaults, Depths and Zot.
Also Lair 1 is very different from Lair 5, I often get several packs of Death Yaks/Blink Frogs etc. on the latter.
I get the "cleared Lair 1 means won the game" meme as players are playing too easy (for them) combos.

I actually have one Fe game stuck in Lair because it is harder than before Lair and I don't enjoy this level of difficulty currently, that single game is enough to prove that the meme is wrong.

[dpeg]

This won't happen. Here's a reason that has not come up (in the other relevant thread) yet: every new game begins with two choices, each out of about two dozen options. That's already a hefty cognitive burden for a new player. Adding a god selection screen just adds to this. Note that while some species are intricate, gods are basically ways to change the ruleset -- some of them are significantly harder to grok than even Vampires or Formicids.

Looking at the game like a new player (well, as good as I can), it's good that your Crawl career has this first milestone where you see altars and make it to the temple. I think that's worth a lot.

[VeryAngryFelid]

This won't happen. Here's a reason that has not come up (in the other relevant thread) yet: every new game begins with two choices, each out of about two dozen options. That's already a hefty cognitive burden for a new player. Adding a god selection screen just adds to this. Note that while some species are intricate, gods are basically ways to change the ruleset -- some of them are significantly harder to grok than even Vampires or Formicids.

Looking at the game like a new player (well, as good as I can), it's good that your Crawl career has this first milestone where you see altars and make it to the temple. I think that's worth a lot.

That does not necessarily add a new screen. You can get "Press g to pick god for the cost of random bad mutation" near other messages on last pre-game screen so if player does not press g, they play usual game, nothing is changed and no extra key presses are needed.

I don't suggest to change Temple in any way, it's just an extra option for those players who may want to play Chei from turn 1 or Xom as caster or Lugonu as Enchanter etc.

[goodcoolguy]

What I mean is that sometimes you enter lair and the stairs are swarming with monsters you can't kill. This can be a problem for some characters and in these cases the conventional wisdom on reaching lair no longer applies, in my opinion. If you've cleared lair 1, though, your odds of getting three sufficiently bad lair 2 stairs are nearly zero.

[chequers]

"That does not necessarily add a new screen."

It does. "New screen" is merely shorthand for "new decision". Every decision adds cognitive burden to a new player.

[Hirsch I]

and even if it were a good idea to let people pick a god at the start (remove zealots, plz), I can't think of a more ham-fisted way than "get a mut later in the game to pretend it has a drawback."

[Shtopit]

Every decision adds cognitive burden to a new player.

OMG my burden.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj8lRssjN48

[dpeg]

OMG my burden.

Watch a player new to roguelikes fire up the first game of Crawl (and don't say anything) before making this comment.

[VeryAngryFelid]

"That does not necessarily add a new screen."

It does. "New screen" is merely shorthand for "new decision". Every decision adds cognitive burden to a new player.

Why do we have "viable species", "viable character", "random species", "random character", "pick background first" on the first screen while creating character? Are those 5 decisions player needs to make?
Nope, those are options, they are optional, I started using them after 2 years of playing

Spoiler: show

(before that I was not even aware what they do, I literally failed to notice them and thus ignored)

. Exactly like starting god can be.

[VeryAngryFelid]

and even if it were a good idea to let people pick a god at the start (remove zealots, plz), I can't think of a more ham-fisted way than "get a mut later in the game to pretend it has a drawback."

This can be fixed in many ways. My initial idea was to give non-curable Frail 1 from turn 1 but then I thought it might be too cruel and deterministic.

[VeryAngryFelid]

What I mean is that sometimes you enter lair and the stairs are swarming with monsters you can't kill. This can be a problem for some characters and in these cases the conventional wisdom on reaching lair no longer applies, in my opinion. If you've cleared lair 1, though, your odds of getting three sufficiently bad lair 2 stairs are nearly zero.

I explored dungeon in this case, there is no much difference between Lair and Dungeon for some (many?) characters. Some even enter Orc before Lair because the former is easier.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Maybe add "Random character with random god" to that list? No penalty is needed in this case because player does not select god. It's similar to having random altar (the one with 3 random gods) right near dungeon entrance.

[CanOfWorms]

Every decision adds cognitive burden to a new player.

OMG my burden.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj8lRssjN48

the white draconian's burden