Crawl late game is easier than its early game


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Crypt Cleanser

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Post Monday, 22nd August 2016, 20:51

Crawl late game is easier than its early game

This is a clear oversight on the part of the devs.

Most games get harder as you progress. In mario you have tougher levels. In jenga the tower gets less structurally sound. In real life you get older and have more responsibilities.

In the world of crawl everything is reversed. Early game is hard and the game just gets progressively more easy. If you've beaten the gamd once and hit lair, its gg unless you hit the wrong button or go into a mild fugue state while playing. This is what makes the game feel like a slog. Once you reach a certain point difficulty diminishes and all you have to do is hit the right keys and stay awake for about 10 hours total.

When will this glaring, objective and scientifically verified problem be fixed?

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Post Monday, 22nd August 2016, 20:57

Re: Crawl late game is easier than its early game

lethediver wrote:When will this glaring, objective and scientifically verified problem be fixed?


Does this mean you're being sarcastic? I don't know, I'm one of those who has just as hard a time with late game as early game. Early game is just a lot more fun because there's no risk of throwing away hours invested in a character by killing it.

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Post Monday, 22nd August 2016, 21:00

Re: Crawl late game is easier than its early game

moocowmoocow wrote:Early game is just a lot more fun because there's no risk of throwing away hours invested in a character by killing it.


>Implying winrates don't matter

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Post Monday, 22nd August 2016, 21:22

Re: Crawl late game is easier than its early game

lethediver wrote:Once you reach a certain point difficulty diminishes and all you have to do is hit the right keys and stay awake for about 10 hours total.

When will this glaring, objective and scientifically verified problem be fixed?

yes, it is generally accepted that what you need to win at crawl isn't "good play" so much as "rMistakes+++", and the only way to fix it is to make a completely different game instead

(but it's worth noting that human players can win the game in under an hour)
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 22nd August 2016, 21:34

Re: Crawl late game is easier than its early game

Yeah, Zot:5 is probably the easiest level in the whole game. I think the last time I died there was in Linley's Dungeon Crawl about 15 years ago...
DCSS: 77: ...SpWz{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDAr
HaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE
{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWr
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Monday, 22nd August 2016, 21:38

Re: Crawl late game is easier than its early game

You should try gnollcrawl, you don't get XP but you also only fight against gnolls, so the fun stays fresh!

The problem is hard to solve because of how many options Crawl gives you as you rise in XP and piety. You get a species which may develop abilities, a god, evokables, spells, potions, flavoured weapons, jewellery, swappable resistances... Games like Super Mario and Metal Slug are easy to make harder as you progress, because you don't unlock anything, your character always has the same few abilities, but he is forced to use them with always smaller tolerance for mistakes. Eventual power ups are given in chosen spots, and there is low to no randomization. But to have a late game with a zillion options to get out of trouble, random drops + money and shops and have it be as difficult as the beginning, is really, really hard.
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Crypt Cleanser

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Post Monday, 22nd August 2016, 21:47

Re: Crawl late game is easier than its early game

Gnollcrawl should become the main branch tbqh. Its a lot closer to a good roguelike than the vanilla game

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Post Monday, 22nd August 2016, 22:08

Re: Crawl late game is easier than its early game

Well, in late game with low enough MR you can be paralyzed by an alich on zot 5, then killed in a variety of ways. On the other hand, it's almost impossible to die on the turn an enemy enters LOS on D1.

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Post Monday, 22nd August 2016, 22:11

Re: Crawl late game is easier than its early game

While I agree that crawl late game is too easy, the general progression from hard to easier does make some sense. If you lose a character you've been playing for 2 minutes that's clearly less frustrating than a character you've been playing for 2 hours, and I think the difficulty should reflect that.

>Implying winrates don't matter


implying they do in a world that contains speedrunning, realtime speedrunning, wn scumming and alcohol

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Post Monday, 22nd August 2016, 22:42

Re: Crawl late game is easier than its early game

lethediver wrote:Gnollcrawl should become the main branch tbqh. Its a lot closer to a good roguelike than the vanilla game
gnollcrawl is quite a lot easier and more binary than standard crawl once you figure it out. play as spriggan or centaur berserker(spriggans can move at 0.9 movespeed once slowed from berserking, centaurs 1.0, so you can berserk and then walk away), use only polearms and only spear(anything else will be slower than 1.0 attack speed letting gnolls without polearms sometimes step a tile and hit you instead of being safely kitable), kill all gnolls by either kiting and hitting or if they have polearm berserk/hex wand/blowgun.

once you find hex wands game is over unless you fuck up. gnollcrawl, like normal crawl, also has inverse difficulty curve, because enemies do not get stronger(gnoll sergeants+shamans+grum show up, but only in zot, and still have bad MR and are trivialized by wands of confuse/para/etc., or things like BiA), but you do. not because of levels but because you gradually find helpful loot(spear with brand, enchant scrolls, hex wands, better armor). it's a fun diversion but there's not as much to it compared to normal crawl, and it's extremely unbalanced both in terms of things like vaults, and in terms of what works well. it's only "harder" than normal in the sense that there's a higher proportion of random unavoidable deaths due to tiny HP pool.

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Post Monday, 22nd August 2016, 23:53

Re: Crawl late game is easier than its early game

Better a one dimensional game whose difficulty only decreases by 80% by the end game than a multi dimensional game whose "difficulty" quickly reduces itself to near 0 and the only challenge is not killing yourself out of sheer boredom or inertia

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 00:13

Re: Crawl late game is easier than its early game

The game actually does get harder your character just happens to be properly filtered by then (ie its the bottle theory the other characters have died earlier on). Its also because people grind and clear all floors.

The whole zot 5 is "easy" is ridiculously wrong. It requires knowing a lot about the game. There is very little knowledge required to survive early D.
Also as you ascend it becomes an absolute terrifying nightmare. I just died with 15 rune orb run. Yes laugh at me but when you have shit loads of muts it happens.

Yeah sure the game is easy for a 3 rune if you just lure out every monster one by one and press "o" and kill all floors but the game does really get harder later on particularly for 15 rune.

V5 is also easily one of the most ridiculously difficult parts of the game. If you think it is easy its because you are probably grinding as mentioned earlier or just playing OP species + god combos.

Every game should be won under 100k turns and there should be some kind of doom end of days timer that progressively gets worse (I know there is sort of one but amp it) for all the people that complain the game is easy. Punish the grinders.
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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 00:43

Re: Crawl late game is easier than its early game

lethediver wrote:Better a one dimensional game whose difficulty only decreases by 80% by the end game than a multi dimensional game whose "difficulty" quickly reduces itself to near 0 and the only challenge is not killing yourself out of sheer boredom or inertia
at least in normal crawl you're experiencing different things later on

ps: if you want another route to victory in gnollcrawl, and the least fun you will ever have in playing a videogame, you can go fedhas. important note: you must pick a character start which starts with at least 2 max MP, because you cannot level and so unless you get extremely lucky and find MP ring your max MP will be stuck there, and evolution costs 2 MP. all the starts which start with 2+ max MP in gnollcrawl either blow or are abyssal knight, and if you want fedhas you can't use a zealot start because wrath will inevitably kill you, shortly after you reach temple(which is on d1-2 in gnollcrawl). so go centaur venom mage(least garbage gnollcrawl caster start), and have fun with 14% miscast spell which usually doesn't actually do damage and a 3 MP pool you must kite for long periods of time to regain.

over 4,500 turns of sting kiting later, enjoy your ability to make wandering mushrooms, which trivialize everything in the game.
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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 00:47

Re: Crawl late game is easier than its early game

Shard1697 wrote:
lethediver wrote:Better a one dimensional game whose difficulty only decreases by 80% by the end game than a multi dimensional game whose "difficulty" quickly reduces itself to near 0 and the only challenge is not killing yourself out of sheer boredom or inertia
at least in normal crawl you're experiencing different things later on

ps: if you want another route to victory in gnollcrawl, and the least fun you will ever have in playing a videogame, you can go fedhas. important note: you must pick a character start which starts with at least 2 max MP, because you cannot level and so unless you get extremely lucky and find MP ring your max MP will be stuck there, and evolution costs 2 MP. all the starts which start with 2+ max MP in gnollcrawl either blow or are abyssal knight, and if you want fedhas you can't use a zealot start because wrath will inevitably kill you, shortly after you reach temple(which is on d1-2 in gnollcrawl). so go centaur venom mage(least garbage gnollcrawl caster start), and have fun with 14% miscast spell which usually doesn't actually do damage and a 3 MP pool you must kite for long periods of time to regain.

over 4,500 turns of sting kiting later, enjoy your ability to make wandering mushrooms, which trivialize everything in the game.
Image

I did this except with CeAm. It was an experience, but not one I'm likely to repeat.

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 01:00

Re: Crawl late game is easier than its early game

TrBe was very easy in gnollcrawl too. With intrinsic gourmand you can berserk whenever you want and you can fully explore all floors because you don't need luck with good play (pack splitting, luring, pillar dancing and stairdancing).
Unfortunately gnollcrawl is long and repetitive so optimal play is even more annoying than in standard crawl.

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 05:34

Re: Crawl late game is easier than its early game

lethediver wrote:Better a one dimensional game whose difficulty only decreases by 80% by the end game than a multi dimensional game whose "difficulty" quickly reduces itself to near 0 and the only challenge is not killing yourself out of sheer boredom or inertia

this seems slightly hyperbolic, to me.
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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 05:50

Re: Crawl late game is easier than its early game

lethediver wrote:Better a one dimensional game whose difficulty only decreases by 80% by the end game than a multi dimensional game whose "difficulty" quickly reduces itself to near 0 and the only challenge is not killing yourself out of sheer boredom or inertia


We have a player who won 19 Naga Wanderers in a row. Look at any of the top winners: I think it is clear that Crawl is still fun to play even for these players who are consistently winning or have already won frequently.

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 07:22

Re: Crawl late game is easier than its early game

Shard1697 wrote:
lethediver wrote:Better a one dimensional game whose difficulty only decreases by 80% by the end game than a multi dimensional game whose "difficulty" quickly reduces itself to near 0 and the only challenge is not killing yourself out of sheer boredom or inertia
at least in normal crawl you're experiencing different things later on

ps: if you want another route to victory in gnollcrawl, and the least fun you will ever have in playing a videogame, you can go fedhas. important note: you must pick a character start which starts with at least 2 max MP, because you cannot level and so unless you get extremely lucky and find MP ring your max MP will be stuck there, and evolution costs 2 MP. all the starts which start with 2+ max MP in gnollcrawl either blow or are abyssal knight, and if you want fedhas you can't use a zealot start because wrath will inevitably kill you, shortly after you reach temple(which is on d1-2 in gnollcrawl). so go centaur venom mage(least garbage gnollcrawl caster start), and have fun with 14% miscast spell which usually doesn't actually do damage and a 3 MP pool you must kite for long periods of time to regain.

over 4,500 turns of sting kiting later, enjoy your ability to make wandering mushrooms, which trivialize everything in the game.
Image


Don't Sp and DE get +2MP at level 1? It's probably easier to have MP as one of those than as a Ce

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 09:00

Re: Crawl late game is easier than its early game

Late game is much easier because a) you have lots of consumables and evocables, and b) the rate your health goes down is much slower. In the early game you often find yourself in a tricky situation with no obvious way to escape, and many run of the mill monsters can easily kill you in 2 hits. Finding late game harder is most likely due to a combination of playing combos that can crush early dungeon with minimal concentration, poor character development, not making good use of consumables, and unfamiliarity making late game enemies more threatening than they need to be.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 09:13

Re: Crawl late game is easier than its early game

I think for a lot of players it's also a matter of time investment. One late-game death wastes more of your playtime than a hundred of earlygame ones, and lots of players don't care about winrate.

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 17:40

Re: Crawl late game is easier than its early game

The faster you play the less time you wasted upon your death.

The same frustation of losing a character after 10 hours of playing could be equivalent to the frustration of losing a character that has "already won" due to triping over a road block due to mindless gameplay. In other words, thats a silly excuse for making the game easier as you progress.

The main thing is, to some extent its the game's consequence that it becomes easier due to having combos that grows in power differently.

Edit: That its also the player's fault for gambling into choices that fits his playstyle better or that will benefit him later while ignoring what the dungeon provides before that.
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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 17:53

Re: Crawl late game is easier than its early game

I just died in Zot 5. Boy, lategame is so easy!

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