What is the difference betweel Hell, Pan, and Abyss?

[Queen Cassie]

Nevermind the mechanics, I'm well aware of those. I mean flavor wise. They're all full of demons, right? Well, the Abyss has some demons, and also some strange monsters unique to it, but it's still implied to be another demonic realm, given the existence of Lugonu.

Is it just drawing from old D&D ideals of Lawful Evil, Neutral Evil, and Chaotic Evil? I imagine that was definitely the inspiration.

But what I don't really understand is what the difference is in the game's world. For example, look at Hell and Pan. Both are full of demons, in many cases the same demons. Brimstone Fiends are at home with Cerebov just as much as with Asmodeus. Tzitzimitl hang out with Gloorx and Ereshkagil both happily.

Is Pan supposed to be the realm of the gods? The Shining One has his own floor in Pan, a rather strange thing given that only Beogh and Jiyva have similar areas dedicated to them, and in the cases of both of those things it's because they're worshipped by a very limited population. Being a worshipper of The Shining One (or Zin or Elyvilon for that matter) doesn't stop the angels and daevas from attacking you. So is it supposed to be a form of heaven? Is it that they attack you only because you are alive, and you can only be present in that realm if you're dead? But then why allow a TSO worshipper to freely kill them all? It was very strange and surrealistic from a flavor standpoint to waltz in there with my MiFi of TSO and smash everything to pieces. The only thing TSO didn't let me do was butcher an apis, otherwise everything normal was game.

So do the other gods have floors in Pan, and we just never see them? If we wandered around for long enough (flavor wise) would we eventually maybe come across, say, Fedhas' realm? Or discover where Ashenzari has been shackled?

Is Hell supposed to be the realm of damned souls, in the Biblical sense? If so why do the Hell effects seem to imply you, as a not-demon, aren't even supposed to be there? Now granted it could be argued they're talking to you as a living mortal, and if you were dead they might not necessarily want you to leave. (Who would want to see their toy disappear, after all.) But I don't get that feeling. They say very specific things. "You do not belong here!" The fabric of the Hells themselves attacking, hostile to the existence of something that is not a demon.

I haven't touched too much on the Abyss since I originally intended to just explore Hell and Pan, but let's look at that too. It's chaotic, it's weird, it's as if the nightmares and dreams of all living souls were given a physical realm, a place to exist. It's at least partially inspired by C'thulu mythos, much like the Abyss of D&D, but unlike Hell or Pan it feels as though nothing is in control. Even Lugonu seems to be more just flailing widely, casting chaos everywhere, not even bothering to keep things sensical. The Abyssal Rune having a vault surround it, an intact structure that doesn't change or alter itself, feels weird. Why is that? Is it the same reason the Rune can guide you out? I figured that was purely a gameplay mechanic, but is the flavor argument that the Rune is some sort of stabilizing agent, a piece of Order amidst the Chaos, hence why a structure can remain intact around it, and why it tries to lead any who hold it to escape.

I could go on about the Runes too but we'll save that for another topic. Also I apologize if this sort of thing has been discussed to death and gads of information lay elsewhere on the forums. I figured it would be interesting to start up a discussion.

So! What're your ideas?

[Shtopit]

I see the Abyss as more akin to pure, infinite chaos, with Lugonu aiming to spread it to everything ordered, and each level of Pandemonium as a parcel of the Abyss which the (evil) Demon Lords managed to claim for themselves to create their own realities, with Holy Pan being the Good Gods's outpost across the chaotic plans, born in a similar way, only conquered by a Seraph. After all, Abyss levels are infinite, and Lugonu's power has to be finite, so some parts cannot be controlled by him.

I think you are on it when you see the problem of Hell as you not being the soul of one of the dead. If you ever read Dante's Inferno, the denizens of Hell are pretty clear on the fact that Dante shouldn't be there because he isn't dead and oppose a number of problems (Charon won't let him on his barge, and some asshole demon will call on Medusa to have him turned into stone when he tries to enter the City of Dis.) He only can make it because Vergil is guiding him and, once, because an angel is sent to his help to open the gates of Dis. Pity that you don't have any guide, or omnipotent being watching over you when you enter in Crawl's Hell! I guess that the visions you see are the flickers of the souls who dwell there and are no undead, so they are generally imperceptible for you, and you occasionally witness parts of their damnation.

Others think that Hell isn't Hell and that the Lords of Hell are actually crazy rich crazy people who have built their own place in the Dungeon. I personally see it as something in between - I don't think that's Hell's complete deal, but it may very well be all that Hell needs from this dimension to exist in its own, unreachable dimension, or some sort of true image of Hell created by the powers of Hell to guard the runes.

What the runes do is a good question. They do appear to create some sort of order. My theory is that they want to be reunited with the Orb, and that the Orb itself is the entity that binds the planes together. If it were abused or tampered with, no gates to other dimensions could be opened any more: this is why the Demon Lords take it so bad. Lugonu has its own ways of crossing interplanar barriers and Hell follows its own rules, but the Demon Lords risk finding themselves locked in their own little pockets of reality, so they flood the Dungeon with their underlings (and try to murder you).

[Malevolent]

My personal theories are:

Pandemonium is Makhleb's personal domain. Makhleb seems to be the lord of the demons, as evidenced by the fact that you can summon them, and thus it makes sense that Makhleb is the overlord/overlady of Pandemonium as well. Makhleb does not actually care much to rule or defend their domain - to them, Pandemonium is just a shrine of destruction, a place where demons are locked in eternal struggle with one another - or with The Shining One's minions - for the destructive god's amusement. However, the Pandemonium lords themselves jealously guard their domains and fight both each other and outside forces for influence.

It is quite possible that Pandemonium itself was carved out of the Abyss, due to their similarly infinite and chaotic nature, as well as the fact that there are numerous passages to the Abyss from Pandemonium. The role of the TSO outpost is unclear - what I find most plausible, however, is that they are fallen angels and Daevas, no longer in TSO's service but rather renegade souls who have carved out their own corner of the Pandemonium, much to Makhleb's amusement who likes seeing the fallen angels engage in "ideological wars" with the daemons.

Abyss is just a mess. It does not serve a purpose. Nothing in there serves a purpose, save for the rune.

Hell is the creation of the four hell lords who carved their realms out of the dungeon and warped it to their purposes. The four lords hold near-divine power, able to assault intruders in various ways. The demons inside them are merely servants bound to the lords - other creatures, such as iron giants and hell hounds, are bound to their respective Hell realms by other contracts. What the four lords do in their spare time in unclear, but perhaps they regularly hold friendly battles in the Vestibule, pitting their demons against each other in a weird version of gladiatorial cockfighting. Geryon's role is unclear. Perhaps he too is just a bound slave, but perhaps he is a fifth, neutral agent, sworn to protect the Vestibule from outsiders.

How do the Orb and the runes come into play? It is one possibility that the Orb is the artifact that holds Pandemonium together. If the Orb is removed from the dungeon, Pandemonium too will collapse. At any rate, it is clear that Pandemonium has vested interests in preserving the Orb. One possibility I can see: the gods had fought great conflicts in an attempt to preserve or destroy Pandemonium, and as part of a peace agreement, Pandemonium had been (mostly) contained into the realm as we know it in Crawl, with the Orb itself removed from the Pandemonium lords' grasp and placed into the Realm of Zot, as a neutral location. It had been sealed with fifteen runes, five of them being retained with Pandemonium and ten others guarded by the representatives of various other gods and mortal forces. The Realm of Zot would only be accessed henceforth with the agreement of the holders of all fifteen runes - as only the fifteen runes together would open the seal leading to the Realm of Zot. The thing is, however, the magic of the seal is ancient, weak and leaking away - three runes are enough to overload the seal's magic and destroy the seal, opening up access. Due to an agreement of no direct interference between the gods, most mortals do not yet understand this, as nobody has attempted to open up the Realm of Zot since the Pandemonium Wars.

[duvessa]

When I clicked on this topic title I expected a punchline, not fanfiction

[PleasingFungus]

this is now the official Summer 2016 Crawl Fanfiction Thread.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

It was very strange and surrealistic from a flavor standpoint to waltz in there with my MiFi of TSO and smash everything to pieces. The only thing TSO didn't let me do was butcher an apis, otherwise everything normal was game.

This is great and a highlight of Crawl's oddball flavor. You should not be complaining, if you are.

[Arrhythmia]

this is now the official Summer 2016 Crawl Fanfiction Thread.

let me start then



She had already drifted off to the cold damp sounds of the Pits rising above her when a flash of violet light on her eyelids brought her back to full awareness. She held her hands out, the pale swirling energy already gathering within its magical envelope.

"You wouldn't destroy your favorite pupil, would you my Queen?" said a voice Lamia hadn't heard in years. Its owner glided in accompanied by a puff of purple smoke, and Lamia let the energy dissipate with a fond grin. Vashnia had returned.

But who was this dangerous looking nagess? Lamia remembered guiding her to the lowest levels of the Dungeon, conducting the necessary transactions to reach Abyssal gateways safely, packing the meat rations and scrolls she would need to find her way through that confusing plane. That Vashnia had worn the gilded barding of her mothers, had kept her gorgeous hair up twisted around a wand of haste, a wand she had zapped at her mentor to goad her. At her lover to spur her to greater heights.

Lamia reached out her hand to brush Vashnia's cheek. Above the young warrior's eyes, a bandana held back wild tangles; below the smug smile, a snug dress made of some unidentifiable Abyssal creature's scales hugged her bosom. Lamia's hand wandered. "Your queen--"

"Lamia--"

The Queen of the Naga's hand found a fistful of hair. Lamia pulled Vashnia to her, drew her into a kiss, her body snaking around her subject's. "We do not intend," Lamia said against Vashnia's lips, "to listen to long tales of Abyssal training, of translocative lessons learned--"

"Lamia, list--"

"Of lessons learned by young marksnaga who should've been home--" Lamia felt a jolt in her stomach and gasped. She pulled back, her hands both falling away from Vashnia's neck to the crossbow in her pupil's hands, her lover's hands, her killer's.

"Lamia," Vashnia said, coiling herself around Lamia's back even as she fit another arrow against the crossbow's string. "As usual, too in a hurry to listen." Lamia coughed and Vashnia smiled at the spray of blood; her bandana's dye required constant attention. "Too in a hurry to notice your own dethroning."

Lamia could only take a halting breath in response. "Trog's Teat--" she managed.

"I did learn lessons, Lamia." The door to Lamia's chambers opened wider, a squad of marksnagas looking around the door. "Lessons at the hands of the ancient liches that built these halls. Do you know what they whispered in those dusty voices worn down by the ages?"

Lamia found herself searching Vashnia's hair, feeling for the wand that could save her, but she could hardly see the faces of the marksnagas gathering about her, couldn't feel their arrows sinking into her chest. That other Vashnia, such a pretty naga. With the bright knob of that quick wand flashing above her head.

The ruler's body slumped to the ground. Vashnia dropped her crossbow to adjust a strand of the golden hair framing her old lover's face. "The queen is dead," she said, moving the hair about. "Long live the queen."

[Arrhythmia]

one of these days i'm just going to sit down and memorize that thing like the homeric poets of old so i can bust it out whenever someone asks.

[Queen Cassie]

When I clicked on this topic title I expected a punchline, not fanfiction

Heh, I see why. I'm just that kind of gal though: I like to dig into a world and figure out why it works the way it does. I'm a huge nerd like that.

this is now the official Summer 2016 Crawl Fanfiction Thread.

I am okay with this.

This is great and a highlight of Crawl's oddball flavor. You should not be complaining, if you are.

Oh no, quite the opposite. It was pretty entertaining, in its own way. Particularly having an angel buddy call down the wrath of TSO on the Seraph. But it also made me think about why, from an in-universe standpoint, things would work like that. (It could always be seen as a test, for example, of your character.)

I see the Abyss as more akin to pure, infinite chaos, with Lugonu aiming to spread it to everything ordered, and each level of Pandemonium as a parcel of the Abyss which the (evil) Demon Lords managed to claim for themselves to create their own realities, with Holy Pan being the Good Gods's outpost across the chaotic plans, born in a similar way, only conquered by a Seraph. After all, Abyss levels are infinite, and Lugonu's power has to be finite, so some parts cannot be controlled by him.

I think you are on it when you see the problem of Hell as you not being the soul of one of the dead. If you ever read Dante's Inferno, the denizens of Hell are pretty clear on the fact that Dante shouldn't be there because he isn't dead and oppose a number of problems (Charon won't let him on his barge, and some asshole demon will call on Medusa to have him turned into stone when he tries to enter the City of Dis.) He only can make it because Vergil is guiding him and, once, because an angel is sent to his help to open the gates of Dis. Pity that you don't have any guide, or omnipotent being watching over you when you enter in Crawl's Hell! I guess that the visions you see are the flickers of the souls who dwell there and are no undead, so they are generally imperceptible for you, and you occasionally witness parts of their damnation.

Others think that Hell isn't Hell and that the Lords of Hell are actually crazy rich crazy people who have built their own place in the Dungeon. I personally see it as something in between - I don't think that's Hell's complete deal, but it may very well be all that Hell needs from this dimension to exist in its own, unreachable dimension, or some sort of true image of Hell created by the powers of Hell to guard the runes.

What the runes do is a good question. They do appear to create some sort of order. My theory is that they want to be reunited with the Orb, and that the Orb itself is the entity that binds the planes together. If it were abused or tampered with, no gates to other dimensions could be opened any more: this is why the Demon Lords take it so bad. Lugonu has its own ways of crossing interplanar barriers and Hell follows its own rules, but the Demon Lords risk finding themselves locked in their own little pockets of reality, so they flood the Dungeon with their underlings (and try to murder you).

I had a hunch it might've been based upon Dante's Inferno in that way. I, to my shame, have not actually read it (I've never been much of a fan of religious-based literature, not being religious myself) but I know enough about it that I get what you're saying.

As for the the Orb being the binder of the planes, I quite like that idea. It would definitely explain why it's locked away so tightly and protected by so many different species. It makes me wonder what happens, then, when it's removed from the Dungeon entirely. I have a sneaking suspicion it might accidentally destroy the universe if used by the PC improperly.

My personal theories are:

Pandemonium is Makhleb's personal domain. Makhleb seems to be the lord of the demons, as evidenced by the fact that you can summon them, and thus it makes sense that Makhleb is the overlord/overlady of Pandemonium as well. Makhleb does not actually care much to rule or defend their domain - to them, Pandemonium is just a shrine of destruction, a place where demons are locked in eternal struggle with one another - or with The Shining One's minions - for the destructive god's amusement. However, the Pandemonium lords themselves jealously guard their domains and fight both each other and outside forces for influence.

It is quite possible that Pandemonium itself was carved out of the Abyss, due to their similarly infinite and chaotic nature, as well as the fact that there are numerous passages to the Abyss from Pandemonium. The role of the TSO outpost is unclear - what I find most plausible, however, is that they are fallen angels and Daevas, no longer in TSO's service but rather renegade souls who have carved out their own corner of the Pandemonium, much to Makhleb's amusement who likes seeing the fallen angels engage in "ideological wars" with the daemons.

Abyss is just a mess. It does not serve a purpose. Nothing in there serves a purpose, save for the rune.

Hrm, definitely not a bad notion. Both of you had the same idea re Pan being an extension of the Abyss, and that makes a lot of sense. Particularly since you can escape Pan into the Abyss anyway, but both have separate exits to the Dungeon as well. I would imagine we'd see more Makhleb altars around though. Or maybe I'm just missing them since I tend to not spend time in Pan apart from getting the runes.

Hell is the creation of the four hell lords who carved their realms out of the dungeon and warped it to their purposes. The four lords hold near-divine power, able to assault intruders in various ways. The demons inside them are merely servants bound to the lords - other creatures, such as iron giants and hell hounds, are bound to their respective Hell realms by other contracts. What the four lords do in their spare time in unclear, but perhaps they regularly hold friendly battles in the Vestibule, pitting their demons against each other in a weird version of gladiatorial cockfighting. Geryon's role is unclear. Perhaps he too is just a bound slave, but perhaps he is a fifth, neutral agent, sworn to protect the Vestibule from outsiders.

How do the Orb and the runes come into play? It is one possibility that the Orb is the artifact that holds Pandemonium together. If the Orb is removed from the dungeon, Pandemonium too will collapse. At any rate, it is clear that Pandemonium has vested interests in preserving the Orb. One possibility I can see: the gods had fought great conflicts in an attempt to preserve or destroy Pandemonium, and as part of a peace agreement, Pandemonium had been (mostly) contained into the realm as we know it in Crawl, with the Orb itself removed from the Pandemonium lords' grasp and placed into the Realm of Zot, as a neutral location. It had been sealed with fifteen runes, five of them being retained with Pandemonium and ten others guarded by the representatives of various other gods and mortal forces. The Realm of Zot would only be accessed henceforth with the agreement of the holders of all fifteen runes - as only the fifteen runes together would open the seal leading to the Realm of Zot. The thing is, however, the magic of the seal is ancient, weak and leaking away - three runes are enough to overload the seal's magic and destroy the seal, opening up access. Due to an agreement of no direct interference between the gods, most mortals do not yet understand this, as nobody has attempted to open up the Realm of Zot since the Pandemonium Wars.

I think I quite like this idea! It ends up turning the Hells into just one of the many areas that defends the Orb, and thus defends Pandemonium. Perhaps the Hells were originally part of the Abyss as well, but unlike Pandemonium were more stabilized by the demigods that are the Hell lords?

So if we remove the Orb, then, as I speculated, all hell breaks loose. Pandemonium collapses, and in the process at the very least wipes out the entire Dungeon, if not a substantial portion of the mortal world. We have absolutely zero idea what the world above is like, so any speculation here would just be wild guessing. But it would be FUN wild guessing.

[Shtopit]

So, about Makhleb and demons. I personally thought that Makhleb simply was well liked by demons and that they therefore worship him, and that Makhleb asked demons, as conduct, to render themselves evokable by his mortal worshippers. The Hellbinder also has an altar to Makhleb, which I assumed was the way he gated all those demons.

Then I read Ignacio's description: "While a mortal cannot turn into a demon aside from divine intervention, this is what happened to Ignacio after Makhleb saw his love for his job and smiled upon him. He is now slated to continue the joy of his life for all eternity."

Makhleb isn't just well liked or worshipped or a ruler of demons (which he might be): he can actually turn people into demons. For all we know, all demons might have actually been mortals he warped.

[Shtopit]

I just decided that Meatsprint's PC is actually Ignacio.

[ManMan]

I just decided that Meatsprint's PC is actually Ignacio.

FR: Ignacio spawns with the Axe of Woe.

[Shtopit]

I just decided that Meatsprint's PC is actually Ignacio.

FR: Ignacio spawns with the Axe of Woe.

Waiting for WoeCrawl, where there are just gnolls wielding weapons of woe...

[jwoodward48ss]

Only if you get the +inf Arbalest of Despair.

[Sar]

Hell is christian, Pandemonium is pagan, Abyss is lovecraftian. They coexist because Crawl!

[Shtopit]

Ecumenism in Roguelikes: When Every Religion Can Kill You. (WERCKY)

Last night I was thinking. I suppose that Vehumet's name was inspired by Baphomet. Baphomet was the name of an evil spirit in the European Middle Ages. But this name actually was a distortion of Machometus, which is how Muhammad was called in Latin texts. The Middle Ages weren't big on political correctness, I guess.

[Shtopit]

Now, has anyone else noticed that all games are started at lvl 1? How is it possible that no one in the external world is lvl 2? My theory is that the Orb is the only thing that allows to get experience. The world outside is a bit like the real world. You get better, you get a bit stronger, a bit faster, but you can't get added levels, and you can't become ten or twenty times sturdier than a normal person.
What I mean is, it's the Orb that allows people to gain levels and RPG xp. It's the Orb that allows Draconian to gain colours. It's the Orb that makes your wings strong enough to fly. And that's why the PC wants it.