Race: Silent Spectre

[bcadren]

Wanting input on balance. I'm wanting them to be more powerful than Mu and less powerful than Gh (and since it's a third undead race those are the most comparable) so could people tell me which Stat/Apt set you think they should have, etc.

Flavour: Silent Spectres are non-corporeal undead (ghosts) with a natural talent for dodging and translocations. They exude a natural aura of silence to which they are partially immune, giving them difficulty casting, but not the inability.

Weirdness/Mutations:

• Non-Corporeal - You aren't completely solid.
  • Spriggan-Size for dodging purposes (though Human items slots).
  • Items cannot be cursed to you (phase through your hand).
  • Non-solid hands make unarmed combat difficult (no effect, just flavour behind bad UC apt). [Practical reason being the race allowing Transmutes while being undead and trying to avoid that being too powerful.]
  • rSticky (Sticky Flames don't stick to you).
  • You take 1/3 damage from Shatter.
  • You cannot be petrified.
  • You cannot be constricted.
  • You are immune to asphyxiation damage and can walk through deep water (at same malus as walking through shallow).
  • Note: Transmutations get their base size reduced by this mutation (largest effect on Dragon Form; no effect on Spider Form).
• Standard Undead Mutation - rN(Immune), rPois (Immune), rC+, rRot, no berserk, no Hunger. Potions allowed. Being non-corporeal makes the following deviations from the norm:
  
  • You cannot rot; mutation attempts instead acts like multiple temporary mutations (Wretched Star).
  • You may change your form (form spells work). [Undead + Dragon Form has a potential of being really powerful; but I think it's balanced by poor apts.]
• Demonic Speech - Silence gives -Wiz and a similar debuff to Invocations; instead of blocking both completely.
• Aura of Silence - You exude an unnatural quiet. Size varies with you level. Size 2 at start (You and adjacent creatures only); every 5th level adds one to the size (full LoS at 25). Excluding your immunities from Demonic Speech this acts normally on you (Stealth/2, no scrolls.)

God Restrictions:

• No Ashenzari (No Curses).
• No Good Gods (Undead).
• Unlike corporeal undead, you ARE allowed to worship Fedhas Madash (you aren’t defying death, you died normally). (This is thematically consistent with Fedhas Madash allowing use of the Spell "Death Channel".)

Stats: (One of the things I'm most unsure about.)

4 STR, 12 INT, 11 DEX; Gain 1 INT/DEX every 3rd level.

Aptitudes: (Unsure about this too. Flat Melee apts, semi-poor defenses, bad UC and good magic (which partially counteracts the -Wiz) seem to suit it)

  Code:

SS: Fighting: 0, Short: 0, Long: 0, Axes: 0, Maces: 0, Polearms: 0, Staves: 0, Slings: 0, Bows: 0, Xbows: 0, Throw: -1, Armour: -1, Dodge: 2, Stealth: 4, Shields: -0, UC: -2*, Splcast: 2!, Conj: 2, Hexes: 1, Charms: 1, Summ: 1, Nec: 2!, Tloc: 3, Tmut: -1, Fire: 0, Ice: 1, Air: 3!, Earth: -2, Poison: -2, Inv: -1*, Evo: -1, Exp: -1, HP: -2, MP: 1

Recommended Backgrounds:

Gladiator, Berserker, Enchanter, Warper, Transmuter, Ice Elementalist, Air Elementalist

Base Stealth:

24 (higher than any race); but their stealth is immediately halved [Creatures that are currently silenced get a stealth penalty] so effectively 12 (Draconian/Minotaur).

Base MR:

5 (same as Mu).

[Dungeoneer]

yes fucking please

[Queen Cassie]

I like it! The inherent silence would seem to preclude turning it into a full caster build unless you can find a source of Wiz to offset your innate -Wiz. (Would that work? I think it should, yeah?)

The lack of strength means it's not really the best at pure melee either. Seems like a hybrid, possibly well suited for ranged weapons in addition to support spells. Or I suppose you could go full Tornado but that could be difficult, because the inherent Silence combined with high dodging encourages you to get right up in the face of the enemy, and wail on them with close range spells and weapons, whereas the high magic aptitudes suggest staying at range, combined with a bow. It could go either way, I'd think.

The high stealth aptitude would encourage it being a stabber except for the silence. How would Dith's umbra interact? Could that be a good choice, to let it go full hog stabber?

It has a lot of interesting choices. I could see this being added pretty easily.

[chequers]

Saying "silence gives a different effect for this one player race" is confusing. I think it would be simpler to give them innate demonic casting (eg ignore silence) and lower spellcasting apts.

Why +2 spellcasting? Why is throwing the one "fighting" skill which isn't 0?

Could you replace the tiny size EV special-case with +5 dodging apt? Also, non-corporeal but can wear armour is really weird flavour-wise. Maybe it's simpler to give them normal interaction with armour & dodging.

I'm not sure if an undead transmuter is really a problem, so I propose 0 apt UC.

[bcadren]

Saying "silence gives a different effect for this one player race" is confusing. I think it would be simpler to give them innate demonic casting (eg ignore silence) and lower spellcasting apts.

Yea fair point that could work out to be similar for balance purposes, but simpler mechanically (less unique code; less for players to understand).

Why +2 spellcasting? Why is throwing the one "fighting" skill which isn't 0?

Thought semi-good magic apts with the innate -Wiz would end up with similar balance to one level of Wild Magic, which would be unique if used as a spellcaster.
On Throwing...uhh IDK I can change that back.

Could you replace the tiny size EV special-case with +5 dodging apt? Also, non-corporeal but can wear armour is really weird flavour-wise. Maybe it's simpler to give them normal interaction with armour & dodging.

Well the size factor interaction shouldn't be too complex. I was thinking a flat +4 size factor with a max clamp at 6 (which is spider form's already). With no form 0+4 = 4; in dragon form -8 +4 = -4. But 0 to 4 is less of a boost than -8 to -4 because of how dodging work. I don't think it's that complex. Size factor is already used for all non-standard-sized races. (Felid, Spriggan, Kobold, Halfling; Troll, Ogre).

I'm not sure if an undead transmuter is really a problem, so I propose 0 apt UC.

I'm very extended-minded when thinking about things and mostly I think undead transmutations could be strong because of the undead resistances while in dragon form with the amazing dodging could be too powerful. (rPois+ for Snake/Spider. rTorm, etc.) I guess when thinking about extended the apts don't really matter. But sure, I guess starting with it easy to get online then nerfing if it's too powerful is possible.

[genericpseudonym]

Size factor is already used by other races, but that doesn't make it good. It's still obtuse and spoilery (especially on a race that isn't actually small), whereas "high dodging apt" is much more straightforward.

If you're concerned about undead dragons being OP you could just make them lose their undead resistances while transmuted. Although turning into a normal dragon isn't as flavorful as turning into a ghost dragon...

[bcadren]

Size factor is already used by other races, but that doesn't make it good. It's still obtuse and spoilery (especially on a race that isn't actually small), whereas "high dodging apt" is much more straightforward.

If you're concerned about undead dragons being OP you could just make them lose their undead resistances while transmuted. Although turning into a normal dragon isn't as flavorful as turning into a ghost dragon...

In one of the older versions of this I had it as a passive +EV boost flavored similarly to Phase Shift, that when the miss was due to the boost and not base EV it would say it "phased through you" since you're semi-solid (not completely physical, but physical enough to manipulate items. I'm not sure exactly what it should be but...an EV boost of some kind.

[duvessa]

If you believe being undead is an advantage in Crawl, you need to learn more about playing the game before you try to design it

[HardboiledGargoyle]

what are the pros and cons of being undead?

does vulnerability to dispel undead and holy wrath and pearl dragon breath outweigh the typical undead resists?

e: oh right, Trog and Fedhas

[bcadren]

...Being undead is mostly a pro. Mummy/Necromutation's whole no potion's thing is a con; but Ghoul is one of the stronger races. Holy Wrath mostly doesn't matter; It'll make the odd Orc Warlord scarier and means you need to leave Holy Pan in a hurry, but it's such a rare brand, it mostly doesn't matter.

Dispel Undead...in the context of a 3 rune game this spell doesn't exist...the Unique Josephine has it and some Ancient Liches in Depths/Zot can randomly spawn with it and that's it. And I'd much rather be affected by dispel than torm in most extended locations (I don't think there's anywhere that has one without the other and several places have Torm without Dispel.) Sure Torm can't kill you DIRECTLY, but it's full LoS (where Dispel is a limited beam that can even be blocked by Summon Butterflies if you know how to use the spell correctly).

Now vampires, those are shit; being simultaneously alive and dead and being weak to Dispel AND Torm at the same time. Jesus. Vampire, worst race for extended. (Semi-powerful decent race for 3 rune game, but...)

Pros of being undead:
rN(Immune) - No effect from bolts of draining, weapons and melee of draining, vampires and enemies with vampiric weapons can't heal from attacking you.
rRot (immune) - Immune to clouds of foul miasma and having your HP rotted by Necrophages and the like.
rPois (immune) - Curare needles have no effect. Poisonous animals are less dangerous (not completely HARMLESS, but taking just melee damage from an adder instead of melee AND poison makes it less dangerous than normal).
rDrown (immune) - This mostly affects Shoals; water-type attacks do less damage (Merfolk Aquamancers, Water Elementals, etc.)
rTorm (immune) - You are immune to the HP halving effect found throughout extended and rarely in Zot (Curse Toes).
rMut (effectively) - Mutation attempts rot you instead of actually causing bad muts. This only affects a three rune game against Orbs of Fire and in Slime or Abyss, if one of those is chosen for 3rd rune. (And vs the odd nexoqec summoned by Kobold Demonologists in depths or Orc Sorcerers and Orc High Priests in Orc and Vaults). It's (generally) easier to deal with rot than mutations (mummies can be an exception due to their PERMANENT lack of potions;but certain god choices fix that).
rC+ - Single free level of cold resistance.
No Hunger (Ghouls are exception) - Lack of hungering means blaster caster and summoner builds can just keep spamming high level spells much easier than living characters can. (Late Game/Extended living conjurers may even have to eat mid-fight due to the absurdly high hunger costs of level 8 and 9 spells).

Undead Negatives:
Holy Weakness - Weak to a single rare weapon brand. Only a major issue if something powerful (like an orc warlord) spawns with it; this being because it's a multiplicative brand, not an additive one, therefore unlike (say distortion) you can't be harmed by something weak getting the brand. Also when doing extended you need to watch out for angels in the abyss and holy pan in pan.
Dispel Undead Weakness - You are affected by a rare spell, which is slightly less dangerous than Hellfire. (Similar damage, worse targeting pattern, much fewer creatures get it than hellfire.) Similar to hellfire this spell effectively doesn't exist outside of extended.
God Restrictions - No Fedhas, TSO, Zin or Ely. Only affects a fraction of games anyways, as most games a different god choice is optimal.
No Berserking - Mostly only affects the very early game as later the downsides of a Zerk (Paralysis, Slowing, lack of potions/scrolls/wands/etc. during the zerk) outweigh the positives.

---

In very short, being undead is a powerful boost for the most part with a few downsides. Every permanently undead race has it's own downsides to counteract the powerful boost AND the one transmutation that allows temporary undeadness has a pretty powerful downside as well (no potions); though IMHO, by the time you have the spell the only problem lack of potions tends to have is no Curing if something (most likely the effects of hell) confuses you.

[Hellmonk]

If the only con of being undead was not being able to go Fedhas, that would already more than counterbalance all of those immunities and resistances.

[duvessa]

notice that he mentions rDrown but not borg/ddoor

[HardboiledGargoyle]

yah because the necronomicon is more common than Shoals