The Tavern

But can't we please have slime knights? Pretty please? I'll never ask for the removal of any other zealots again. I won't even use the word "dev" again!

Lasty wrote:I confess I have a bit of a soft spot in my heart for abyss knights (the truncated introduction to abyss mechanics, as others have suggested), but if they were removed I would be fine with simply increasing the number of Abyssal overflow vaults.

I would like to see more Jiyva overflow altars.

dowan wrote:But can't we please have slime knights? Pretty please? I'll never ask for the removal of any other zealots again. I won't even use the word "dev" again!

Personally, I think it would make a lot more sense to just let Jiyva be a temple god (or make early Jiyva overflow altars much, much more common) than to add Slime Knights. Lugonu at least has a very strong flavor reason for not being a Temple god, and for having very few overflow vaults. Jiyva kind of does, but less so (more an issue with a lack of intelligent worshipers, rather than his/her relationship with the other gods, as far as I know). And from a gameplay standpoint, I see no reason for early Jiyva to be limited to a zealot. Adding Slime Knights just seems like a pointless compromise.

Either there's a good reason for early Jiyva altars to be incredibly rare, and things should stay as they are, or there isn't, and early Jiyva altars should become common. I can't think of a good reason, so I'm in favor of more early Jiyva altars (I've only ever played one Jiyva game before, when I got the slime temple on a transmuter, and I loved it and would absolutely play more Jiyva games if it didn't usually require waiting for the end of Lair). But I'm open to hearing someone defending Jiyva's current status (I believe dpeg has said he's in favor of Jiyva remaining a non-temple god with limited accessibility, but I don't remember why).

the best argument in favor of Slime Knight is it sounds really cute, and well that argument is good enough for me

Can't we just have the chance to convert to Jivvy like with Beogh?

Code:: The jelly quivers. "Would you like to hear more about our gelatinous lord and saviour?", says the jelly.

Code:: The jelly jiggles back and forth. You feel a strange urge to join the gelatinous dance...

Code:: The jelly starts singing in a querulous voice, "Here we go round the prickly pear Prickly pear prickly pear Here we go round the prickly pear At five o'clock in the morning."

Quazifuji wrote:Personally, I think it would make a lot more sense to just let Jiyva be a temple god (or make early Jiyva overflow altars much, much more common) than to add Slime Knights. Lugonu at least has a very strong flavor reason for not being a Temple god, and for having very few overflow vaults. Jiyva kind of does, but less so (more an issue with a lack of intelligent worshipers, rather than his/her relationship with the other gods, as far as I know). And from a gameplay standpoint, I see no reason for early Jiyva to be limited to a zealot. Adding Slime Knights just seems like a pointless compromise.

Either there's a good reason for early Jiyva altars to be incredibly rare, and things should stay as they are, or there isn't, and early Jiyva altars should become common. I can't think of a good reason, so I'm in favor of more early Jiyva altars (I've only ever played one Jiyva game before, when I got the slime temple on a transmuter, and I loved it and would absolutely play more Jiyva games if it didn't usually require waiting for the end of Lair). But I'm open to hearing someone defending Jiyva's current status (I believe dpeg has said he's in favor of Jiyva remaining a non-temple god with limited accessibility, but I don't remember why).

the entire point of jiyva is to be a 'secret', non-temple god. it's designed to be a god that you join relatively late, and it doesn't play very well early on. (for example, the slime loot eating tends to be much more frustrating before you've gotten your slots filled; i remember elliptic had strong opinions about the issues with early jiyva.)

however, "slime knight" is a very cute name, so i'm torn

dynast wrote:I would like to see more Jiyva overflow altars.

Some time ago, the opposite happened: Jiyva altars were made more rare and/or moved deeper (I forgot the details).

I still think that a guaranteed altar among Slime entrance and Slime:1-2 (or so) would be okay, but I've proposed that often enough and got show down that I won't do it again.

Perhaps see it like this: if you see an early Jiyva altar, *seriously* consider it.

What is wrong with a guaranteed altar next to the entrance? Why would anyone oppose that? Honestly, I see that as a good solution by itself. If I think "I wanna play Jiyva today", then at least I can make the choice of handicapping myself and staying atheist in the part of the game where one is the most vulnerable, in the hopes of getting all the Jiyva goodness later on. As it stands, I also have to dread missing out on the Jiyva altar. Or I can choose a god with a mild punishment (Xom, maybe Hep? Not sure how crippling the XP moratorium is on Hep) and switch if I get lucky.

Malevolent wrote:Or I can choose a god with a mild punishment (Xom, maybe Hep? Not sure how crippling the XP moratorium is on Hep) and switch if I get lucky.

Fedhas. Fedhas is already the best god for the part of the game you'll be in when you want to switch to Jiyva, and given that you're planning on switching anyway, you can blow your fruits early. Jiyva protects against every dangerous part of Fedhas' wrath; there's nothing particularly lucky about it, especially now that you can reliably get to the center of Slime:$ with blink scrolls if TRJ isn't cooperating.

Unless you want to be an undead jelly bro, there's no reason not to start with Fedhas if you're planning on looking for Jiyva. I'm not sure if this was intentional, but it works out pretty effectively.

dpeg wrote:Perhaps see it like this: if you see an early Jiyva altar, *seriously* consider it.

Imo the situation currently is that early Jiyva does not exist. At least I haven't seen a Jiyva altar in D in my last couple of hundred games. This is not fun. I also don't think that it is particularly interesting that you basically have to do Fedhas->Jiyva it you want Jiyva but don't want to cripple yourself during the early game.

Now if temple gods have guaranteed altars on D:1-9, why not give non-temple gods guaranteed altars on D:10-15?

The most interesting suggestion I've seen for a while is giving jellies the ability to convert characters to Jiyva.

As cool as the slime knight idea is, it's probably bad because having early loot/XP denied by jellies might leave characters underdeveloped. Though i have no idea why a guaranteed Jiyva altar near the Slime entrance isn't a thing already. You can't call Jiyva too good to have a guaranteed altar in a world where a game can be started with Trog.

As someone who likes Jiyva enough to play as an atheist until Slime appears, having a decent chance but not a guaranteed chance of the altar appearing is incredibly frustrating.

But seriously, though, Slime Knights.

What is actually needed are Snail Knights.

sknights (snail knights)

s'knights, yknow?

Here comes a new challenger!

"I have lived a slime knight, I will die a slime knight!"

What others fear, the slime knight embraces - constant change. Unshackled by the chains of society, free from suffocating order, the chaotic yet virtuous slime knight seeks to form a better world - a world where we are a part of something greater, where there is a mutual understanding that far exceeds the crudeness of words. Where he and his fellow slimes can thrive and consume items in peace. Where they are not hunted down by the ax-crazy lunatics of Zin that the ignorant masses who cast them out sent after them.

Shunning the over-reliance on items of the "order" people, the slime knight overcomes obstacles with a thick skin and an elastic heart. His body ever-adapting to new challenges, the slime knight can call slimes to let them consume items. Sharing one body with his fellow slimes, he is nourished and healed as they are, and when seriously hurt, slimes will split from his body to defend him, as he has defended them. His slimy blade can even bring true salvation to his foes by turning them into a slime.

Slime knights should exist for the same reason that chaos knights do. That a playstyle is suboptimal doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed.

Besides, early Slimify will save your life against a whole lot of things.

ZoFy wrote:As cool as the slime knight idea is, it's probably bad because having early loot/XP denied by jellies might leave characters underdeveloped. Though i have no idea why a guaranteed Jiyva altar near the Slime entrance isn't a thing already. You can't call Jiyva too good to have a guaranteed altar in a world where a game can be started with Trog.

Can someone please explain why Be is still a thing? You can get the best God for a 3 rune run in the game at the start but you can't even find alters for jiyva until lair and if that it might not even be outside slims pits?

Also please remove Be

You imply that balance is desirable in and of itself...

tabstorm wrote:You imply that balance is desirable in and of itself...

It is, unless the game is mechanically garbage in the first place. I don't think Crawl is nearly that bad.

Code:: You see a singing jelly standing in the slime light. "Jiyva she knows me, and she knows I'm right I've been talking to Jiyva all my life"

It should be a thing. Sk seems good for creating more challanging gameplay in early game or for the same reason Ck is in game.

I don't think that's how it would work at all.

Anyway, the whole reason Jiyva is popular is because it's a rare god with cool fluff. If Jiyva was a temple god, literally nobody would care or take it. As it is now, there's a certain mystique about the slime god which isn't available normally and can be killed.

tabstorm wrote:You imply that balance is desirable in and of itself...

It really is. The concept behind a game with various "classes" is that of having a number of different mechanics with which to solve problems and overcome difficulties in different ways. Difficulty is however normally set at a certain level, which is the one supposed to be entertaining, and, because of this, it should be the same for all of the classes.
In other words, one should be able to play a venom mage and a fighter with the same difficulty. Or worshipping Oka and Vehumet with the same difficulty, although the fact that many gods cater to specific audiences makes it more difficult to give them all-encompassing balance (I suppose that a minotaur fighter of Oka should be as capable as a deep elf conjurer of Vehumet). If one wants to have gods which do similar things, but of which one is easier (Trog vs Oka), it can work without ruining the game because a balanced alternative is present. However, if all gods are crazily different in strength, that's a bad signal, because I should be able to play a unique god like e.g. Chei or Dithmenos at standard difficulty, since their mechanics aren't available anywhere else.
Adding a button to set difficulty would be interesting (from 0 to 10, changing % of action success and monster health, with the current situation at 6), at least for offline play, because it would allow players to set the difficulty they find the most entertaining.

If you haven't gotten Jiyva from an early random altar, you can't really appreciate how bad slime knights would be. The slimes eat all your items and kill all your monsters. You get to lair with half the usual amount of consumables, no equipment, and experience level 7. It's incredibly bad. Much worse than a chaos knight start. This would break the concept of streaking random combos, for example.

Snail knights would be a better idea because you have a challenge-ish background and a speedrunning background all in one. They'd also have the cute factor.

I've gotten early Jiyva multiple times and won most of those attempts. Earlygame Jiyva always seemed fine to me - you get Slimify early, neutral jellies can be used to escape enemies and they don't start spawn normally unless you've explored a good half of the level, anyway.

Shtopit wrote:
tabstorm wrote:You imply that balance is desirable in and of itself...

It really is. The concept behind a game with various "classes" is that of having a number of different mechanics with which to solve problems and overcome difficulties in different ways. Difficulty is however normally set at a certain level, which is the one supposed to be entertaining, and, because of this, it should be the same for all of the classes.
In other words, one should be able to play a venom mage and a fighter with the same difficulty. Or worshipping Oka and Vehumet with the same difficulty, although the fact that many gods cater to specific audiences makes it more difficult to give them all-encompassing balance (I suppose that a minotaur fighter of Oka should be as capable as a deep elf conjurer of Vehumet). If one wants to have gods which do similar things, but of which one is easier (Trog vs Oka), it can work without ruining the game because a balanced alternative is present. However, if all gods are crazily different in strength, that's a bad signal, because I should be able to play a unique god like e.g. Chei or Dithmenos at standard difficulty, since their mechanics aren't available anywhere else.
Adding a button to set difficulty would be interesting (from 0 to 10, changing % of action success and monster health, with the current situation at 6), at least for offline play, because it would allow players to set the difficulty they find the most entertaining.

I think I have read somewhere that the race/class combos are meant to be difficulty settings.

arandomperson12 wrote:I think I have read somewhere that the race/class combos are meant to be difficulty settings.

I guess a minotaur summoner makes for an interesting experience. In theory you could also make it more difficult and become a minotaur "pact maker", which is a summoner that only summons demons. However, the peculiar way in which background works in Crawl (by comparison with e.g. D&D 3.5) means that the choice is completely left to the player. It's like starting with a troll assassin, you can ditch stealth at any time and go force claw your way until you find an altar you like. A mobile difficulty bar means that difficulty doesn't need to be enforced through consciously suboptimal choices.

Shtopit wrote:
tabstorm wrote:You imply that balance is desirable in and of itself...

It really is.

If you say it is, why is your narrative filled with "should"s?

Shtopit wrote:Difficulty is however normally set at a certain level, which is the one supposed to be entertaining, and, because of this, it should be the same for all of the classes.

Too bad it isnt, mainly because that would require you removed unviable backgrounds from most races.

Shtopit wrote:In other words, one should be able to play a venom mage and a fighter with the same difficulty.

You cant even play a HuFi with the same difficulty as a HuVM.

Shtopit wrote:Or worshipping Oka and Vehumet with the same difficulty, although the fact that many gods cater to specific audiences makes it more difficult to give them all-encompassing balance

So you aknowledge they are not balanced?

Shtopit wrote:(I suppose that a minotaur fighter of Oka should be as capable as a deep elf conjurer of Vehumet).

Have you played those two things? They are not balanced in any way and no matter how skilled you are you gonna have more trouble playing a DECj than a MiFi. Also, lets forget mummy is on the game or other complicated species like formicid or naga.

Shtopit wrote:If one wants to have gods which do similar things, but of which one is easier (Trog vs Oka), it can work without ruining the game because a balanced alternative is present.

What thats even supposed to mean? Doesnt one being easier than the other destroys your definition of balance? You have been talking about difficult this whole time.

Shtopit wrote:However, if all gods are crazily different in strength, that's a bad signal, because I should be able to play a unique god like e.g. Chei or Dithmenos at standard difficulty, since their mechanics aren't available anywhere else.

Yeah, and this where the game is sitting right now, so how is it balanced?

1. Narrative ≠ text
2. Lack of potable water doesn't mean that potable water isn't important. The game would be better if it were balanced, right now it isn't. Where did you read that it is? I wrote "It [=balance] really is [desirable]".

Shtopit wrote:1. Narrative ≠ text
2. Lack of potable water doesn't mean that potable water isn't important. The game would be better if it were balanced, right now it isn't. Where did you read that it is? I wrote "It [=balance] really is [desirable]".

Everything you mentioned points to the contrary and you dont even try to demonstrate how it would be better if it was otherwise. So it is desirable that this game be umbalanced, which is why it is.

goodcoolguy wrote:If you haven't gotten Jiyva from an early random altar, you can't really appreciate how bad slime knights would be. The slimes eat all your items and kill all your monsters. You get to lair with half the usual amount of consumables, no equipment, and experience level 7. It's incredibly bad. Much worse than a chaos knight start. This would break the concept of streaking random combos, for example.

This is a surprising post. Usually you know what the hell you're talking about. Early Jiyva is very strong.

How would you then explain this?

elliptic wrote:On most characters an early Jiyva altar is just a trap

It's true that Jiyva was not designed for early worship. It's not true that Jiyva is actually bad to worship early. To be fair, this is really only true because slimify is the best god ability in the game.

stickyfingers wrote:How would you then explain this?
elliptic wrote:On most characters an early Jiyva altar is just a trap

Because worshipping Chei or TSO early is never a trap.

If you are going for 15 runes on a melee character, shouldn't you just go with TSO from the start? Okawaru's wrath might kill you.

arandomperson12 wrote:If you are going for 15 runes on a melee character, shouldn't you just go with TSO from the start? Okawaru's wrath might kill you.

No. Actually, you shouldn't even go with TSO at the end.

Why not? He gives you holy wrath on a weapon of your choice, heal on kills, slotless rN+++, slotless sinv, accuracy boost, aoe attack, and powerful summons.

arandomperson12 wrote:If you are going for 15 runes on a melee character, shouldn't you just go with TSO from the start? Okawaru's wrath might kill you.

You shouldnt go TSO early simple because poison weapons are better, you should go Ely and then convert to TSO for crypt. As far as extended goes anything flies, even Chei.

Slime Knight would be a weak challenge background, if we're being honest. But then so is Chaos Knight. I think that if people want it; I can support another weak challenge background; especially since without it Jiyva very rarely gets played (not available until late, not a strong enough god to justify the switch most the time).

Shtopit wrote:
tabstorm wrote:You imply that balance is desirable in and of itself...

It really is. The concept behind a game with various "classes" is that of having a number of different mechanics with which to solve problems and overcome difficulties in different ways. Difficulty is however normally set at a certain level, which is the one supposed to be entertaining, and, because of this, it should be the same for all of the classes.
In other words, one should be able to play a venom mage and a fighter with the same difficulty. Or worshipping Oka and Vehumet with the same difficulty, although the fact that many gods cater to specific audiences makes it more difficult to give them all-encompassing balance (I suppose that a minotaur fighter of Oka should be as capable as a deep elf conjurer of Vehumet). If one wants to have gods which do similar things, but of which one is easier (Trog vs Oka), it can work without ruining the game because a balanced alternative is present. However, if all gods are crazily different in strength, that's a bad signal, because I should be able to play a unique god like e.g. Chei or Dithmenos at standard difficulty, since their mechanics aren't available anywhere else.
Adding a button to set difficulty would be interesting (from 0 to 10, changing % of action success and monster health, with the current situation at 6), at least for offline play, because it would allow players to set the difficulty they find the most entertaining.

Once you have reached some moderate skill level, the game is as easy or as hard as you want to make it. At this point you know what "correct" play ought to look like, but it's really unpleasant, so you decide where corners can be cut to make the game more enjoyable or reduce exploration to bring down loot/XP.

dynast wrote:
Shtopit wrote:1. Narrative ≠ text
2. Lack of potable water doesn't mean that potable water isn't important. The game would be better if it were balanced, right now it isn't. Where did you read that it is? I wrote "It [=balance] really is [desirable]".

Everything you mentioned points to the contrary and you dont even try to demonstrate how it would be better if it was otherwise. So it is desirable that this game be umbalanced, which is why it is.

Well, explain to me why an unbalanced game is better, since I have already exposed my reasons.

Shtopit wrote:Well, explain to me why an unbalanced game is better, since I have already exposed my reasons.

I didnt say its better, i think thats subjective. I said its desirable to this game to be umbalanced because thats the direction it has been moving towards. Also, whatever reason you have to believe this game would be better balanced is irrelevant if you dont know how to get there, or if you dont know what is umbalanced about the game.

If we're gonna have slime knights I want Jiyva to stop removing mutations from me. ;-;

Otherwise I can't find a reason to want to play this class since I'll just be stuck at 10 muts, half of which take away body slots which the other half simply circumvent (by adding resistances or AC through muts that would normally be in those slots through).

Even as Sp or Op I still feel cheated since Jiyva just loooooves to take away muts. He shouldn't work the same as a potion of mutation...

I'd suggest an exercise for you then: get 10+ mutations and quaff a few !muts. Count mutations added and removed.

Slime knights have arrived.

Spoiler: show

The Tavern

Slime Knights

Slime Knights

Re: Remove Berserker Background

Re: Remove Berserker Background

Re: Remove Berserker Background

Re: Remove Berserker Background

Re: Remove Berserker Background

Re: Slime Knights

Re: Remove Berserker Background

Re: Remove Berserker Background

Re: Slime Knights

Re: Slime Knights

Re: Slime Knights

Re: Slime Knights

Re: Slime Knights

Re: Slime Knights

Re: Slime Knights

Re: Slime Knights

Re: Slime Knights

Re: Slime Knights

Re: Slime Knights

Re: Slime Knights

Re: Slime Knights

Re: Slime Knights

Re: Slime Knights

Re: Slime Knights

Re: Slime Knights

Re: Slime Knights

Re: Slime Knights

Re: Slime Knights

Re: Slime Knights

Re: Slime Knights

Re: Slime Knights

Re: Slime Knights

Re: Slime Knights

Re: Slime Knights

Re: Slime Knights

Re: Slime Knights

Re: Slime Knights

Re: Slime Knights

Re: Slime Knights

Re: Slime Knights

Re: Slime Knights

Re: Slime Knights

Re: Slime Knights

Re: Slime Knights

Re: Slime Knights

Re: Slime Knights

Re: Slime Knights