Good weaknesses for a player race.

[PowerOfKaishin]

At some point I'll probably post a draft of a player race I've been working on called the android, a mix of human, machine, and magic. It's pretty straightforward:

- +1 to all or most aptitudes
- +10% HP
- 10/10/10 stats, random SID every three levels
- they aren't completely alive, and so are treated as gargoyles for torment and negative energy resistance

I need a weakness to go with it so it's not just a superpowered human (of course that's what it is, but gameplay wise I mean) and so people still have a reason to play DE, HE, Hu, and HO over it. Here are some I've thought of:

- Emotionally stunted: all three of the below
o No berserk (berserk doesn't come up enough in non-trog games)
o Subdued magic (could be a nasty setback)
o Bad Invo (only encourages gods that don't use invo) or the reduced piety gain mutation (this got removed but is probably still in the source somewhere)
- No might, agility, or brilliance (takes away a key advantage of pretty much any other race)
- Increase potion quaffing time (leaning towards this as a weakness, as potions are used in emergencies much more frequently than scrolls)
- Intrinsic blurry vision (as above, though less so because the only instant scroll is blinking)
- rF- and rC- (could be amusing at the start)
- reduced regen (just means more resting out of battle)
- lots of noise (nothing says noobtrap like having a race that doesn't take noise into account)
- extra movement delay (could possibly go away with time)

This race would be popular among newer players so take that into account. Potion quaffing taking extra time teaches newer players to plan ahead, as does blurry vision, albeit to a lesser extent. I'm leaning towards those. Unfortunately, I need a weakness that defines the character (like stasis with Fo and no armour with Op).

More suggestions and input would be welcome.

[and into]

Hate to start off with bikeshedding, but "android" just strikes me as being really out of step with Crawl's aesthetic. Are you married to that aspect of the flavor, or would rebranding it as some sort of golem-hybrid or something be ok?

One idea would be to make them magic immune, which would be a double-edged sword: You do not have to worry about confusion, mark, etc., but you also couldn't haste yourself. (Unfortunately this could run into the problem that Dith's "no bright light" conduct used to have, before it was changed to "no fire." What counts as a "magical" buff, here? Is phase shift ok? Oz's Armour? Cigotuvi's Embrace? Death Channel? Etc.)

EDIT: I don't think magic immunity would be enough, on its own, to differentiate this species. But a playable magic immune character is an idea that has been floated before and it would seem to fit, as many (all?) of the "constructs" in DCSS are magic-immune.

[CanOfWorms]

the pros of this species is mi with spellcasting bonuses (+int and +spellcasting apts) so it's not a very interesting race to add for newcomers since mi is already a popular race. the only reason someone would play this race (regardless of what weakness you give them) is because they want to play a spellcasting minotaur, otherwise you might as well play mi. so if you want to continue you should figure out what to add to make them distinct from mi

[duvessa]

just play a spellcasting minotaur

[PowerOfKaishin]

Hate to start off with bikeshedding, but "android" just strikes me as being really out of step with Crawl's aesthetic. Are you married to that aspect of the flavor, or would rebranding it as some sort of golem-hybrid or something be ok?

One idea would be to make them magic immune, which would be a double-edged sword: You do not have to worry about confusion, mark, etc., but you also couldn't haste yourself. (Unfortunately this could run into the problem that Dith's "no bright light" conduct used to have, before it was changed to "no fire." What counts as a "magical" buff, here? Is phase shift ok? Oz's Armour? Cigotuvi's Embrace? Death Channel? Etc.)

EDIT: I don't think magic immunity would be enough, on its own, to differentiate this species. But a playable magic immune character is an idea that has been floated before and it would seem to fit, as many (all?) of the "constructs" in DCSS are magic-immune.

Think of android like a spellforged servitor combined with a human. In a fictional world you would expect advancements to technology to favor using magic over straight electricity. The servitors in game already give this impression based on their tiles version.

You can't rebrand it golem because golems are dumb as bricks lol. But a golem-human hybrid would be something along the lines of an android. However, upon looking up the definition of android, this differs a little in that it's supposed to be a human with magical and machine enhancements, not a straight up robot.

I don't think magic immunity will do much. Stasis works because emergency teleportation options are integral to the game. The player is expected to use them so their loss has to be made up for in other ways. Restricting charms doesn't have this bonus and having infinite MR to make up for its loss is kinda boring. Although being immune to the bullshit that is paralysis is kinda cool, at the end of the day it's not helping the game any.

the pros of this species is mi with spellcasting bonuses (+int and +spellcasting apts) so it's not a very interesting race to add for newcomers since mi is already a popular race. the only reason someone would play this race (regardless of what weakness you give them) is because they want to play a spellcasting minotaur, otherwise you might as well play mi. so if you want to continue you should figure out what to add to make them distinct from mi

I think Duvy's overly sarcastic response covers this quite nicely. Spellcasting IS what makes them different. I need a weakness to give people a reason to play Mi over this race (unless counter headbutt is reason enough).

[CanOfWorms]

you can just play mi and ignore spellcasting, I interpret duvessa's response as "just play a spellcasting mi instead of this race"

[PowerOfKaishin]

Regardless, if you think this is Mi + spellcasting then tell me how I can make it not that.

[duvessa]

you're the one who wants to add a new race, so...maybe come up with a new race instead of asking other people to do it for you????? ("human, but with slightly better aptitudes, hp, and stats" is not a good new race)

also, making claims like "This race would be popular among newer players" about a feature that doesn't exist yet is absurd

[PowerOfKaishin]

Wow rude much. Did you read the op? I offered some suggestions there and wanted feedback on them. I wanted criticisms that I could actually use so it'd be nice if you elaborated on your comments instead of just going lol spellcasting minotaur.

I suppose I shouldn't have expected a smart ass to actually look for or provide anything useful though.

[dynast]

Someone has to explain to me how slow movement, blurry vision, rc-, rf-, no buff potions and slow regen equals minotaur. With that said, i dont think those are good ideas for a species, the element vulnerability could lead to interesting situations but its most likely to just lead you to your doom frequently. There is not much feedback i can give you other than avoid having too many, if any "no this, no that" conduits, or if you do, have something interesting to compensate for that, take for example naga or formicid. Nagas are slow but resilient, your species idea is slow and vulnerable, formicids cant haste, tele, blink, or do any of the most interesting stuff, but they can dig, shaft and use shields all the time, which doesnt make then interesting anyways(at least for me).

[genericpseudonym]

Hate to start off with bikeshedding, but "android" just strikes me as being really out of step with Crawl's aesthetic. Are you married to that aspect of the flavor, or would rebranding it as some sort of golem-hybrid or something be ok?

One idea would be to make them magic immune, which would be a double-edged sword: You do not have to worry about confusion, mark, etc., but you also couldn't haste yourself. (Unfortunately this could run into the problem that Dith's "no bright light" conduct used to have, before it was changed to "no fire." What counts as a "magical" buff, here? Is phase shift ok? Oz's Armour? Cigotuvi's Embrace? Death Channel? Etc.)

EDIT: I don't think magic immunity would be enough, on its own, to differentiate this species. But a playable magic immune character is an idea that has been floated before and it would seem to fit, as many (all?) of the "constructs" in DCSS are magic-immune.

The biggest advantages of magic immunity would be pretty close to the advantages of Fo stasis: no being paralysed/slowed in exchange for no haste. But magic immunity would have more upsides and less harsh downsides (assuming it doesn't block teleportation).

Someone has to explain to me how slow movement, blurry vision, rc-, rf-, no buff potions and slow regen equals minotaur. With that said, i dont think those are good ideas for a species, the element vulnerability could lead to interesting situations but its most likely to just lead you to your doom frequently. There is not much feedback i can give you other than avoid having too many, if any "no this, no that" conduits, or if you do, have something interesting to compensate for that, take for example naga or formicid. Nagas are slow but resilient, your species idea is slow and vulnerable, formicids cant haste, tele, blink, or do any of the most interesting stuff, but they can dig, shaft and use shields all the time, which doesnt make then interesting anyways(at least for me).

That list of downsides is a list of options. He doesn't want all at once, except for the first three which are in a set together.

[chequers]

Here's a list of races added since 0.8: VS, Fo, Gr, Op, Fe

First I'd note this is an extremely small list. There have been many species proposals but only about 0.5 new species per release. You have a high bar to clear for a new species. Secondly, all these new species have very unique characteristics. Gr is the most human-like of all these races but even they are reasonably unusual.

Looking at your proposal, Android is a hybrid of three existing species: Hu (good apts), Mi (good hp), Gr (semi-living). Note you picked three advantages -- this new species is probably better than any of its ancestors. Also, Android has no unusual mechanics. This is what people mean when they say the species is "human like".

I suggest you start creating a species by finding an interesting playstyle/conduct niche that crawl doesn't explore very well, and go from there.

[Bart]

Considering that number of male and female uniques is now well balanced, I propose a chauvinist species.
1. Select your gender (M/F).
2. You have permanent amulet of harm and berserkitis against opposite gender.
3. There is a small chance to convert same gender enemies to your cause (they cannot leave level).
4. If gender of enemy is hard to determine, you might get confused for d3 turns.
Tell me what ya think!

[MainiacJoe]

Wow rude much. Did you read the op? I offered some suggestions there and wanted feedback on them. I wanted criticisms that I could actually use so it'd be nice if you elaborated on your comments instead of just going lol spellcasting minotaur.

I suppose I shouldn't have expected a smart ass to actually look for or provide anything useful though.

IMO duvessa is not a smart-ass. In this case "LOL spellcasting minotaur" not insult but an actual assessment: your new species is not occupying a new design space. Abrasive, yes, but nearly everything he says has something I can learn from (a recent example for me was when I had totally the wrong impression of how anti-magic brand worked). I've also found that he answers genuine requests for information directly and thoroughly without any sarcasm at all (a recent example for me was when I asked whether Petrify + LRD is a combo or nombo). The one criticism you had that is near the mark is that he is frequently too terse; I've seen quite a bit improvement in that recently and I conclude he's being cognizant to try to explain himself more fully when he feels the topic warrants it. Once I learned to look past the tone, duvessa's posts have been a beneficial resource for me.

[dowan]

Wow rude much. Did you read the op? I offered some suggestions there and wanted feedback on them. I wanted criticisms that I could actually use so it'd be nice if you elaborated on your comments instead of just going lol spellcasting minotaur.

I suppose I shouldn't have expected a smart ass to actually look for or provide anything useful though.

IMO duvessa is not a smart-ass. In this case "LOL spellcasting minotaur" not insult but an actual assessment: your new species is not occupying a new design space. Abrasive, yes, but nearly everything he says has something I can learn from (a recent example for me was when I had totally the wrong impression of how anti-magic brand worked)....

Oh good, it's been a few months since the last "Duvessa is never wrong even when he's wrong, never rude, especially when he's rude, and besides, he's getting better" excuse posts. It's funny, I've been seeing posts like this since I joined a couple years ago...

Duvessa is a knowledgable rude smart-ass. It's certainly better than just being a rude ass, and much better than a rude dumb-ass...

[MainiacJoe]

Yeah, I'm sure he's not never wrong (NB I didn't say that) but he's surely wrong less often than I am!

[dowan]

I wasn't trying to criticize you, it just made me laugh because I've seen essentially that same post a number of times before. I may have even made a very similar post myself at some point...