Rename Damnation to Brimstone

[dowan]

Good points about destruction already being a thing in several instances...

How about abandoning any pretext of it being related to a tangible thing? Just call it a blast of purple. The ice fiend lobs a blast of purple! You are engulfed in purple!

It matches how it looks in tiles, nobody would expect fire resistance to work, and I really doubt anyone has any existing expectations about the properties of a purple blast.

[dpeg]

The discussion about language and grammar is very interesting (really!), but it does neglect one point:

The original move ("Hellfire" --> "Damnation") was a clear gain, from the player point of view. (I'm thinking of a new player, who now cannot be misled to think of rF; I realise that a veteran player has to make a mental adaption. I am confident our players can do that.)

After that, you can ask, and this is what this thread is about: is the new word the best word? The answer is probably no. However, there won't even be any concensus about a best word, and the next potential gain (improving "Damnation") is, in my opinion, smaller than the first one. You can also call this is a kind of inertia: the actual issue is solved, and what's left is a flavour question that's not urgent.

As a non-native speaker, I cannot say how odd "damnation" reads in the messages that Crawl throws out. For me, it seems good enough.

[ydeve]

The bad part is reading about damnation exploding.

[goodcoolguy]

How about "radiation"? Easy to understand that it's not fire (or any other kind of element that can be resisted) and that AC won't help.

I don't know if irradiate checks monster AC, but it's not a monster spell so I don't think anyone will have fixed expectations about what a blast of radiation does other than damage.

[Wahaha]

I expect radiation to radiate, not to be hurled/thrown/shot/blasted (blast of radiation is fine if it originates from the caster's tile and expands in a cone or circle but that's not what hellfire does).

The word damnation is very weird when used as a tangible thing.

My favorite word so far is hellblast (from this thread). Would need different wording when casting it.

[Siegurt]

The discussion about language and grammar is very interesting (really!), but it does neglect one point:

The original move ("Hellfire" --> "Damnation") was a clear gain, from the player point of view. (I'm thinking of a new player, who now cannot be misled to think of rF; I realise that a veteran player has to make a mental adaption. I am confident our players can do that.)

After that, you can ask, and this is what this thread is about: is the new word the best word? The answer is probably no. However, there won't even be any concensus about a best word, and the next potential gain (improving "Damnation") is, in my opinion, smaller than the first one. You can also call this is a kind of inertia: the actual issue is solved, and what's left is a flavour question that's not urgent.

As a non-native speaker, I cannot say how odd "damnation" reads in the messages that Crawl throws out. For me, it seems good enough.

The main problem is that as was pointed out, "damnation" is the wrong kind of word.

"Damnation" is a state of being like "bliss" or "nirvana" or "free"

Imagine a healing ability and saying someone "threw bliss at you" it doesn't make any sense.

For me personally, it is just a matter of good grammar.

A "damnation blast" (or burst) wouldn't be ideal, but it would at least communicate with sensible words.

Literally "damnation" is to be in the state of being damned, it means "someone or something is or has been damming you" you can't shoot someone with a state of being, you can *impose* a state of being on someone (by damning them) and the thing you shoot at them could have or be associated with a state of being (a damnation blast or burst) but you just can't shoot someone with a state of being.

[pubby]

rename to hellbomb

http://hellbomb.com/ for more information

[yesno]

just chiming in with confirmation, 'damnation' sounds pretty bad as a description of a physical phenomenon. 'damnation' describes the process of being or becoming damned. if not for its appearance in tiles, 'damnation' would not conjure any sensible image at all. 'hellfire' is unfortunately really the best possible word in english in terms of effectiveness and overall coolness. some people (including some native speakers) might like brimstone, but only because they don't know that brimstone is sulfur, and others without knowing what it is will still associate it with something on fire. i prefer 'hellfire' in spite of player confusion, but with 'hellfire' off the table i like:

  Code:

"The elf calls down the powers of hell upon you!"

tho this leaves the problem of:

  Code:

"The foo engulfs your elf zombie!"

What would we call the foo in this case? 'unholy power'? don't want it to sound like negative energy typed damage either.

[Siegurt]

just chiming in with confirmation, 'damnation' sounds pretty bad as a description of a physical phenomenon. 'damnation' describes the process of being or becoming damned. if not for its appearance in tiles, 'damnation' would not conjure any sensible image at all. 'hellfire' is unfortunately really the best possible word in english in terms of effectiveness and overall coolness. some people (including some native speakers) might like brimstone, but only because they don't know that brimstone is sulfur, and others without knowing what it is will still associate it with something on fire. i prefer 'hellfire' in spite of player confusion, but with 'hellfire' off the table i like:

  Code:

"The elf calls down the powers of hell upon you!"

tho this leaves the problem of:

  Code:

"The foo engulfs your elf zombie!"

What would we call the foo in this case? 'unholy power'? don't want it to sound like negative energy typed damage either.

Demonic power? Hellish power?

[Shtopit]

The Blood of the Damned!

[dpeg]

Well, "to damn" is a verb. Could always use this instead of trying to make the noun sound right.

[yesno]

it's just really not the right word, in any form, though... like, "the elf damns you!" is not a good way to express what we mean: "the elf causes an explosion of fiery energy to engulf you." "the elf damns you" means something like, uhh, "the elf sort of metaphysically afflicts you with misfortune and spiritual malaise, or consigns you to some particular unfortunate fate."

some fantasy games have a "doom" affliction, like iirc final fantasy tactics had a doom spell that started a countdown timer, which would instantly kill the afflicted when it reached 0. and other fantasy games have a 'curse' status effect that lowers ability scores or resistances. those are the kinds of things that have a reasonably intuitive association with "damnation" in a fantasy game.

[bananaken]

You could just explicitly state damage types (through x->v or otherwise) and call it a day. There's already notifications for whether you resist something (or are vulnerable to something), renaming hellfire/damnation/hypergodblastbeam feels too much like bikeshedding.

If I were a new player that made it far enough to deal with hellfire for the first time, I would be intimidated by the name "hellfire" and assume it's something a level above normal fire, then observe that my rF+ didn't do anything upon being hit and move on.

Also TBH, without being spoiled damnation would initially remind me of torment (similar motif going on) which is resistible by rN.

My suggestion would be to add a simple indicator for damage type when you x->v (could be color coded) and pick the cooler, more threatening name for irresistible damage types. My vote is with hellfire since damnation sounds like it's "trying too hard" to fit the mold

[ebering]

..but you just can't shoot someone with a state of being.

You've never been to Texas. They'll shoot anyone with anything.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

I'd like to take a moment to look at why "damnation" was chosen over a simpler alternative like the obvious "brimstone". I have a good feeling that it was to hint at something terrible and unspeakable, bizarre and foreign, or at least of a vague nature, since you can do nothing to reduce its damage. Unfortunately, "damnation" comes off forced and ugly, like it went through Google Translate; it is just not good enough, and was chosen too hastily.

A commit recently changed “the damnation unfurls" to "the sphere of damnation explodes", so some concreteness is apparently important. I believe it is necessary. It's a sphere now, right? Let's try something: hellstar; I think it works better: hellstars can be thrown or called down, and you can even keep the unfurling, which IMO makes them sound more terrible, like a lumbering nightmare: The hellion gestures. The hellstar unfurls! The hellstar engulfs you!

Even simply renaming "damnation" to "erasure" (as someone suggested) would be an improvement, as that at least suggests what it does (BUT has no connotation of evil.)

[roctavian]

Gotta get in on this bikeshedding while it's still in GDD: A former DM of mine used the term "ruin damage" for "can't be resisted." I like "damnation" though.

How about ZOT DAMAGE, though.

[yesno]

Even simply renaming "damnation" to "erasure" (as someone suggested) would be an improvement

what on earth

[Arrhythmia]

How about ZOT DAMAGE, though.

fuck yeah

[Sandman25]

I think the most important thing for damnation name is to make it clear that AC/EV/rX don't help. This is why flaming/freezing/poisonous/corrosive bolts are named so good, they make it obvious that rF+/rC+/rPois/rCorr will help. Maybe "irresistible damage"?

You shoot an irresistible damage bolt.
The irresistible damage bolt hits the deep elf mage!!
The irresistible damage bolt blasts the deep elf mage.
The deep elf mage is severely wounded.
The irresistible damage bolt explodes!
The irresistible damage engulfs the deep elf mage.

[yesno]

  Code:

"The elf summons the power of Zot!
The power of Zot strikes you!!
OUCH! That really hurt!
The power of Zot eviscerates your elf zombie!!!!
Your elf zombie is destroyed!
The power of Zot demolishes your orc zombie!!!
Your orc zombie is destroyed!
The power of Zot devastates your vampire knight!!!
Your vampire knight is destroyed!"

i like it. use a random damage word for each instance

[Sandman25]

We have Zot traps with random effect and if a random damage word is used for each instance, some players can think that the effect from "damnation" is random too.

[Shtopit]

I like ruin.

I like "The hellion waves its arms. ZOT!" Better.

[yesno]

We have Zot traps with random effect and if a random damage word is used for each instance, some players can think that the effect from "damnation" is random too.

i didnt mean include stuff like 'freeze'/'burn'/'shock', whatever, but like, 'demolish'/'shred'/'eviscerate'/'pulverize'. i don't think this would be confusing. also there has to be some consideration for aesthetics here, we can't seriously have "bolt of irresistible energy". that's awful, sorry

[HardboiledGargoyle]

Maybe "irresistible damage"?

around here at least, "irresistible damage" is often synonymous with "physical" which affects everything, even more than what damnation affects (since some monsters resist damnation), so it's not all that clear.

[Dracunos]

Wha? 'Irresistable damage' suggests physical? I don't think it does.. You wouldn't say part of glaciates damage is 'irresistible'.. Part of the damage is 'physical', meaning it can be 'resisted' with AC.

I don't recall anyone using irresistible damage as meaning physical damage, that would be really confusing to me.

[duvessa]

Wha? 'Irresistable damage' suggests physical? I don't think it does.. You wouldn't say part of glaciates damage is 'irresistible'.. Part of the damage is 'physical', meaning it can be 'resisted' with AC.

The 'non-physical' part of glaciate (and nearly everything else) can also be 'resisted' with AC...

[Dracunos]

Wha? 'Irresistable damage' suggests physical? I don't think it does.. You wouldn't say part of glaciates damage is 'irresistible'.. Part of the damage is 'physical', meaning it can be 'resisted' with AC.

The 'non-physical' part of glaciate (and nearly everything else) can also be 'resisted' with AC...

My point is that when someone goes through all the trouble to use the term 'irresistible' damage, that implies, at least to me, that there is absolutely nothing whatsoever you can to do mitigate that damage if the damage actually hits you. (Meaning that irresistible damage could still be blocked or evaded..)

So, yeah, trying to use terms that fit people's expectations probably isn't going to work because it seems like everyone has different expectations? I figured my thought process on it was pretty universal, but maybe not.

E: Okay, now I'm not sure if irresistible damage implies it cannot be blocked or evaded to me, either.. Anyway, this isn't really all that relevant, sorry.

[Sandman25]

Unavoidable damage will make it clear that it cannot be evaded/blocked. But it is not good from flavor point of view for most players.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

This can give you some idea as to how people tend to use "irresistible": wiki, tavern, ctrl-f on https://crawl.develz.org/learndb/

[Shard1697]

Yeah, it's quite common for people to say "irresistible" when referring to attacks non-elemental parts of attacks that are partially elemental damage. Like Firestorm or iceblast wand's bit of non elemental damage.

[bananaken]

I think communicating damage types as clearly as possible is great, though aspiring to do this through the names themselves just sounds really difficult to do without a proper naming scheme. As an example Persona/Shin Megami Tensei RPGs merge irresistible damage into one damage type: almighty. They take things a step further and designed spells so the naming schemes are self-explanatory in terms of how powerful they are and what they do. For almighty type damage there's Megido<Megidola<Megidolaon, for fire there's Agi<Agilao<Agidyne, for *multi-hit* fire there's Maragi<Maragion<Maragidyne, etc.

The thing about these names is that the actual prefixes and suffixes are taken from multiple languages and references, but even if you have no idea what they mean, they form a easy to follow set of rules that tell you exactly what kind of spell it is, all while sounding cool (Oh shit I learned ZIODYNE!!).

That said, I really think making UI changes that clearly communicate damage types for moves and spells should be low hanging fruit, spell names notwithstanding.

[Shard1697]

On that note, for the purposes of clarity(and since Beogh is already an evil god), even if we don't change the name it would make sense if the description for orc priests' smiting was similar.

EX: "The orc priest calls down damnation (or whatever) upon you!"

"down upon you" implies from above, instead of 'horizontally', so it's a bit easier to intuit that it can be done even if other monsters are standing between you and it, and once a player who is already familiar with damnation (or whatever) from earlier in the game sees messages with that word in the attacks of postgame enemies, they can make the logical jump of "if there's no way to reduce the damage of an orc priests' damnation-flavored attack, there's probably no way to reduce this stronger damnation-flavored attack from a stronger enemy".
Additionally the flavoring, for now anyways, is more "priestly".

[PleasingFungus]

merging the themes of smiting and damnation seems like the best idea in this thread, imho

[HardboiledGargoyle]

double smiting would have the exact same average damage as Call Down Damnation

[bananaken]

My only gripe is that phrases such as "hurl down damnation" sound like some kind of Shakespearean era insult more than a actual attack

[CPTANT]

Damnation is a lame name, it barely fits the sentences. "the Hellion hurls damnation at you!"

My first thought was why it wasn't just changed to "hell blast" or something.

or something else entirely, soulrip or something. It sounds hellish, it sounds smite targeted and it sounds like something that wouldn't be blocked by armour.

"The Hellion rips your soul apart"! would sound kinda cool.




Anything but damnation

[dpeg]

Anything but damnation

What about "Hellfire"?

[CPTANT]

Anything but damnation

What about "Hellfire"?

Give this man a medal.


But seriously, why wasn't it just added to the spells description that its not the same as regular fire?

Also call me a genius, but I found it pretty damn obvious that the amount of damage I got from hellfire while having rf+++ was somewhat of an hint that it wasn't effected by rf.

[infinitevox]

Anything but damnation

What about "Hellfire"?

I liked Hellfire, and it made sense to me that you can't resist hellfire...because its literally fire from hell; aka fire that cannot be quenched.

Other ideas:
Zotblast
Wave of Ruination
Orb of Malice
Orb of Spite
Devilfoo

[dowan]

I was spoiled about hellfire before I played my first game, so I can't really comment on whether or not it would have confused me. But I know I saw the occasional tavern goer who thought rF would resist it.

But, after some thought, I've figured out the perfect answer. It's so good I'll bet everyone will kick themselves once they see it.

Spoiler: show

Pizza Tornado
The Pizza Tornado Unfurls around you. You are engulfed in a Pizza Tornado! Delicious, but deadly!

You're welcome everyone.

[ion_frigate]

The original move ("Hellfire" --> "Damnation") was a clear gain, from the player point of view. (I'm thinking of a new player, who now cannot be misled to think of rF

I disagree that it's a clear gain. It's true, they can't be misled about rF having any effect. But damnation sounds like a status effect - think of ADOM's cursing and dooming, NetHack's luck and god anger, or even Crawl's own draining: effects that have similar themes, and have not-immediately-obvious repercussions. It's true that damnation lacks the status light that actual status effects have, but I still think it's a potential source of confusion.

[genericpseudonym]

  Code:

"The elf summons the power of Zot!
The power of Zot strikes you!!
OUCH! That really hurt!
The power of Zot eviscerates your elf zombie!!!!
Your elf zombie is destroyed!
The power of Zot demolishes your orc zombie!!!
Your orc zombie is destroyed!
The power of Zot devastates your vampire knight!!!
Your vampire knight is destroyed!"

i like it. use a random damage word for each instance

I like it but instead of random damage verbs make them all "zot"

The power of Zot zots your orc zombie!!!

Or even better, "Your orc zombie is zotted!!!"

I don't know how you'd distinguish between the smite-target and los Zotting though. "The hellion calls down Zot. You are zotted!!!" is good, but "The brimstone fiend hurls Zot at you. You are zotted!!!" is awkward.

[Sar]

I smell another fake language in the making...

[Hands]

My only gripe is that phrases such as "hurl down damnation" sound like some kind of Shakespearean era insult more than a actual attack

The hellion calls damnation on you!
Ouch. That really hurt your feelings.
You die of shame...

[dynast]

How did i let this happen, how did i end up on CYC again...

[Gongclonker]

I propose calling it Dicso Fever, and imparting a strong correlation between disco balls and disco fever. And then potions of alcohol, so we can re-enact Ten Cent Beer night.

[Shtopit]

  Code:

The Elf High Priest utters an invocation! ZOT!
[This annihilating blast cannot be evaded!]
The annihilating blast engulfs you!
OUCH! That really hurt!
==== Low hitpoints warning ====
Your schlong golem is ripped apart by the annihilating blast!!!
Your schlong golem is destroyed!
The slime creature is swallowed by the annihilating blast!!
The slime creature is severely wounded.
The curse toe is torn asunder by the annihilating blast!!!
The curse toe is destroyed!
Joseph's flesh is rent from his bones by the annihilating blast!!! The horror!!!
Joseph dies!
You see here Joseph's skeleton.


Just some flavour ideas.