The Tavern

No idea how power-wise this change is but just reading the commit Sif Muna finally seems a god legitly fun to play with! (where not-fun = he's so annoying I'd prefer having someone beating me senselessly right now)

What a convoluted way to give players infinite mp.

Letting gammafunk reform Sif is like letting tasonir reform Cheibriados.

That said, these changes seem directly aimed at the parts of Sif I disliked most, so it sounds like an improvement. I hope the next thing to be tackled will be the inventory management annoyance of books, but that extends way beyond Sif. I'm excited to try the new Sif out.

dynast wrote:What a convoluted way to give players infinite mp.

What a snarky comment to dismiss someone else's effort.

Did you actually play new Sif? Do you have a simpler idea how to reach the multiple aims around Sif & MP?

I do, but its asenine from the devs viewpoint and as much as i appreciate the sif buff i cant help but give a huge sigh whenever i play a spellcaster and i have to pick a magic god for the sake of mp more than their actual spell benefits(like spell gifts, stronger spells, increased range, no miscast effects).

More mp is actual spell benefit. I suspect more casters die from having 0 MP than from lacking a particular spell, a bit weaker spell power or miscasts.

Sandman25 wrote:More mp is actual spell benefit. I suspect more casters die from having 0 MP than from lacking a particular spell, a bit weaker spell power or miscasts.

Nobody said it is not and of course spellcasters die when their mp reach zero, but also and mainly because their hp reach zero.

The focus of "magic gods" on mp recovery should make one wonder whether there is an underlying problem with the cost of spells, not so much whether there are better ways for gods to make the problem go away.

The power level of the new version of Sif Muna is much less important than the fact that you don't have to press aa thirty times per fight any more.

It seems Sif Muna's miscast protection was nerfed a bit. Max piety, yet spell failure rate numbers were still showing up as red in the spell list, and I've suffered miscast effects on a few occasions. Is this intended?

EDIT: Not sure what was causing this. I reloaded the game and the problem went away. Maybe an intermittent bug that should be watched for?

Did they design Sif into a mana vampire yet? I haven't read the changes, yet.

sounds cool, think i'll try a VpSu^Sif soon.

dynast wrote:What a convoluted way to give players infinite mp.

The regen power costs piety, it doesn't seem infinite to me.

The "Cast spells while at 0mp" thing seems pretty great, but it's not much like infinite MP. A 0-mp fireball will give you -cast for 3-13 turns.
It might be nice for hybrid-types who can use blasty spells until they run out of mana and then switch to melee with a few divine-energied fireballs thrown into the mix whenever -cast wears off.

TonberryJam wrote:Did they design Sif into a mana vampire yet? I haven't read the changes, yet.

No.
You can cast spells without enough MP in exchange for getting -cast status for a duration based on the MP missing.
And you get a magic regeneration power that costs piety and has invo-scaling duration.
Old channel is gone.
And last of all you get a small amount of piety from kills now.

Her other abilities are still the same.

nago wrote:

boy i'm glad i never saw batman v. superman

Turns out Sif's new Divine Energy ability is a Ghost Moth nerf.
(Also a Controlled Blink buff)

Can anybody explain why I would want to not toggle Divine Energy on and keep it there permanently? The only possibility that I can think of is so players don't get surprised by -Cast when they cast a spell they can't normally cast, but the penalty for doing that wrong is basically the same as being out of mp, which was a problem they already had if the ability activated in the first place. There doesn't seem to be any reason this should be toggleable, or at the very least it should not default to off.

genericpseudonym wrote:
dynast wrote:What a convoluted way to give players infinite mp.

The regen power costs piety, it doesn't seem infinite to me.

Im a idiot, i confused -cast with -wiz. I havent played new sif but i already dont like it.

KoboldLord wrote:Can anybody explain why I would want to not toggle Divine Energy on and keep it there permanently? The only possibility that I can think of is so players don't get surprised by -Cast when they cast a spell they can't normally cast, but the penalty for doing that wrong is basically the same as being out of mp, which was a problem they already had if the ability activated in the first place. There doesn't seem to be any reason this should be toggleable, or at the very least it should not default to off.

There's no explanation. Divine Energy is a horrendously obtuse way of giving Sif characters a small increase in maximum MP, nothing else. Because just giving the max MP increase directly was too bland, I guess.

For 95% of the game, it functions as increased max-MP, but it's stronger the way it is implemented currently because it allows you to continue casting spells even after being completely drained by anti-magic / eye of draining / ghost moth / etc.

Also, early on when spells don't cost much but your magic pool is limited and regen is slow, it also acts as increased regen with its current implementation, because the time it takes for -cast to wear off is typically much faster than it would take for you to regenerate the necessary amount of magic to cast another spell. This can help a lot early game when kiting monsters.

As a huge MuWz Sif fan, I have to say that this change certainly seems terrible at first glance.
A 1-9 MP mana bonus that, if used, prevents you from doing the thing that the god is supposed to do...help cast spells.
Losing mana channeling until 3 * of piety is a pretty rough hit.
The mana channeling now costs less food, I assume...a hit against mummies. It provides no more mana than the current channeling, but does seem to allow you to perform other actions in the mean-time, but costs piety that I need to get spell-books.
It seems to be generally an overall decrease in flexibility and power.
Sounds like these changes are being made by someone who doesn't actually like being a caster, imo.

Laraso wrote:Also, early on when spells don't cost much but your magic pool is limited and regen is slow, it also acts as increased regen with its current implementation, because the time it takes for -cast to wear off is typically much faster than it would take for you to regenerate the necessary amount of magic to cast another spell. This can help a lot early game when kiting monsters.

But that time taken to cast another spell (especially at lower levels) is 1 or 2 mana channels instead of preventing yourself from casting anything for an unknown length of time.

Avigdore: How about playing this before commenting?

You have no idea how funny your very last sentence is.

Avigdore wrote:Sounds like these changes are being made by someone who doesn't actually like being a caster, imo.

lmao

If your game plan is hiding behind hordes of summons and spending most of your time pressing a-a, then yes, this is a nerf. Most casters aren't summoners. Spending one turn to get ambrosia-speed mp regen is waay better than getting 2-3mp a turn while being wacked by ogres.

Arrhythmia wrote:
Avigdore wrote:Sounds like these changes are being made by someone who doesn't actually like being a caster, imo.

lmao

Its funny because its true.

Most people, whether they prefer being a caster or not, don't like hitting a-a over and over again.

However, I agree that putting channeling on *** feels pretty rough and Divine Energy is weirdly complicated for what it is.

Keep in mind I run mostly mummies. I've won all the races, but still prefer Mu to the rest.
1st run...Sif didn't show up until D9, and I had 3 epic weapons by then...so from that:
Removing food from the channeling is another slight to mummies (I'm biased).
It took a Long time to get the channeling ability available, this meant more running from stuff.
2nd run: Sif in the Temple
Old channeling with 0 invocation was useful. Not really any more.
Took too long the get channeling on-line. Died after exhausting mana.
3rd run: Sif D4
Channeling costing piety leaves me 'resting' between fights much more often. Not willing to risk the spellbooks that I need & don't have yet. I guess I'm more likely to spam channel energy once I have the spell-books that I need....and as little as possible until then. Wondering what the difference in piety I'm losing resting between kills and channeling for fights...

Summation:
Sif Muna gave 3 things:
Spell failure protection. This one doesn't seem changed.
All the spells you could want. This one is now limited because you're using piety for the only other thing Sif's good for...
Unlimited mana. You lost the food cost for this, which I'm sure most people prefer, but made it 1) a later gift & 2) cost piety to use. Playing to a bit higher level, yes the channeling is better than the old version.
Now add an 'emergency' casting that stops me from actually casting spells afterwards. I'm sure someone smarter than I can find a good use for it.

Once you get past the hard part of the game and get all the spell-books that you want from Sif, the new channeling mechanic is great. Until then, it's a tougher slog.

As an aside: Has the way Sif populates spellbooks been changed? With nothing but conjuration and air turned on (skills 4+x higher than any other spell school) and I'm getting books with neither Air nor Conjuration in them.

I was a little surprised that this Sif reform did not come with earlier book gifts. **** or even *** would be fine from a balance perspective. Having essentially all spells available late in the game is really not valuable at all. It's just silly fun for people who have to get a third level 9 online while their dodging is at 6. What is valuable is having sufficient books by the beginning of the midgame to focus on a particular, manageable set of schools without fear of overcommitting and running out of spells.

dynast wrote:
Arrhythmia wrote:
Avigdore wrote:Sounds like these changes are being made by someone who doesn't actually like being a caster, imo.

lmao

Its funny because its true.

Indeed, if you ever physically attack by yourself you're no longer a caster.
aazs 'till it dies.

stickyfingers wrote:Indeed, if you ever physically attack by yourself you're no longer a caster.
aazs 'till it dies.

Yeah, imagine not having to use weapons when you play as a caster. Im not gonna launch myself into a rant, im just gonna say this: Spells try way too hard to be special.

I prefer not having to refrain from using a weapon despite starting without it.

Then dont?

Zero skill weapons are still quite good.

Divine Energy toggle is ridiculously complex, and it's dumb that a caster god can give -Cast status under any circumstances other than wrath.

Replace with two passive abilities:
* plus (# of piety stars) to max mp
** immunity to mana drain (which only comes from antimagic weapons and eyes of draining iirc EDIT also ghosts moths)

Not sure if it was already implemented but new -Cast status looks a good candidate for Xom effect.

Rast wrote:Divine Energy toggle is ridiculously complex, and it's dumb that a caster god can give -Cast status under any circumstances other than wrath.

Replace with two passive abilities:
* plus (# of piety stars) to max mp
** immunity to mana drain (which only comes from antimagic weapons and eyes of draining iirc)

Ghost moths

Get rid of the piety cost for channeling, or make Sif smart enough to give actual spellbooks that work with the skills you have trained? Sucks using piety I need to get mana, so I can't get the spell-books I need. Instead of ever channeling, now I get to use an amulet of mana regen and rest a lot more. Changes still don't make the god more fun, but less (for me).

Avigdore wrote:Get rid of the piety cost for channeling, or make Sif smart enough to give actual spellbooks that work with the skills you have trained?

You do realize channeling is supposed to have a cost so you have to think about when to use it instead of just spamming it willy-nilly? And Sif gifts already are weighted towards skills you have trained, as far as I know. Channeling is supposed to be an option when you urgently need a lot more mana, while divine energy is there when you urgently need just a bit more mana. Doesn't mean that you utterly need to forget about mana efficiency or foreswear retreating and regenerating your mana ever again.

I like channeling, but i gotta agree with other posters that divine energy seems needlessly complex. +10 MP and partial/full immunity to MP drain would do the same thing without the need for active ability.

Channeling didn't really used to have a cost to it. It made the game more fun to not have to sit and rest between fights for a full health, mana drained caster. A change to the game to make resting a More common action seems counter-intuitive to having fun. Sifs gifts may need to be more weighted, especially if you get fewer books if you use her channeling. Sif's old style was the ability to forget about mana efficiency. The beauty that was Sif: casting spells beyond your ability, surviving the miscasts because you can painlessly channel back, and getting the books that you need to be a caster.

My last game training only conjurations and air got me a book of warp, a book of poison magic, a book of 2 spells...bolt of cold and apportation, and finally...by the time I'd cleared Lair and D15, I got the book of Air. That weighting sucks. Add in that now I rest between fights, or run away instead of channeling (so I can have the piety to get books), means a much less fun God. Sure, once you have everything you need already she makes playing less button mashy...but who's going to want to slog through the crap part to get there?

Avigdore wrote:Channeling didn't really used to have a cost to it. It made the game more fun to not have to sit and rest between fights for a full health, mana drained caster. A change to the game to make resting a More common action seems counter-intuitive to having fun.

I, for one, find nothing fun in pressing the "a" button a good fourteen times after battle instead of pressing 5 once, which I'm going to do anyway since I still need HP.

That's why I recommended taking piety off the channeling. Faster than pressing '5' in game turns. Maybe make the mana regen slower than it is now, just take away the disincentive to use the skill. Maybe put the food cost back in to make there 'some' cost, and give mummies some value back?

i played an OpVM^sif now.

well lets say i reached max piety once by the time i was doing V5 and had enough of the kiting (turncount 70k?? by the time - i used OOD, freezing cloud, bolt of cold and olgrebs as my main spells) and went statue form/unarmed and then into extended.

i had tried it before including a DsFe with spirit mutation where it simply didnt work out and i dropped below 3* piety frequently (in lair6 first time, using sticky flame and kiting). and another i think.. in both games i abandoned sif after having some books. i guess thats also the best use for the god now.. later on the power level is too low imo and even vehumet beats it lategame.

now i continued to use it and also played without weapon skill until after 2 runes or sth. took ages but worked and probably all in all better than vehumet

what i personally would like would maybe be a non-melee conduct but in turn improve channeling the way so you can use it to create "pure casters" without endless kiting. maybe also some kind of staff mastery/shooting with staves for low dmg or effects would be an idea for sif.

the +cast lvl 1 ability is especially good for transmutations and summons/cblink. conjurations are too unreliable in dmg/hitting mostly to use it in a really risky situation.. but i dont think its annoying to use - i got used to how it worked and had it on all game.

channeling yea dunno i didnt push invo so hard this game only 14 because i didnt need it more later on. early/midgame its strong but then again you cannot use it so much there.
basically comes down to hybridizing.. if you do.. you dont need channeling at all.. if you dont.. the piety gain is too slow.

so it stays at the bottom tier of interesting gods for me now but better than before at least

I don't think the devs have god balance as a goal. I'm sure they already know the changes were a massive nerf to an already bad god. They just don't care.

The Tavern

Sif Muna is the new magic Trog

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