POLL: How Good/Bad Is Pakellas?

[Tiktacy]

Poll says it all.

NOTE: Overhaul in this context implies completely reworking from the ground up, effectively remaking him as an "evocations" god but with completely new effects and abilities.

[duvessa]

Pakellas's entire ability set is summarized by "make evocations stronger and give wands effectively infinite charges". It'd need a complete overhaul to become something interesting. What makes this especially worse than Vehumet (whose entire ability set is "make conjurations stronger") is that characters find nearly the same evocables every game - only rods and heal/haste/tele wands are rare, and the optimal Pakellas character is much more focused on wands and misc items than rods. And that's without considering the balance problems inherent in the design; the only reason Vehumet can get away with massively buffing conjurations is that Vehumet is bad, whereas Pakellas is a top 5 god.

[nago]

Before the overcharge nerf he was good

[Wahaha]

I don't think "make evokables stronger" is a good idea for a god. A character using primarily evokables sounds cool for about 1 playthrough, but like, it's really not a good idea with how Crawl evokables work.
Also a thing that frustrated me about the addition of Pakellas is that Nemelex was very much the evocations god (until very recently) and did it way better. I don't know who added Pakellas but it feels like they did not know the game very well. Feels unpleasant to me.

[HANFGEIST]

Unlike Ru, Iiked the idea of Pakellas before I ever played with him as my god.
He IS powerful and I really don't look forward to playing another god soon. I was in a bind in a game some time ago where I was hasted and went through 20 healing wand charges before beating a group of 4 or 5 enemies. I had good AC/EV at the time and thought to myself if I played any other god I'd be dead by now, which is not a nice thought in and of itself.
I have done a 15 rune rune with Yred, so I should not be worried about not playing Pak, but I feel like I am at times.
Charging devices before exploring feels like actual prep work and boosts confidence, as opposed to being reactive and having to figure out if that potion is better quaffed now or later.
That being said, I could do without all the extra Magic Potions, that would spice it up a bit. I often have more than 40, sometimes more than 100, by the time I get to U5.

[4Hooves2Appendages]

I was in a bind in a game some time ago where I was hasted and went through 20 healing wand charges before beating a group of 4 or 5 enemies. I had good AC/EV at the time and thought to myself if I played any other god I'd be dead by now, which is not a nice thought in and of itself.

Unless that god happens to have a panic button, like Zin, Ru and half the pantheon.

I feel the following isn't a good argument as far as game design is concerned: 'God X should stay as it is because it saved me once from a situation in which some other gods might not have saved me.'

It is particularly not a good argument without detailed explanation of the situation. Without evidence, I suspect it was avoidable and/or solvable without using HW 20 times.

[Sandman25]

I don't think "make evokables stronger" is a good idea for a god. A character using primarily evokables sounds cool for about 1 playthrough, but like, it's really not a good idea with how Crawl evokables work.
Also a thing that frustrated me about the addition of Pakellas is that Nemelex was very much the evocations god (until very recently) and did it way better. I don't know who added Pakellas but it feels like they did not know the game very well. Feels unpleasant to me.

I don't think "make melee stronger" is a good idea for a god. A character using primarily melee sounds cool for about 1 playthrough, but like, it's really not a good idea with how melee works. (Trog)

I don't think "make conjurations stronger" is a good idea for a god. A character using primarily conjurations sounds cool for about 1 playthrough, but like, it's really not a good idea with how conjurations work. (Vehumet)

I don't think "make healing stronger" is a good idea for a god. A character using primarily healing sounds cool for about 1 playthrough, but like, it's really not a good idea with how healing works. (Makhleb, yes, I never use active abilities of Makhleb and believe it is optimal)

I don't think "make physical attacks stronger" is a good idea for a god. A character using primarily physically attacks sounds cool for about 1 playthrough, but like, it's really not a good idea with how physical attacks work. (Okawaru)

Pakellas is much more interesting than for example, Okawaru or Trog because you actually need to think what to do. You have much more options. If anything, gods who make you stronger in what you already do are more boring than those who allow something unique. Also you don't need to rely on Evocations, having unlimited healing or hasting is great with 0 Evo and wands don't get that much spell power from training Evo.

[dynast]

Sandman, i believe some game mechanics are better left untouched. I dont see the problem with "make this and that stronger", i see a problem with "make expendable resources unlimited". When you are using limited resources you are more likely to make strategical decisions than when you can just spam them.

[Sandman25]

Sandman, i believe some game mechanics are better left untouched. I dont see the problem with "make this and that stronger", i see a problem with "make expendable resources unlimited". When you are using limited resources you are more likely to make strategical decisions than when you can just spam them.

This is what happens with potions of berserk (Trog), potions of invisibility (Dith), potions of magic (Sif/Vehumet), potions of "agility/might/haste" (Oka), potions of heal wounds (Makh).

[Psieye]

Pakellas is much more interesting than for example, Okawaru or Trog because you actually need to think what to do. You have much more options. If anything, gods who make you stronger in what you already do are more boring than those who allow something unique. Also you don't need to rely on Evocations, having unlimited healing or hasting is great with 0 Evo and wands don't get that much spell power from training Evo.

I like his flavour, but this execution of that flavour makes you think less not more. "Do I use this rare wand to solve this?" stops being a decision as all your wands effectively have infinite charges. You have more to do (interface button pressing) but less gets brought to the table (the wands are accessible by everyone) - i.e. much ado about the same old options. I've laid out my thoughts in this thread.

[Sandman25]

I like his flavour, but this execution of that flavour makes you think less not more. "Do I use this rare wand to solve this?" stops being a decision as all your wands effectively have infinite charges. You have more to do (interface button pressing) but less gets brought to the table (the wands are accessible by everyone) - i.e. much ado about the same old options. I've laid out my thoughts in this thread.

I don't see how it is different from Trog or Okawaru. Berserk/Brothers-in-Arms and Heroism/Finesse allow you to solve those problems too and losing wand charges is not different from losing piety provided you can recharge wands with Pak's piety. And since you have more types of wands, it takes more skill to decide what to do, sometimes you use Hexes, sometimes Conjurations, sometimes summons/clouds, sometimes just haste and heal. Compare to Trog/Oka who use the same 2 answers for any threats.

[dynast]

This is what happens with potions of berserk (Trog), potions of invisibility (Dith), potions of magic (Sif/Vehumet), potions of "agility/might/haste" (Oka), potions of heal wounds (Makh).

rage is not that good and you also have evocable rage, also, rage is strategic regardless if you can spam it or not and by strategic i mean scummy.
invis with dith idk, i havent bothered using shadow form ever, i personally dont like invis as a game mechanic,
magic sure, thats why i would rather see magic points gone from this game, it would wider the range of gods a caster would have and reduce the ammount of time he spends kiting shit.
agi/might/haste, come on now, i concede only haste, for me oka is more of a "you dont have to train skills above 22" god.
hw with makh sure, im surprised you didnt say ely, mahk is just a god that rewards supoptimal play and its no wonder players love him.

[MainiacJoe]

I like the Evocations enhancer a lot and want it to stay. Gut the rest of it, especially the infinite charges.

[Sandman25]

rage is not that good and you also have evocable rage, also, rage is strategic regardless if you can spam it or not and by strategic i mean scummy.
invis with dith idk, i havent bothered using shadow form ever, i personally dont like invis as a game mechanic,
magic sure, thats why i would rather see magic points gone from this game, it would wider the range of gods a caster would have and reduce the ammount of time he spends kiting shit.
agi/might/haste, come on now, i concede only haste, for me oka is more of a "you dont have to train skills above 22" god.
hw with makh sure, im surprised you didnt say ely, mahk is just a god that rewards supoptimal play and its no wonder players love him.

It becomes off-topic at this point so I will not write much. Unlike berserking, wands can waste your turn (Hex wands can be resisted, Conjurations miss, Clouds create some bad cloud, Summons summon something bad etc.), for me Oka is "crazy damage and some gifts" god, the game is won long before you reach 22 in weapon/armour/dodging, Ely requires significant investment in Invocations (that's why it is not OP god).

My point is that Pak can provide consumables (and improve character in other ways) for piety because that's the point of all gods, you get something very good for piety and worship.

[MainiacJoe]

My point is that Pak can provide consumables (and improve character in other ways) for piety because that's the point of all gods, you get something very good for piety and worship.

I've been brought around to the point of view that the amount of consumables that Pak provides is too much, effectively infinite.

I've never felt like Nemelex is an Evocations god, as much as a random effects god with an item-based interface. Sure, he encourages you to train Evocs, but that's it. I think there's room for Pakellas, and I enjoyed playing him, but it was too easy because the consumables weren't really consumable.

[Sandman25]

Is that really a problem in a game where Trog and Fedhas exist?

[dynast]

My problem is not with infinite comsumables but that evocables have too wide a range of effects and, because of that, it is problematic to have a god make that infinite. Having access to infinite ice blast, acid bolt, paralyze, amongst other things by just training evo.

[Arrhythmia]

whoa welcome back sandman! good to see you again.

[Sandman25]

My problem is not with infinite comsumables but that evocables have too wide a range of effects and, because of that, it is problematic to have a god make that infinite. Having access to infinite ice blast, acid bolt, paralyze, amongst other things by just training evo.

I agree but it is a problem with evocations, not with Pakellas. Fortunately it looks like devs agree it is a problem as you can see from recent nerfs of lamp/fan/sack/box etc.

[ydeve]

This is what happens with potions of berserk (Trog), potions of invisibility (Dith), potions of magic (Sif/Vehumet), potions of "agility/might/haste" (Oka), potions of heal wounds (Makh).[/quote]

berserk isn't a consumable effect ("Rage)
inv isn't a consumable effect ([inv)
mp isn't a consumable (5)
Oka doesn't actually grant agility/might/haste, he gives extra skill levels and weapon speed.
Makh doesn't give heal wounds, he gives vampiricism (which is non-consumable).

[Sandman25]

berserk isn't a consumable effect ("Rage)
inv isn't a consumable effect ([inv)
mp isn't a consumable (5)
Oka doesn't actually grant agility/might/haste, he gives extra skill levels and weapon speed.
Makh doesn't give heal wounds, he gives vampiricism (which is non-consumable).

Do you always find/use rage on D1? Even then rage is extremely unreliable, you can die easily while trying to evoke it even at decent Evo. Potion of berserking is exact copy of Trog's ability (0% failure) except it can be used under silence.
Hopefully Inv will be extremely rare in trunk, it will be available only as spell (level 6, good luck with that for non-stabber), potion (clearly consumable, poor Mummy) and ring of the Shadows/robe of the Night (again you will need good Evo as with Rage).
If MP isn't consumable, then I don't see why potions of magic exist, do you always ignore them? Technically wand charge is renewable consumable too (scroll of recharging).
Oka gives more than agility/might/haste (that's why I put it in quotes), Heroism+Finesse combo makes even berserk look pathetic damage-wise, especially vs group of weak monsters and EV/AC boost can be more useful than extra HP sometimes.

[ydeve]

Restoring mp costs time. (That makes it non-consumable by definition. Consumables don't come back. You use them and they're gone. !mp is so rare that you learn to live without them or die. They're a panic button, not something you plan around.) With Sif, you are still paying in time. With Veh, she only restores enough mp to give you one or two extra fireballs. Unlike Pak who gives you unlimited mp (wands are spammable).

I guess Veh can actually give you meaningful amounts of mp in extended, but that's extended.


FWIW I'm not a huge fan of Trog either, but at least he comes with a meaningful drawback (no magic).

The thing is that none of the gods you mentioned are actually built around the concept of giving infinite consumables. Pak is. Take out the infinite consumable aspect of Pak and you don't have a god left. I'm sorry, but I think "soft" wizard mode is a broken god concept.

[duvessa]

(Makhleb, yes, I never use active abilities of Makhleb and believe it is optimal)

Are we just letting this go without comment?

[Sandman25]

Take out the infinite consumable aspect of Pak and you don't have a god left.

I guess this is the root cause of our disagreement. When I played Pak I didn't rely on Evocations, I played as a normal melee character who used evocations for dangerous encounters. This is pretty close how most other gods are used. Technically I didn't need Pak to have infinite charges but I wouldn't pick him if I expected to run out of them.

[Sandman25]

Are we just letting this go without comment?

Do you want to prove me that investment in Invocation for getting hostile Neqoxec/Executioner or weak ranged attack is better than getting weapon/armour/dodging/support spells? If you don't care about hostile Neqoxec/Executioner, you don't need them. I would use those summons as non-mutating species but unfortunately both Gh and Mu don't have spectacular aptitudes and thus usually have more important things to train. Of course in late game and especially extended you can do whatever, even get a couple of Executioners vs pan lords.

Edit. Also the better player you are, the less beneficial those demons become. I mean if my chance to die in a fight is 1% (because I teleport very early), it is a bad idea to summon a demon with 3% hostility chance.

[Siegurt]

Edit. Also the better player you are, the less beneficial those demons become. I mean if my chance to die in a fight is 1% (because I teleport very early), it is a bad idea to summon a demon with 3% hostility chance.

Not if you have < a 33% chance to die to such a demon...

[Sandman25]

Not if you have < a 33% chance to die to such a demon...

Other monsters still exist, they are not automatically dead if I am lucky to get a friendly demon so the new chance to die is not 0% especially since bolt/smite spells, hexes, cleaving exist.
You seem to ignore Neqoxecs/Cacodemons, getting a nasty mutation when you were not going to die anyway is very bad.
Extra monster can mean that I will need to use scroll of blinking instead of pillar-dancing (executioners are fast), teleport (fast demons and demons with ranged attacks can kill me too fast), fear (demons are immune), invisibility (many demons see invis). So it is not about math only.

[dynast]

sees tough monster > kite to the stairs > summon demon. I dont see any other optimal scenario to summon a demon and i dont think its worth wasting invo over something that may at best steal half your exp and at worst kill you.

Most of my pakellas games i only use fighting skills to kill trivial things and inevitably transition to pure fighting at the end. Those two things happens because the evocables interface is awful. The key imputs to use wands and constantly rod swapping are not things you want to use against every enemy and that you just get tired after a certain point.

[ydeve]

If you aren't using Evocations with Pak except when you're in a really bad situation, AND you aren't using the !mp, then how is this any different from playing an atheist that stumbled across a rod? You aren't playing ----^Pak, you're playing ----^?acq. If you aren't actually playing a Pak worshipper, then it's kind of hard to judge the power level of the god based on your gameplay.

[Sandman25]

That's easy to explain, it was Deep Dwarf

http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 230832.txt

[KoboldLord]

Are we just letting this go without comment?

Do you want to prove me that investment in Invocation for getting hostile Neqoxec/Executioner or weak ranged attack is better than getting weapon/armour/dodging/support spells? If you don't care about hostile Neqoxec/Executioner, you don't need them. I would use those summons as non-mutating species but unfortunately both Gh and Mu don't have spectacular aptitudes and thus usually have more important things to train. Of course in late game and especially extended you can do whatever, even get a couple of Executioners vs pan lords.

Edit. Also the better player you are, the less beneficial those demons become. I mean if my chance to die in a fight is 1% (because I teleport very early), it is a bad idea to summon a demon with 3% hostility chance.

If you get a hostile demon, you just reset the fight. You won't die because you're not dumb and you summoned the demon at the beginning of the hard fight and not the end.

The lesser version of the invocation is extremely damaging if you're willing to tank for your demons. They're a bit fragile, but they can drop most level-appropriate monsters in only a couple turns if you can keep that monster from hitting back.

The greater version of the invocation sweeps entire dungeon or lair levels all by itself.

The direct damage invocations are also pretty cheap forms of ranged damage, and you usually don't care what element you get anyway.

[stickyfingers]

DD with vamp doesn't need a god? What a surprise.

And getting lesser servant reliable requires a grand total of Invo 2. GL increasing your dodging from 13.4 to 13.7 instead.

[ydeve]

Here's a MiFi^Pak who's spamming iceblast with a weapon at mindelay on L2. Iceblast is feeling just like fireball, at least in its ability to take out spiny frogs, black mambas, etc, except I don't run out of casts in the middle of a fight. From a pure conjuring standpoint this character is stronger than a DrFE who might have gotten here, and he is in plate with a weapon at mindelay.

Spoiler: show

Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.18.1-47-g9310371 (console) character file.

ydeve1 the Carver (Minotaur Fighter) Turns: 9963, Time: 00:28:21

Health: 82/82 AC: 14 Str: 20 XL: 11 Next: 9%
Magic: 0/17 EV: 3 Int: 5 God: Pakellas [**....]
Gold: 361 SH: 10 Dex: 17 Spells: 0 memorised, 10 levels left

rFire . . . SeeInvis . a - +1 long sword (flame)
rCold + . . Gourm . u - +0 plate armour
rNeg . . . Faith . c - +0 shield
rPois . Spirit . (helmet restricted)
rElec . Dismiss . (no cloak)
rCorr . Reflect . G - +1 pair of gloves {Dex+3}
SustAt . Harm . (no boots)
MR ..... (no amulet)
Stlth .......... (no ring)
p - ring of protection from cold

@: not resistant to hostile enchantments, extremely unstealthy
A: retaliatory headbutt, horns 2
a: Quick Charge, Renounce Religion


You are on level 2 of the Lair of Beasts.
You worship Pakellas.
Pakellas is pleased with you.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 3 branches of the dungeon, and seen 11 of its levels.
You have also visited: Ossuary.

You have collected 569 gold pieces.
You have spent 208 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand Weapons
a - a +1 long sword of flaming (weapon)
Missiles
e - 346 stones (quivered)
w - 11 tomahawks
A - 39 poisoned needles
Armour
c - a +0 shield (worn)
u - a +0 plate armour (worn)
G - a +1 pair of gloves of dexterity (worn)
Jewellery
p - a ring of protection from cold (left hand)
Wands
n - a wand of enslavement (21/24)
y - a wand of iceblast (12/15)
C - a wand of slowing (19/48)
I - a wand of slowing (38/48)
Scrolls
g - a scroll of noise
h - 5 scrolls of amnesia
j - 2 scrolls labeled ASAITE HOITT
k - 5 scrolls of enchant weapon
q - 2 scrolls of magic mapping
t - 3 scrolls of brand weapon
x - 4 scrolls of recharging
D - a scroll of fear
E - 4 scrolls labeled XOESCH YRIOPEIPINO
F - 5 scrolls of remove curse
M - 3 scrolls of identify
O - a scroll labeled WORURYRPH ROYS
Q - a scroll of enchant armour
Potions
d - a potion of might
i - a fuming yellow potion
l - 4 potions of curing
o - a fizzy white potion
r - 3 lumpy grey potions
v - 3 sedimented emerald potions
B - a smoky white potion
H - a white potion
J - a potion of haste
K - 2 amethyst potions
L - 2 inky potions
Books
s - a book of Conjurations

Spells Type Level
a - Magic Dart Conjuration 1
b - Searing Ray Conjuration 2
c - Dazzling Spray Conjuration/Hexes 3
d - Fulminant Prism Conjuration/Hexes 4
e - Iskenderun's Mystic Blast Conjuration 4
f - Iskenderun's Battlesphere Conjuration/Charms 5
Miscellaneous
b - a box of beasts
Comestibles
f - 6 bread rations
m - 9 slices of pizza
z - 3 beef jerkies
N - 7 fruits
P - a meat ration


Skills:
- Level 3.6 Fighting
* Level 14.7 Long Blades
- Level 4.7 Armour
- Level 3.6 Shields
* Level 10.2 Evocations


You have 10 spell levels left.
You don't know any spells.

Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (8/15) Temple (1/1) D:4 Lair (2/8) D:8

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Dithmenos
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Pakellas
Ru
Sif Muna
Trog
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin
The Shining One

Shops:
D:7 *

Annotations:
D:6 ClownBabyJr's ghost, novice HOFi
D:8 Gastronok


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You reflexively headbutt those who attack you in melee.
You have a pair of horns on your head.


Message History

You feel sick.
You continue eating.
You feel sick.
You are no longer poisoned.
e - 325 stones (gained 31)
e - 346 stones (gained 21)
M - 3 scrolls of identify (gained 1)
There is a fountain of clear blue water here.
There is a fountain of clear blue water here.
Found a stone staircase leading down.
Unknown command.
There is a stone staircase leading up here.
You now have 361 gold pieces (gained 20).
O - a scroll labeled WORURYRPH ROYS
No target in view!
You enter the shallow water.
Moving in this stuff is going to be slow.
There is an open door here.
Done exploring.
Unknown command.

.#....#.#+#.#....###...#P...##)..
#.....##..##.....##...P##...#....
##...+.+..P#.....PP....##...#P...
#P...##...###...P.......+...#P...
#P....##..##.....#.....#....#P...
##...###.####....####.###....'...
.#...###.####....# #.# #...#####
#....##.+.##....#####+###...P##.#
##..............@................
#..###.##..#####P#..##.##.#####..
#### ####### ############ #..
♣.P
♣P≈
♣♣≈
♣≈
#≈
##


There are no monsters in sight!

Vanquished Creatures
A black mamba (Lair:2)
2 spiny frogs
3 komodo dragons (Lair:1)
A basilisk (Lair:2)
5 humans
A yak (D:7)
Edmund (D:4)
2 water moccasins
5 porcupines
An orc warrior (D:8)
3 phantoms
2 sky beasts (D:8)
2 ice beasts
A wasp (D:7)
6 ogres
2 centaurs
4 crocodiles
2 elf zombies (Ossuary)
8 giant frogs
17 killer bees
4 howler monkeys
2 giant frog zombies (D:7)
5 crimson imps
6 centaur zombies (Ossuary)
4 human zombies (Ossuary)
A giant frog skeleton (D:8)
3 orc priests (D:4)
4 hounds
Ijyb (Lair:1)
4 iguanas
5 orc wizards
3 worker ants (D:5)
7 sheep
A hound skeleton (D:4)
3 mummies (Ossuary)
12 adders
17 river rats
3 shadow imps
2 oozes
An adder zombie (D:6)
3 worms
An adder skeleton (D:8)
A dart slug (D:1)
7 giant geckos
28 orcs
6 bats
5 giant cockroaches
6 hobgoblins
13 jackals
2 quokkas
A giant cockroach zombie (D:5)
5 giant newts
7 goblins
2 jackal skeletons
11 kobolds
A quokka skeleton (D:8)
A quokka zombie (D:6)
11 rats
268 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
3 plants
3 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 271 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn | Place | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
0 | D:1 | ydeve1 the Minotaur Fighter began the quest for the Orb.
0 | D:1 | Reached XP level 1. HP: 19/19 MP: 0/0
119 | D:1 | Reached skill level 3 in Long Blades
214 | D:1 | Reached XP level 2. HP: 26/26 MP: 1/1
454 | D:1 | Reached skill level 4 in Long Blades
768 | D:2 | Found an ancient bone altar of Kikubaaqudgha.
814 | D:2 | Reached XP level 3. HP: 24/31 MP: 2/2
1235 | D:2 | Reached skill level 5 in Long Blades
1325 | D:2 | Reached XP level 4. HP: 29/39 MP: 3/3
1928 | D:3 | Reached skill level 6 in Long Blades
1950 | D:3 | Reached XP level 5. HP: 45/45 MP: 4/4
2038 | D:3 | Found a basalt altar of Yredelemnul.
2040 | D:3 | Noticed a profane servitor
2052 | D:3 | Found a glowing golden altar of the Shining One.
2114 | D:3 | Found a glowing silver altar of Zin.
2145 | D:3 | Noticed an angel
2295 | D:4 | Noticed an ogre
2784 | D:4 | Found a deep blue altar of Sif Muna.
2844 | D:4 | Reached XP level 6. HP: 37/51 MP: 5/5
2871 | D:4 | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
2877 | Temple | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
2962 | Temple | Became a worshipper of Pakellas the Inventive
3021 | D:4 | Reached skill level 7 in Long Blades
3021 | D:4 | Reached skill level 1 in Evocations
3082 | D:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
3323 | D:5 | Noticed Edmund
3399 | D:5 | Found a sacrificial altar of Ru.
3400 | D:5 | Found an iron altar of Okawaru.
3403 | D:5 | Reached XP level 7. HP: 57/57 MP: 7/7
3475 | D:4 | Reached skill level 8 in Long Blades
3601 | D:4 | Killed Edmund
3853 | D:5 | Reached skill level 9 in Long Blades
3970 | D:5 | Found a shadowy altar of Dithmenos.
4031 | D:5 | Reached XP level 8. HP: 46/64 MP: 10/10
4127 | D:5 | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon.
4139 | D:5 | Reached * piety under Pakellas
4139 | D:5 | Received a gift from Pakellas
4657 | D:6 | Noticed ClownBabyJr's ghost (novice HOFi)
4892 | D:6 | Reached skill level 10 in Long Blades
4970 | D:6 | Reached skill level 5 in Evocations
5132 | D:7 | Found Qobrul's General Store.
5142 | D:7 | Bought a potion of curing for 48 gold pieces
5142 | D:7 | Bought a potion of haste for 160 gold pieces
5384 | D:6 | Noticed a two-headed ogre
5646 | D:7 | Reached skill level 11 in Long Blades
5647 | D:7 | Reached XP level 9. HP: 16/70 MP: 8/12
6281 | D:7 | Found a shattered altar of Ashenzari.
6491 | D:7 | Paralysed by a wasp for 1 turns
6496 | D:7 | Reached skill level 12 in Long Blades
6510 | D:8 | Found a sparkling altar of Nemelex Xobeh.
6586 | D:8 | Found a sand-covered staircase.
6596 | D:8 | Noticed an elephant
6716 | Ossuary | Entered an ossuary
6795 | Ossuary | Reached ** piety under Pakellas
6795 | Ossuary | Received a gift from Pakellas
7000 | D:7 | Reached XP level 10. HP: 33/77 MP: 4/15
7322 | D:8 | Reached skill level 13 in Long Blades
7558 | D:8 | Found a snail-covered altar of Cheibriados.
7575 | D:8 | Found a sacrificial altar of Ru.
7688 | D:8 | Found a staircase to the Lair.
7879 | D:8 | Noticed Gastronok
7892 | Lair:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts
8004 | Lair:1 | Noticed a spiny frog
8007 | Lair:1 | Killed a spiny frog
8144 | Lair:1 | Noticed Ijyb
8146 | Lair:1 | Killed Ijyb
8376 | Lair:1 | Reached skill level 14 in Long Blades
9462 | Lair:2 | Reached skill level 10 in Evocations
9692 | Lair:2 | Noticed a spiny frog
9694 | Lair:2 | Killed a spiny frog
9694 | Lair:2 | Reached XP level 11. HP: 62/82 MP: 1/17

Skill XL: | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 |
---------------+-------------------------------+-----
Long Blades | 3 4 5 6 7 9 11 12 14 | 14.7
Armour | 4 | 4.7
Evocations | 2 4 6 8 10 | 10.2
Fighting | | 3.6
Shields | | 3.6

Action | 1- 3 | 4- 6 | 7- 9 | 10-12 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Long sword | 123 | 146 | 390 | 182 || 841
Headbutt | 17 | 31 | 92 | 47 || 187
Throw: Stone | 4 | 7 | | || 11
Invok: Quick Charge | | | 18 | 13 || 31
Evoke: Wand | | | 17 | 26 || 43
Use: Potion | 1 | | 7 | || 8
Scroll | | | 12 | 1 || 13
Stab: Distracted | | | 1 | || 1
Betrayed ally | | | | 1 || 1
Eat: Chunk | 1 | 7 | 13 | 8 || 29
Meat ration | | | 1 | || 1
Armor: Scale mail | 39 | 4 | | || 43
Plate armour | | 56 | 206 | 63 || 325
Dodge: Dodged | 36 | 21 | 47 | 14 || 118
Block: Shield | 56 | 57 | 177 | 64 || 354

[Tiktacy]

I don't think the devs have a problem with certain gods being overpowered.

I would be okay with Pak if his interface wasn't an absolute nightmare. I feel kind of bad for saying that too, I know the devs work hard to make things like Pak possible, but they really dropped the ball this time. The poll makes that evident, players, or at least tavern goers, are not happy with his current implementation.

[Sandman25]

If you get a hostile demon, you just reset the fight. You won't die because you're not dumb and you summoned the demon at the beginning of the hard fight and not the end.

The lesser version of the invocation is extremely damaging if you're willing to tank for your demons. They're a bit fragile, but they can drop most level-appropriate monsters in only a couple turns if you can keep that monster from hitting back.

The greater version of the invocation sweeps entire dungeon or lair levels all by itself.

The direct damage invocations are also pretty cheap forms of ranged damage, and you usually don't care what element you get anyway.

If I can survive hostile demon AND the monsters I summoned it against, I don't need the demon.

If I can tank damage, I can kill everything. It does not take much skill for player to train offense before defense.

I can clear entire dungeon or lair levels by myself, I don't want to summon an "extremely dangerous" enemy near me, I usually run away from such monsters in advance.

I don't care to throw javelins and nets with most characters, do you think I will use abilities which cost me HP?

DD with vamp doesn't need a god? What a surprise.

And getting lesser servant reliable requires a grand total of Invo 2. GL increasing your dodging from 13.4 to 13.7 instead.

People can't read? What a surprise. You can check the weapon description and find that it wasn't found on D1.
3% chance to get hostile Neqoxec? No, thank you.

[Sandman25]

Here's a MiFi^Pak who's spamming iceblast with a weapon at mindelay on L2. Iceblast is feeling just like fireball, at least in its ability to take out spiny frogs, black mambas, etc, except I don't run out of casts in the middle of a fight. From a pure conjuring standpoint this character is stronger than a DrFE who might have gotten here, and he is in plate with a weapon at mindelay.

Sorry, I think this is a bad example. The character is far from optimal or strong. It would be better with less Evocations, more Fighting/Dodging and ring mail instead of plate armour.

[Psieye]

I don't think the devs have a problem with certain gods being overpowered.

I would be okay with Pak if his interface wasn't an absolute nightmare. I feel kind of bad for saying that too, I know the devs work hard to make things like Pak possible, but they really dropped the ball this time. The poll makes that evident, players, or at least tavern goers, are not happy with his current implementation.

Overpowered is one thing, but dumbing down is another. Still, the poll shows tavern goers don't unanimously hate him. A strong, mixed first reaction shows there's potential to work with.

Sorry, I think this is a bad example. The character is far from optimal or strong.

When you said "I refuse to use Mak's Summon Lesser Demon because of a 3% chance to get a hostile Neqoxec", you surrendered your credibility for judging optimal play. This post just drives that point home.

[ydeve]

The character may be far from optimal, but it's strong enough that I can mindlessly blast and tab-o things through Lair. The fact that such a suboptimal character can do this drives the point home that all the talk of Pak's saved skill points from the consolidation of Magic skills, infinite wand charges, etc aren't actually much of an exaggeration.

[Sandman25]

When you said "I refuse to use Mak's Summon Lesser Demon because of a 3% chance to get a hostile Neqoxec", you surrendered your credibility for judging optimal play. This post just drives that point home.

Not really. There is 12% chance to get hostile demon with Invo 0, I will use it if my life depends on it. But I am not going to risk getting mutated if I am not dying. Though that's quite funny, this is first time when I am accused in playing so well that I don't need extra god help. You are welcome to find my online Makhleb deaths which could be prevented with summons. I can assure you that you won't be able to find them among offline games also, but I got a couple of bad mutations and even died from Makhleb summons before. The death though was not caused by hostile demons, they just stole my heal on kills.

[Sandman25]

When you said "I refuse to use Mak's Summon Lesser Demon because of a 3% chance to get a hostile Neqoxec", you surrendered your credibility for judging optimal play. This post just drives that point home.

Oh, I forgot main argument. If I got 12 runes during orb run as Formicid of Makhleb without level 7+ spells, does it mean I am eligible for judging optimal play with Makhleb?

[Tiktacy]

When you said "I refuse to use Mak's Summon Lesser Demon because of a 3% chance to get a hostile Neqoxec", you surrendered your credibility for judging optimal play. This post just drives that point home.

Oh, I forgot main argument. If I got 12 runes during orb run as Formicid of Makhleb without level 7+ spells, does it mean I am eligible for judging optimal play with Makhleb?

No.

[ManMan]

Are we just letting this go without comment?

Do you want to prove me that investment in Invocation for getting hostile Neqoxec/Executioner or weak ranged attack is better than getting weapon/armour/dodging/support spells? If you don't care about hostile Neqoxec/Executioner, you don't need them. I would use those summons as non-mutating species but unfortunately both Gh and Mu don't have spectacular aptitudes and thus usually have more important things to train. Of course in late game and especially extended you can do whatever, even get a couple of Executioners vs pan lords.

Edit. Also the better player you are, the less beneficial those demons become. I mean if my chance to die in a fight is 1% (because I teleport very early), it is a bad idea to summon a demon with 3% hostility chance.

Do you realize that lesser servant of Makhleb takes only 4 invocations to get down to 1% fail rate and costs negligible piety? Lesser servant is basically a free ability, and I always have it online by lair and spam it at anything dangerous without ever dropping below 6* piety. His other 3 abilities are lackluster though.

[Sandman25]

No.

In this case the same answer is to question either my "mistake" about Makhleb makes me ineligible to say that +0 plate armour and EV 3 is worse than +0 ring mail for a character with decent Dex.

Do you realize that lesser servant of Makhleb takes only 4 invocations to get down to 1% fail rate and costs negligible piety? Lesser servant is basically a free ability, and I always have it online by lair and spam it at anything dangerous without ever dropping below 6* piety. His other 3 abilities are lackluster though.

Do you realize that I am good enough to survive without that ability and I don't need to take unnecessary risk? If the demon is powerful, it can kill me. If the demon is not powerful, I don't need it because I still can die while it attacks monsters. It seems obvious to me but I don't know how to explain it better

Edit. In other words I will survive anyway unless the summoned demon kills me in some way or I get nasty mutations from Nexoqec. So summoning a demon decreases my chance to win. When Invo 4 for lesser demon is irrelevant, the lesser demon is irrelevant too (unless I am Mu stabber and want distraction stabs just to speedup the fight).

[Sprucery]

If the demon is powerful, it can kill me. If the demon is not powerful, I don't need it because I still can die while it attacks monsters. It seems obvious to me but I don't know how to explain it better

Sorry but I don't get this. To you the demon is powerful only if it can kill you. So the demon can not be "powerful enough to help you win the battle without using consumables", for example, but at the same time "not so powerful that it could kill you"?

I know you're a much better player than me, but I always use Makhleb servants (lesser and greater) and I still never die to them. Granted, I haven't played Makhleb in a version without rMut amulets yet. But I heard !curemut is more common now. And I'm pretty sure I haven't had an rMut amulet every time I've taken Makhleb in the past...

In other words I will survive anyway unless the summoned demon kills me in some way or I get nasty mutations from Nexoqec. So summoning a demon decreases my chance to win.

But I would argue that summoning demons saves you more consumables than what you have to use to escape hostile summoned demons. So summoning a demon increases your chance to win.

[Sandman25]

Sorry but I don't get this. To you the demon is powerful only if it can kill you. So the demon can not be "powerful enough to help you win the battle without using consumables", for example, but at the same time "not so powerful that it could kill you"?

Exactly. If it is stronger than me, like me or slightly weaker than me, then it can kill me together with monsters I am already fighting. And if it is much weaker than me, why do I need to waste a turn and piety?

I know you're a much better player than me, but I always use Makhleb servants (lesser and greater) and I still never die to them. Granted, I haven't played Makhleb in a version without rMut amulets yet. But I heard !curemut is more common now. And I'm pretty sure I haven't had an rMut amulet every time I've taken Makhleb in the past...

I am really afraid of mutations, basically they are the only thing that can kill player who puts every MR item on and is careful with tactics.

But I would argue that summoning demons saves you more consumables than what you have to use to escape hostile summoned demons. So summoning a demon increases your chance to win.

It can be useful in some fights indeed, like when you are Ghoul and are about to teleport anyway, you can just summon a lesser servant and see if it is friendly. Still the demon must be much weaker than you but now you have an option to quaff some might instead of reading teleportation if you are low on the latter.

[Sandman25]

The character may be far from optimal, but it's strong enough that I can mindlessly blast and tab-o things through Lair. The fact that such a suboptimal character can do this drives the point home that all the talk of Pak's saved skill points from the consolidation of Magic skills, infinite wand charges, etc aren't actually much of an exaggeration.

Oh, I missed the message. Yes, Pak is not weak and giving wand charges and wands is its main power. You could have similar mindless power with Nemelex, Trog, Fedhas, Makhleb, maybe even Oka, all in the same heavy armour.

[Azarkon]

Sandman, i believe some game mechanics are better left untouched. I dont see the problem with "make this and that stronger", i see a problem with "make expendable resources unlimited". When you are using limited resources you are more likely to make strategical decisions than when you can just spam them.

Wands aren't the only expendable resources in the game, and there are plenty of gods who replace expendable resources as said before with their abilities. Not to mention magic itself, which is what characters who follow Pakellas ultimately give up.

My problem with Pakellas is that he isn't that unique. You can get haste and teleport from spells, fire/lightning/ice from spells, and you can get heal from a god, so you can already get what Pakellas gives you from other gods. And there's nothing stopping a melee/ranged character from learning spells, as most builds people use are in fact hybrids to begin with. So all Pakellas does for you is simplify it, such that instead of having to train Spellcasting+Magic School, you can just train Evocation, instead.

So basically, Pakellas can be seen as an easier path to the hybrid build that most people use, so it feels a bit redundant. As the god of invention, Pakellas doesn't actually let you invent anything, or gives you anything that is inventive/experimental, which feels off. It feels as though an artificer of Pakellas should be able to craft his/her own expendables rather than recharge existing ones, or receive experimental artifacts that no one else can have. That might be a more unique way to design this god.

[amaril]

Dynast made this point, but it definitely seems reasonable to use summon demon while standing on stairs to take out threats (especially individual threats) you could not safely tank alone. I suppose you can still get mutated the turn you summon a nexoquec, maybe?

Anyways, in regards to the thread topic, I feel like the 'defining gimmick' of evocations tries to be "variety of powerful effects with a limited number of uses." (If this is true, one problem w/ evo in general is that 'limited number of uses' means totally different things depending on the evocable in question.) Pakellas' gimmick is "god of unlimited wand charges." I think it is undesirable for Pakellas to basically remove the downside (and the only distinguishing characteristic) of evocations. This is different from Sif/Veh's removal of MP because MP is not the only defining characteristic of magic (for example, magic is also defined by skilling/armour demands and differentiation between schools).