Species "Concept": Colossus


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Post Wednesday, 22nd June 2016, 03:14

Species "Concept": Colossus

Colossus
While known for their size and brute strength, the Colossus are not very intelligent, nor are they good at dodging or manipulating small objects. They are too large to fit into most types of armour, cannot wield a shortblade, and have difficulty with bows and crossbows. Their thick skin and sheer size make them resistant to poisons and magic, more difficult to injure, and allows them to greatly excel at melee combat and throwing things.

Attributes
  Code:
xp_mod: -1
hp_mod:  3
mp_mod: -1
stealth_mod: 5
mr_mod: 5
HT_LAND (Can cross deep water though, so maybe HT_WATER?)
US_ALIVE
SIZE_GIANT

Str, Dex, Int: 20, 4, 3     //27
{ STAT_STR, STAT_DEX }, 3


Weirdness and Mutations
  Code:
+ rPois (1,1)   // level of mutation, character level mutation is received
+ rNeg (1,1)
+ tough_skin (3,1)
+ sturdy_frame (3,1)

- Cannot wear most types of body armour (DA being the exception, can also wear cloaks)
- Cannot wear gloves
- Cannot wear boots
- Cannot wear helms (hats are allowed)
- Cannot wear bucklers
- Cannot wield or train shortblades
- Cannot wield or train slings
- Cannot wield blowguns
- Cannot train stealth

- Can wield a 2HW in one hand and use a shield
- All melee attacks have reach (polearms range is not extended)


Aptitudes
  Code:
// SP_COLOSSUS
FIGHTING         0
SHORT_BLADES    N/A
LONG_BLADES     -1
AXES            -1
MACES_FLAILS    -1
POLEARMS        -1
STAVES          -1
SLINGS          N/A
BOWS            -4
CROSSBOWS       -4
THROWING         0
ARMOUR          -2
DODGING,        -2
STEALTH         N/A
SHIELDS          0
UNARMED_COMBAT  -1
SPELLCASTING     0
CONJURATIONS    -2
HEXES           -2
CHARMS          -2
SUMMONINGS      -2
NECROMANCY      -2
TRANSLOCATIONS  -3
TRANSMUTATIONS  -3
FIRE_MAGIC      -2
ICE_MAGIC,      -2
AIR_MAGIC,      -2
EARTH_MAGIC,    -1
POISON_MAGIC,   -2

INVOCATIONS,     1
EVOCATIONS,     -2


While there is some overlap with some existing species, I feel that there is enough uniqueness and open design space here for Colossus to be character playable.
Last edited by infinitevox on Wednesday, 22nd June 2016, 05:21, edited 2 times in total.
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Post Wednesday, 22nd June 2016, 03:37

Re: Species Proposal: Giants

You mashed together Ogres and Formicids and then threw in a couple resists and weird gimmicks. I don't get it.

Why would anyone play Og/Fo if this exists? Why do they have the -encumbrance mutation, and reaching on everything? Why no slings and bad bows/xbows apts when their throwing is fine and they already presumably have access to large rocks? What's the central idea behind this species, from a gameplay perspective?

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Post Wednesday, 22nd June 2016, 04:07

Re: Species Proposal: Giants

I can answer all your questions with the dpeg standard answer - Theme
But to clarify:
They're extremely large and sturdy, so they get Sturdy_Frame. (While they don't fit in most types of body armour, the ones that do fit hardly cause them any problems)
They're arms are long, so they can reach further with their attacks (Much like a tall human can reach things on the top shelf, Giants can reach monsters standing behind you)
They're hands are huge, so manipulating slings is basically impossible (Those beefy sausage fingers are gonna have a real hard time gripping and manipulating a sling)
Bows/Xbows aren't made for creatures of their size, so while they can use them, they're not good at it (Too big and strong, its easy to over pull a bow/xbow and break it)

The central idea for the species is more similar to Troll than Og/Fo; A race that has an easy time early game, but starts to fall off the further along you go.
They're too big for many items, incapable of being stealthy, but provide a unique combat advantage (damage and reach)
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Post Wednesday, 22nd June 2016, 04:14

Re: Species Proposal: Giants

just compile that trunk version that gave reaching to all weapons and play an ogre in that
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Post Wednesday, 22nd June 2016, 04:16

Re: Species Proposal: Giants

The idea of a species that can reach with any weapon is cool and unique (although it invalidates an entire class of melee weapons so I'm not sure it's *good*), but everything else seems extraneous.

I feel like you took the best parts of Og (GSC), Fo (2h) and Gr (rTorment) and combined them. You didn't answer shard's main question: why would anyone play Og/Fo if this exists?

PS, +80% HP!!!!!
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Post Wednesday, 22nd June 2016, 04:22

Re: Species Proposal: Giants

I don't play ogres, so honestly, I can't answer that one.
As for Fo, I pick them for their Dig & Shaft ability more than anything else.

I feel like if they couldn't use a 2HW and shield, someone would have picked on me for that too ;p ("They're HUGE and they can't wield a 2HW in one hand? That doesn't make sense!")
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Post Wednesday, 22nd June 2016, 04:34

Re: Species Proposal: Giants

infinitevox wrote:The central idea for the species is more similar to Troll than Og/Fo; A race that has an easy time early game, but starts to fall off the further along you go.
I don't see how you can say that this species is more similar to troll than formicid when it has formicid's main advantage(2H+shield) and does not have troll's(claws, regen). Without Fo's stasis, mind, which is a bigger deal than "no normal body armors". Granted, it's more similar to Ogre than Fo, but that doesn't help much.

This would not fall off the further along you go, it would be pretty dang great at all parts of the game(huge HP, great use with shields, good resists, etc) especially later on once you have access to dragon armors.
Also just copying the unique aspect of one weapon class onto all the others invalidates the point of having those different weapon classes to begin with. If you don't give them reaching on everything, then you have a more interesting situation where you actually have to choose between polearms for reaching, axes for cleaving, maces for good reliable damage, long blades for highest possible damage with the right weapons... there's more choice for the player if you don't just make polearms worthless compared to everything else.
And I still do not understand why they cannot use slings and have terrible bows/xbows apts. There's no reason to make any of those options any worse than +0, because you are already so heavily incentivized to use throwing instead since you are one of few species that can use large rocks.

It's too many things at once and several of those things are very powerful. There's no real gameplay cohesion, and honestly, not really any thematic consistency either. Why do they have rN+ and rPois+? Out of the 9 types of giants in the game, only the recently added Iron Giants have rPois(because they are made of metal), none of the other giant enemies do-and none of them at all have rN+. Why is this species great with shields? No giants in the whole game use shields, period-so even if we're ignoring the huge redundancy with Fo and looking at that from only a flavor perspective, it doesn't make much sense.
chequers wrote:PS, +80% HP!!!!!
To be clear here, Ogres only have +30% HP, and no innate resistances at all! Especially not torment resist. And no "-encumbrance" mutation, and no "reaching on everything", and cannot cross deep water, and only get tough skin 1.

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Post Wednesday, 22nd June 2016, 05:15

Re: Species Proposal: Giants

I can see your hostility oozing through the screen... relax dude, I'm not murdering your first born, I'm just making a suggestion.
Remember, this is a very rough first draft, its mostly some ideas I had rolling around in my head that I thought could spark some discussion and maybe get some feedback on.

Your argument for allowing reaching to all weapons can also be used against Fo (2H+shield). That ability "removes an interesting situation" wrt weapon choice. I actually considered stipulating that they get +1 reach on polearms too, but decided against it as I was thinking that could cause some fairly degenerate tactics and interactions.
I'm also mulling around the idea of giving them an extremely limited "cleave-like" ability instead.
@ - r - r
If you attacked the "r" furthest away from you (max 2 tiles), you would also deal damage to the "r" right in front of you.

The reason for no slings is: Slings are too hard to manipulate for a species with HUGE hands and barely any dexterity.
Terrible apts for bow/xbows: Pretty much the same as slings, except they're capable of grasping and manipulating them without crushing them, but they still have to be extremely careful or they'll snap the things in half drawing the string back.
It's a decision based almost purely on theme. Critters this big don't use bows or slings, because they can crush monsters into paste by throwing a door from halfway across the dungeon.

I'll just rename them to Gargantuan or Colossus then. Because it seems like a large number of your issues are basically bikeshedding, or comparing the monster version to the player version I'm cooking up. If it helps differentiate things or get rid of a preconceived bias, that's an easy fix.

rN & rPois, once again, because sheer size. A creature that big has an incredible life force, draining it would not only be more difficult, but they're less likely to be affected if it were. And with a body that big, it would take a very strong poison, or a lot of it, to have any kind of noticeable effect on them.
They're shield aptitude is a result of what I consider a natural forward thought process. To explain further, they've adapted to blocking attacks with things since they know they make easy to hit targets and they have a hard time finding body protection. It seemed like a logical conclusion, even for a species with very low intelligence. "Don't wanna get hit, hide behind thing!"
The HP thing was a mistake, I thought it was 50%, not 80%. But that's probably excessive.
Honestly I attempt to put torment resistance on just about every suggestion I toss out there because I consider torment a huge hassle. I'll probably never succeed on this endeavor, but it doesn't hurt to try.
Ogre's also have much better aptitudes, especially with regards to playing book backgrounds. Also, this isn't an ogre or an ogre rework. :p
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Post Wednesday, 22nd June 2016, 05:19

Re: Species Proposal: Giants

infinitevox wrote:I can see your hostility oozing through the screen... relax dude, I'm not murdering your first born, I'm just making a suggestion.
Remember, this is a very rough first draft, its mostly some ideas I had rolling around in my head that I thought could spark some discussion and maybe get some feedback on.
When you use the word "Proposal", readers generally expect an idea with a modicum of critical thought behind it. Also, Shard1697 isn't being hostile by explaining why your bad idea is bad, they're giving you the feedback that you claim to want.

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Post Wednesday, 22nd June 2016, 05:32

Re: Species "Concept": Colossus

Anyone else remember that magic school bus episode where one of the kids is inventing a new instrument, but because they put so much "cool" nonsense on it it turned out garbage?

It's ok if flavor gives you inspiration for a new species/god/whatever, but if the idea doesn't stand out as unique or interesting when all of the flavor is removed, then the idea is bad. Or turned around, the idea is alright if you can remove everything superfluous to the main idea and you still have something interesting left.
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Post Wednesday, 22nd June 2016, 05:54

Re: Species Proposal: Giants

infinitevox wrote:I'll just rename them to Gargantuan or Colossus then. Because it seems like a large number of your issues are basically bikeshedding, or comparing the monster version to the player version I'm cooking up. If it helps differentiate things or get rid of a preconceived bias, that's an easy fix.
My main issues are not issues of flavor, they are issues of gameplay-aka, this whole proposal seems to be based entirely on flavor when Crawl is a game that aims for good game design first, flavor second. When I say things like "why does it have all these resists? even monster giants don't have these", my main issue is still that it's super unbalanced, I'm just saying that it also doesn't make much sense from a flavor perspective, so even if you are looking at it from that angle exclusively it shouldn't get a pass.
The slings/bows/xbows thing is a good example of this, there's not really a gameplay reason to give them those restrictions... and having slightly worse apts than ogres doesn't really balance this species. Ogres with more HP and gargoyle resists is bonkers, and that's before we even get to innate-everything-reaching and lower encumbrance.
infinitevox wrote:rN & rPois, once again, because sheer size. A creature that big has an incredible life force, draining it would not only be more difficult, but they're less likely to be affected if it were. And with a body that big, it would take a very strong poison, or a lot of it, to have any kind of noticeable effect on them.
This is again an argument from a purely flavor perspective, no thought for the gameplay implications(which are the most important thing in a game, especially a game like DCSS...). Also, again it doesn't make flavor sense-it's just not an established thing in Crawl that big things are poison resistant or drain resistant. In fact, poison is pretty good at dealing with many giants, and drain is good against all of them... beating a big dude by "playing dirty" is a common theme in many stories, no?

Also wrt rPois, having more HP already means that "with a body that big, it would take a very strong poison, or a lot of it, to have any kind of noticeable effect on them"... you have more HP, so it takes more poison damage(or drain!) to kill them already! Adding rPois on is superfluous, the "requiring more poison to kill a huge dude" flavor is already represented by having extra HP.
infinitevox wrote:Your argument for allowing reaching to all weapons can also be used against Fo (2H+shield). That ability "removes an interesting situation" wrt weapon choice. I actually considered stipulating that they get +1 reach on polearms too, but decided against it as I was thinking that could cause some fairly degenerate tactics and interactions.
I'm also mulling around the idea of giving them an extremely limited "cleave-like" ability instead.
Sort of, in that you aren't making the choice between 1H and 2H, but you are still choosing between each of the different weapon schools. Your proposal is just a "don't use polearms" for reasons which aren't clear to me... why have a species that has innate reaching when a system for enabling reaching via choosing a specific weapon school already exists in the game? Perhaps an argument could be made for it if a species was built around specifically that, but I'm not seeing it here(and even then I'm a little dubious).
Fo's have a decently strong design niche in that they can't teleport/haste, so have to choose battles more carefully, but with digging can limit fights to 1v1 more easily, and "shields with anything" plays into this well because shields are strongest against 1 enemy at a time. So their weakness naturally leads you to take advantage of their strengths. The different design aspects play well with each other, where with this, it feels like you're throwing darts at a list of possible things a species could have. Or, more specifically, things you want a species to have, because you want to play an OP species that doesn't have to worry about HP, weapons, poison, torment...

In modern crawl, species have to have meaningful distinctions between each other to remain in the game. This is why mountain dwarves no longer exist but hill orcs still do, why there's like less than half the number of elves there once was, etc. You want a strong "idea" in a gameplay sense for a species for it to be good, not just something very similar to another species but with some other advantages plastered over it.
infinitevox wrote:I can see your hostility oozing through the screen... relax dude, I'm not murdering your first born, I'm just making a suggestion.
Remember, this is a very rough first draft, its mostly some ideas I had rolling around in my head that I thought could spark some discussion and maybe get some feedback on.
Here's the most constructive feedback I think I can give: focus in on one of the advantages you are interested in here. Just one, like "super huge HP" or "innate -encumbrance" or even "innate reaching". Then, without adding on any more advantages, try adding a disadvantage or two according to how strong the advantage is(perhaps no disadvantage if you think the advantage isn't very powerful). Try to keep aptitudes mostly flat. After all that, think up the flavor for the species.
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Post Wednesday, 22nd June 2016, 06:14

Re: Species "Concept": Colossus

Basically, your species is OP, and the reason why is "flavour".

I suggest you play some OgBe with either GSC or an eveningstar/dwhip+large shield. It plays very similarly to how I think you want this species to work.
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Post Wednesday, 22nd June 2016, 09:37

Re: Species "Concept": Colossus

I would remove wielded weapon use entirely, and allow large rocks and javelins as only throwables. Why? Because the guy would have no opposable thumbs. Smaller things are just too hard to handle. No giant in the game uses shields (AFAIR), so I also would make shields unusable.
Since he's so big (2 sizes more than a troll), healing stuff is less effective; poison resist OK for the same reason. OK for cloaks, not so sure about DA, I'd limit him to hides and maybe give it some sort of though skin progression.

In the end, it would become an oversized, loud, innately armoured Felid that can throw boulders and wear some items with innate reach.
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Post Wednesday, 22nd June 2016, 13:22

Re: Species "Concept": Colossus

This is the same suggestion that gets suggested over and over again. Sometimes it gets mixed with the two headed suggestion (that will never happen).

If a giant race gets added most likely it would be a very difficult challenge race imo, with some kind of painful gimmick (no armor is not enough), otherwise it just ends up being an overpowered version of other existing races.

And nobody seemed hostile to you or your idea. (Maybe a bit of the 'my opinion is fact' vibe, but of course it's silly to expect people to say 'in my opinion' before every sentence.)

Most of us agree though that there is just not enough difference. This race, or even one that was very similar but was balanced better, would just be a replacement for other races. Even now og and tr aren't that hugely different imo (though I rarely play them).

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