The Tavern

It's annoying how everyone against this change seems to think it's "arbitrary". I said why I made the commit: "more equitable distribution of unique's genders".

I think this argument is self-evident, which is not code for "arbitrary". It is code for "I think you can figure out the rest of the argument from the snippet I posted".

Since you can't, here's a fleshed out version:

Convert a few uniques from male to female.

The current gender balance for uniques is about 70/30 M/F, which is quite uneven. There's no real in-universe reason. It reflects an unconscious preference for creating male uniques by past creators. This is fine. Unfortunately, the gender balance now implies something unintended about the crawl universe. To compensate, change several uniques from men to women. Uniques based on real-life references are not touched.

Also neuter Pan lords, matching the general demonic trend.

The final gender distribution is closer to 55/45.

its real dumb

The final gender distribution is closer to 55/45.

thats great thanks for all your hard work gentlemean

this is what its all about and when my kids are all grown up and off to college im looking forward to sitting down and playing crawl, where i can slaughter 9 female uniques for every 11 male uniques

Since you're apparently responding to my quip about self-evidence: my point was not that I believe this change to be "arbitrary" or that I can't figure out why someone would make it. Nothing I said suggested either thing (because, frankly, I have no desire to discuss politics here), and I don't know why you jump to those conclusions. My point was that if someone asks you to explain or justify your actions, saying "it's self-evident that the result is better" is not giving an answer; it's just refusing to play the game of explaining your actions. Sure, nothing really forces you to explain yourself, but if you act like you're doing so when you're not, someone might point it out.

andreas wrote:Since you're apparently responding to my quip about self-evidence: my point was not that I believe this change to be "arbitrary" or that I can't figure out why someone would make it. Nothing I said suggested either thing (because, frankly, I have no desire to discuss politics here), and I don't know why you jump to those conclusions. My point was that if someone asks you to explain or justify your actions, saying "it's self-evident that the result is better" is not giving an answer; it's just refusing to play the game of explaining your actions. Sure, nothing really forces you to explain yourself, but if you act like you're doing so when you're not, someone might point it out.

ladies he's single (sorry just assuming)

chequers wrote:It's annoying how everyone against this change seems to think it's "arbitrary". I said why I made the commit: "more equitable distribution of unique's genders".

I think this argument is self-evident, which is not code for "arbitrary". It is code for "I think you can figure out the rest of the argument from the snippet I posted".

Since you can't, here's a fleshed out version:

Convert a few uniques from male to female.

The current gender balance for uniques is about 70/30 M/F, which is quite uneven. There's no real in-universe reason. It reflects an unconscious preference for creating male uniques by past creators. This is fine. Unfortunately, the gender balance now implies something unintended about the crawl universe. To compensate, change several uniques from men to women. Uniques based on real-life references are not touched.

Also neuter Pan lords, matching the general demonic trend.

The final gender distribution is closer to 55/45.

What is it implying about the crawl universe by having humanoid males and females be consistent with the males and females of reality? I am genuinely trying to understand the purpose behind this and I just can't wrap my mind around why having more uniques be female would be somehow equitable when there is nothing in the crawl universe(or in reality for that matter) that implies females and males are equal in physical prowess.

The reality is, uniques were created with an image in mind, and that image should be respected and not tampered with for no reason.

yesno wrote:
andreas wrote:Since you're apparently responding to my quip about self-evidence: my point was not that I believe this change to be "arbitrary" or that I can't figure out why someone would make it. Nothing I said suggested either thing (because, frankly, I have no desire to discuss politics here), and I don't know why you jump to those conclusions. My point was that if someone asks you to explain or justify your actions, saying "it's self-evident that the result is better" is not giving an answer; it's just refusing to play the game of explaining your actions. Sure, nothing really forces you to explain yourself, but if you act like you're doing so when you're not, someone might point it out.

ladies he's single (sorry just assuming)

brutal...

Tiktacy wrote:The reality is, uniques were created with an image in mind, and that image should be respected and not tampered with for no reason.

lmao

EDIT: re-read the quoted post and now i'm lmaoing @ the first half as well

Tiktacy wrote:giant ant men can dig through rock walls as fast as they can run

No, formicids are slower when they dig.

chequers wrote:Unfortunately, the gender balance [implied] something unintended about the crawl universe

What's that? Oh, that the dungeon's monsters aren't enlisted / promoted to uniques with gender quotas? K, glad we fixed that.

This thread has changed me.

Originally I was completely apathetic because there is no reason to care, but the level of dumb is so overwhelmingly great on one side that I would like all Crawl Uniques to be female, please.

Also all non-uniques.

And player dolls.

And every time you gain a level the screen should flash YOU ARE FEMALE in 42 point font.

PleasingFungus wrote:
Tiktacy wrote:The reality is, uniques were created with an image in mind, and that image should be respected and not tampered with for no reason.

lmao

EDIT: re-read the quoted post and now i'm lmaoing @ the first half as well

You must have a very sensitive ass for it to be falling off so easily. :roll:

are you hitting at him

Sar wrote:are you hitting at him

Maybe

fun q: if ijyb, aizul, etc were always female, would you want them to be changed to be male?

Tiktacy wrote:You must have a very sensitive ass for it to be falling off so easily.

please be gentle w/my ass

Arrhythmia wrote: i want consistency more than anything

Proposal: all demons are male and all holies are female. It's consistent internally and externally, and simplifies coding because sometimes all you'd have to do would be a holiness check. TSO would be DA PIMP, and Makhleb a total sausage master. What's not to love?

ijyb is a nasty petty ltitle shitboy goblin but now he's a nasty petty little shitgirl goblin. you dont have to be a boy to be a nasty petty little shitgoblin. this is what progress looks like. this is crawling into the future

New Ijyb concept art:

PleasingFungus wrote:
yesno wrote:
andreas wrote:Since you're apparently responding to my quip about self-evidence: my point was not that I believe this change to be "arbitrary" or that I can't figure out why someone would make it. Nothing I said suggested either thing (because, frankly, I have no desire to discuss politics here), and I don't know why you jump to those conclusions. My point was that if someone asks you to explain or justify your actions, saying "it's self-evident that the result is better" is not giving an answer; it's just refusing to play the game of explaining your actions. Sure, nothing really forces you to explain yourself, but if you act like you're doing so when you're not, someone might point it out.

ladies he's single (sorry just assuming)

brutal...

My feelings were hurt. I guess yesno can be happy with himself.

Tiktacy wrote:What is it implying about the crawl universe by having humanoid males and females be consistent with the males and females of reality? I am genuinely trying to understand the purpose behind this

1. Crawl isn't intended to be consistent with reality. It has dragons and potions of invisibility.
2. Even if crawl was intended to be consistent with reality, crawl's previous design was not consistent with reality. You can use the same throwing net on tiny and large monsters.
3. Even if the previous design was consistent with reality, the previous design was not consistent with how you describe reality. Fannar, Jorgrun, Tiamat, etc are all uniques with non-gender-archetypal stats.

PleasingFungus wrote:fun q: if ijyb, aizul, etc were always female, would you want them to be changed to be male?

Tiktacy wrote:You must have a very sensitive ass for it to be falling off so easily.

please be gentle w/my ass

I always thought Aizul WAS a girl.

Ijyb really should not have been changed though. That one just doesn't make sense to me, unless you flavor ijyb and that new goblin unique as husband and wife, that would be hilarious.

andreas wrote:
My feelings were hurt. I guess yesno can be happy with himself.

yea i feel great about being here, participating in this conversation

I've become obsessed with marrying Aizul now that her gender matches my sexual preferences, please revert this change for the sake of my mental health.

Tiktacy wrote:
PleasingFungus wrote:fun q: if ijyb, aizul, etc were always female, would you want them to be changed to be male?

Tiktacy wrote:You must have a very sensitive ass for it to be falling off so easily.

please be gentle w/my ass

I always thought Aizul WAS a girl.

Ijyb really should not have been changed though. That one just doesn't make sense to me, unless you flavor ijyb and that new goblin unique as husband and wife, that would be hilarious.

I hate to break it to you man, but Robin is also female.

chequers wrote:
Tiktacy wrote:What is it implying about the crawl universe by having humanoid males and females be consistent with the males and females of reality? I am genuinely trying to understand the purpose behind this

1. Crawl isn't intended to be consistent with reality. It has dragons and potions of invisibility.
2. Even if crawl was intended to be consistent with reality, crawl's previous design was not consistent with reality. You can use the same throwing net on tiny and large monsters.
3. Even if the previous design was consistent with reality, the previous design was not consistent with how you describe reality. Fannar, Jorgrun, Tiamat, etc are all uniques with non-gender-archetypal stats.

1. I never said it was, I asked what is it implying by having a portion of the game that IS consistent. Not an argument.
2. Again, I never said it was, I asked what it was implying. Not an argument.
3. Fannar is an elf, which are known for their magical affinity and fragility. Jorgrun is tough as fuck and hits like a truck, he is very consistent. Tiamat is a diety of dragonkin, it would make sense that she is powerful. All of those examples are explained and make sense within the context of the game. Ijyb and grinder being female does not.

Do you have an answer to the question or not?

wheals wrote:I hate to break it to you man, but Robin is also female.

Yang is associated with warmth and maleness, so clearly Xtahua should be male. Yin is associated with cold and femaleness. Therefore Fannar's gender makes no sense. Don't blame me, this is just science, people.

On another topic, meta-analysis of studies of men and women shows that on almost every studied trait, there's much more variation within a given gender than between the two genders; that is to say, the bell curves of male and female quantities of a given trait substantially overlap. That includes physical strength broadly. The one exception is, interestingly, throwing distance, where men tend to significantly outperform women.

Of course, even if that weren't true, it would be baffling to choose that being able to create raging fires from thin air is a good kind of defiance of reality while a strong woman is a bad kind of defiance of reality. It would be hard to imagine that someone who chooses that distinction is doing it for some reason other than holding strong preferences about the relative roles of men and women.

Tiktacy wrote:3. Fannar is an elf, which are known for their magical affinity and fragility. Jorgrun is tough as fuck and hits like a truck, he is very consistent. Tiamat is a diety of dragonkin, it would make sense that she is powerful. All of those examples are explained and make sense within the context of the game. Ijyb and grinder being female does not.

Do you have an answer to the question or not?

Lasty wrote:Don't blame me, this is just science, people.

Thats not science.

I'm on board with the rest of what you were saying though.

ontoclasm wrote:
yesno wrote:in webtiles all the characters use the male tile

Not that it matters, but this isn't true. In WebTiles everyone uses the first doll tile on the list for their species, and those are intentionally ordered so that some "defaults" are male and some female. It'd be neat if we could pick a random one for each character or something, but that's outside my coding ability.

I play on Tiamat or Lamia tiles, that is, until gammafunk give me the random cat tiles.

chequers wrote:1. Crawl isn't intended to be consistent with reality. It has dragons and potions of invisibility.
2. Even if crawl was intended to be consistent with reality, crawl's previous design was not consistent with reality. You can use the same throwing net on tiny and large monsters.
3. Even if the previous design was consistent with reality, the previous design was not consistent with how you describe reality. Fannar, Jorgrun, Tiamat, etc are all uniques with non-gender-archetypal stats.

and yet, your decision that the sex ratio of uniques was out of balance is based strictly on our reality. who's to say whether or not any given species in crawl has the same ratios as we see in nature? maybe men naturally outnumber women in the crawl universe, and the previous balance of uniques reflected that.

chequers wrote:1. Crawl isn't intended to be consistent with reality. It has dragons and potions of invisibility.

This is a terrible argument. At least it's not original.

Reptisaurus wrote: the level of dumb is so overwhelmingly great on one side...

... that this thread is getting bookmarked for future entertainment.

Lasty wrote:On another topic, meta-analysis of studies of men and women shows that on almost every studied trait, there's much more variation within a given gender than between the two genders; that is to say, the bell curves of male and female quantities of a given trait substantially overlap. That includes physical strength broadly. The one exception is, interestingly, throwing distance, where men tend to significantly outperform women.

Of course, even if that weren't true, it would be baffling to choose that being able to create raging fires from thin air is a good kind of defiance of reality while a strong woman is a bad kind of defiance of reality. It would be hard to imagine that someone who chooses that distinction is doing it for some reason other than holding strong preferences about the relative roles of men and women.

But of course it is true, so claims that you can't have a female Ijyb tougher than the average male goblin are ungrounded in (either) reality. Uniques are unique, so there's no reason why they should be in the middle of the bell curve.

dynast wrote:
ontoclasm wrote:
yesno wrote:in webtiles all the characters use the male tile

Not that it matters, but this isn't true. In WebTiles everyone uses the first doll tile on the list for their species, and those are intentionally ordered so that some "defaults" are male and some female. It'd be neat if we could pick a random one for each character or something, but that's outside my coding ability.

I play on Tiamat or Lamia tiles, that is, until gammafunk give me the random cat tiles.

Lamia is the saddest I've ever been about something being removed.

I mean come on! She fucking ate people! How badass can you get!?

If you like eating people you can always play one of the 23 species that do so

Lasty wrote:hard to imagine that someone who chooses that distinction is doing it for some reason other than holding strong preferences about the relative roles of men and women.

it is?
either way, that reason is bad?
and twisting atmosphere to satisfy a desire to see equal outcome (more=better?) in a game is good?

I'm not judging, it's just that many people are heavily implying that some particular agenda is good and obviously good, but avoid stating the design goals, and thus they really obfuscate their position.

Keep in mind not all of us have PhDs in genderology or whatever.

dynast wrote:
ontoclasm wrote:
yesno wrote:in webtiles all the characters use the male tile

Not that it matters, but this isn't true. In WebTiles everyone uses the first doll tile on the list for their species, and those are intentionally ordered so that some "defaults" are male and some female. It'd be neat if we could pick a random one for each character or something, but that's outside my coding ability.

I play on Tiamat or Lamia tiles, that is, until gammafunk give me the random cat tiles.

I think the cat changing every UI action is really ugly, but if you actually want that, just replace your tiamat line in your rc with:

Code:: player_tiles = {{mons = "feild", tile = "felid", num_var=10}}

Having it change to a new kitty every 100 turns or XL change would be better, but you need to upgrade your RandomTiles. You use a default RC otherwise, so I'd recommend you just completely replace your current RC with:

Code:: #{ # player_tiles = {{mons = "tiamat", tile = "mons_tiamat", num_var=9}} #} { player_tiles = {{mons = "felid", tile = "felid", num_var=10, var_type = "fixed"}} } { function ready() -- Enable random tile random_tile() end } include += RandomTiles.rc

Then you can comment out / uncomment the tiamat or cat tiles and RandomTiles itself as you like. You can also use macros to choose the tile and enable/disable RandomTiles without having to edit your RC, but you probably don't mind editing it. If you're interested in using the macros, see RandomTiles documentation.

For the record, I'm not even against the changing itself, I don't care if they are male or female. As I said before crawl is a fantasy world with oceans under ground and ants that can basically sprint through rock walls(and as has been mentioned, uniques are meant to be, well, unique). In fact I am in favor of many of the changes, they actually make a lot of sense to me.

However, the apparent reasoning for it leads me to believe that the devs responsible for the change are more interested in pandering to a political agenda than actually improving the flavor of their uniques.

Of course, all this assumes that the "political agenda" of "gender equity" is in fact their reasoning, which I don't actually know. So in a way, this is just speculation, and a conditional fuck you for bringing gender politics into the game(if that is in fact what is going on). If its not the reasoning, then consider this a conditional thumbs up.

lol @ the idea that crawl is a forum in which one can meaningfully "pander to a political agenda"

The point is that "gender politics" were already in the game, and this change just reflects a different stance within that context. chequers' commit notes made that very clear.

So thanks for admitting that your complaint is not about the effect of the change on the game, but actually about the way you feel when you think you're being exposed to a particular ideology that you'd rather ignore. And apparently the ideology you don't like being reminded of is...that some people prefer to treat women as equals? What does that say about you?

But the broader point is that this is a volunteer-developed video game and the folks developing it can do whatever they want for any reason they want. Anyone who perceives this as having an "agenda" forced upon them is taking things too seriously.

I read through this thread and all I got was several minutes closer to the grave

But if it's not too much trouble, please bring back Ereshkigal's monster tits.

I think it's perfectly reasonable for the devs to decide they'd like a more equal gender balance and to act on that decision.

wow if you search "gender", 9/94 threads are locked
people are razzing each other over being uncomfortable about ideas
something fishy is going on and I don't understand it while people are smug all around me, i mean, you don't see quite this in discussions of other design decisions

BTW

ydeve wrote: claims that you can't have a female Ijyb tougher than the average male goblin are ungrounded in (either) reality. Uniques are unique, so there's no reason why they should be in the middle of the bell curve.

this argument falls on its face because uniques are extraordinary and thus out of the middle; you're really looking at the tails of the distribution, and dozens of outliers (uniques) taken from that tail, which form their own distribution, and it is claimed that the high end, the top <1%, is better divided evenly. So current design is to stratify monsters, and balance their gender at special levels of distinction, because, maybe, the "corrupting influence of the realm of zot" is turning the dungeon into some kind of egalitarian utopia?

tedric wrote:lol @ the idea that crawl is a forum in which one can meaningfully "pander to a political agenda"

The point is that "gender politics" were already in the game, and this change just reflects a different stance within that context. chequers' commit notes made that very clear.

So thanks for admitting that your complaint is not about the effect of the change on the game, but actually about the way you feel when you think you're being exposed to a particular ideology that you'd rather ignore. And apparently the ideology you don't like being reminded of is...that some people prefer to treat women as equals? What does that say about you?

But the broader point is that this is a volunteer-developed video game and the folks developing it can do whatever they want for any reason they want. Anyone who perceives this as having an "agenda" forced upon them is taking things too seriously.

Cheibrodos wrote:I read through this thread and all I got was several minutes closer to the grave

But if it's not too much trouble, please bring back Ereshkigal's monster tits.

how about giving eresh the +9 gsc of fertility?

Cheibrodos wrote:I read through this thread and all I got was several minutes closer to the grave

But if it's not too much trouble, please bring back Ereshkigal's monster tits.

Is this just a joke or did Ereshkigal ACTUALLY have tits?

I can't really even imagine what that looks like.

You could load up an older version and go on a wizmode visit.

Or just look at the tile sheet.

4Hooves2Appendages wrote:You could load up an older version and go on a wizmode visit.

Where can you find older versions for download?

To my knowledge, you can't do wizmode online.

Tiktacy wrote:
Cheibrodos wrote:I read through this thread and all I got was several minutes closer to the grave

But if it's not too much trouble, please bring back Ereshkigal's monster tits.

Is this just a joke or did Ereshkigal ACTUALLY have tits?

I can't really even imagine what that looks like.

yeah. the old tile was pretty much just some woman in white robe with white hair and her gazongas on display.

The Tavern

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