mutations


If it doesn't fit anywhere else, it belongs here. Also, come here if you just need to get hammered.

User avatar

Spider Stomper

Posts: 246

Joined: Thursday, 19th July 2012, 11:07

Post Wednesday, 1st June 2016, 15:08

mutations

I hate mutations altogether.
I hate that game has no r.mut anymore.
And I hate that potions of cure mutation are almost nonexistent (found the first and the last around lvl25). Seriously a single potion. Dafuq?..

Spider Stomper

Posts: 224

Joined: Monday, 19th November 2012, 04:56

Post Wednesday, 1st June 2016, 15:16

Re: mutations

You feel a little pissed off.

For this message the author RBrandon has received thanks: 11
Arrhythmia, dracos369, ManMan, PleasingFungus, Rast, Sar, TeshiAlair, Tiktacy, ydeve, ZoFy and one more user

Snake Sneak

Posts: 115

Joined: Friday, 23rd January 2015, 13:15

Post Wednesday, 1st June 2016, 15:55

Re: mutations

You feel your anger subside.

I played my first 300 or so games avoiding mutations and seeing no upside in mutation roulette. Now I go all in on every piece of flesh, it is one of my favourite things in the game.

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 329

Joined: Wednesday, 19th December 2012, 13:23

Post Wednesday, 1st June 2016, 16:04

Re: mutations

They are pretty annoying indeed but the cure mutation spawn rate has been increased to compensate so there's usually enough of them. You've either got quite unlucky or played around mutators poorly. If you're not using a setting like this (you could add orbs of fire there, i just do Zot at a snail's pace anyway)
  Code:
force_more_message += (neqoxec|cacodemon|shining eye).*come

you probably should.
Offline greaterplayer (who cares). I don't always play online, but when i do, i streak felids.
Zot:5 on easy mode video
Double Skullcrusher
User avatar

Spider Stomper

Posts: 246

Joined: Thursday, 19th July 2012, 11:07

Post Wednesday, 1st June 2016, 18:31

Re: mutations

I use flash_screen_message for these. It helps, but you still catch a mutation here and there if you play a lot of late-game and not going straight for the orb.
User avatar

Spider Stomper

Posts: 198

Joined: Friday, 6th November 2015, 01:35

Post Wednesday, 1st June 2016, 19:50

Re: mutations

y'know, you could always worship Zin...
Memento mori

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1189

Joined: Friday, 16th January 2015, 20:20

Post Wednesday, 1st June 2016, 21:47

Re: mutations

Or Jiyva...

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1667

Joined: Saturday, 11th October 2014, 06:12

Location: Brazil. RS, Santa Cruz do Sul.

Post Wednesday, 1st June 2016, 21:59

Re: mutations

Or Xom.
You shall never see my color again.
User avatar

Slime Squisher

Posts: 354

Joined: Thursday, 14th April 2011, 17:28

Post Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 03:12

Re: mutations

I, too, want rMut back in the game.... and I love mutation roulette....

Since when does Xom provide mutation protection?!
infinitevox on akrasiac & berotato
Busy dying horrible deaths from chugging too many pots of Mutation.
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4358

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd October 2013, 07:56

Post Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 07:35

Re: mutations

infinitevox wrote:Since when does Xom provide mutation protection?!

Xom can remove your bad mutations and give you good ones. I've heard Xomites often go around with a bunch of good mutations. My Xomites tend to die early, though.
DCSS: 77: ...SpWz{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDAr
HaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE
{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWr
Bloat: 4: RaRoPrPh{GuStGnCa
User avatar

Slime Squisher

Posts: 354

Joined: Thursday, 14th April 2011, 17:28

Post Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 07:38

Re: mutations

Yeah, I just played a Xom game earlier. Had 3 runes, 67 AC, 20 EV, 40 SH.
Then decided I *had* to do Elf. Got Abyssed (after already getting the abyssal rune the first time that happened), then died to a Lich's Crystal spear (42 damage) that Xom summoned.

Xom giveth and Xom taketh away.
infinitevox on akrasiac & berotato
Busy dying horrible deaths from chugging too many pots of Mutation.

For this message the author infinitevox has received thanks:
andreas
User avatar

Spider Stomper

Posts: 246

Joined: Thursday, 19th July 2012, 11:07

Post Friday, 3rd June 2016, 19:55

Re: mutations

hmm...
I've found the Hat of the Alchemist here and it's still have the rMut on it.
Is this a leftover from previous patches or game actually have rMut as a hidden stat?

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3160

Joined: Sunday, 5th August 2012, 14:52

Post Friday, 3rd June 2016, 20:05

Re: mutations

The hat of the alchemist and the lajatang of order still can give rMut.

For this message the author Lasty has received thanks:
white_noise

Spider Stomper

Posts: 197

Joined: Sunday, 4th September 2011, 20:45

Post Saturday, 4th June 2016, 02:58

Re: mutations

I'm pleased with the removal of rMut. It's making me play more carefully and thoughtfully, using terrain more, around mutators. I'm sure this will come back to bite me on the arse, but I actually feel I'm improving at the game.

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 742

Joined: Friday, 6th January 2012, 12:30

Post Monday, 6th June 2016, 01:38

Re: mutations

Can potions of beneficial mutation be made to only give beneficial mutations please?

For this message the author Wahaha has received thanks: 2
Rast, ZoFy

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8782

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Monday, 6th June 2016, 02:41

Re: mutations

it already does
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4358

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd October 2013, 07:56

Post Monday, 6th June 2016, 07:02

Re: mutations

duvessa wrote:it already does

I don't think a Tm for example will appreciate wild magic? Or anyone with a great randart helmet getting it pushed off.

edit: of course the question is should all mutations from !benemut be beneficial to all characters or just to some...
DCSS: 77: ...SpWz{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDAr
HaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE
{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWr
Bloat: 4: RaRoPrPh{GuStGnCa

Spider Stomper

Posts: 247

Joined: Monday, 10th November 2014, 21:32

Post Tuesday, 7th June 2016, 00:33

Re: mutations

Sprucery wrote:
duvessa wrote:it already does

I don't think a Tm for example will appreciate wild magic? Or anyone with a great randart helmet getting it pushed off.

edit: of course the question is should all mutations from !benemut be beneficial to all characters or just to some...


Duvessa is of the opinion that slotloss mutations are always good. Their damage increase is fairly significant, but whether that outweighs the loss of AC and potential resists is another question. It probably does in most cases without a randart hat or e.g. boots of running.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 1050

Joined: Thursday, 12th June 2014, 05:19

Post Tuesday, 7th June 2016, 06:36

Re: mutations

potion of beneficial mutation

A potion which grants a supposedly good mutation.

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2168

Joined: Saturday, 2nd February 2013, 09:52

Post Tuesday, 7th June 2016, 07:30

Re: mutations

Wild magic is certainly the most absurd case. It is good for a small percentage of characters (those who use conjurations or hexes), neutral for an even smaller percentage (berserkers), and bad for most characters.

I usually just throw away benemut potions, because I don't want to risk losing my spells. This is clearly an overreaction though.

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1230

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 21:57

Post Tuesday, 7th June 2016, 08:00

Re: mutations

FR: Rename [potion of beneficial mutation] to [potion of 'beneficial' mutation]

For this message the author 4Hooves2Appendages has received thanks: 2
HANFGEIST, Reptisaurus
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4358

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd October 2013, 07:56

Post Tuesday, 7th June 2016, 08:24

Re: mutations

milski wrote:Duvessa is of the opinion that slotloss mutations are always good. Their damage increase is fairly significant, but whether that outweighs the loss of AC and potential resists is another question. It probably does in most cases without a randart hat or e.g. boots of running.

Well, if my main form of offence is something else than melee, I'd rather have a good helmet than horns.

Magipi wrote:I usually just throw away benemut potions, because I don't want to risk losing my spells. This is clearly an overreaction though.

Heh, I always quaff them in great anticipation and fear at the same time. My current FeNe got passive mapping, MR+ and Str before wild magic, but in this case that was also a good mut.
DCSS: 77: ...SpWz{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDAr
HaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE
{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWr
Bloat: 4: RaRoPrPh{GuStGnCa

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1230

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 21:57

Post Tuesday, 7th June 2016, 09:33

Re: mutations

The way I see it, they are beneficial most of the time. So I'm happy to quaff them on weak characters because it is likely to help (a bit). But on strong characters the potential benefit is smaller so I don't bother.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4055

Joined: Tuesday, 10th January 2012, 19:49

Post Tuesday, 7th June 2016, 09:48

Re: mutations

If you interpret "Can potions of beneficial mutation be made to only give beneficial mutations please?" as asking for benemut to only give mutations that are on average beneficial, it indeed already does that. All the non-badmuts in crawl provide on average a benefit (for things like slotloss, it's a benefit even if you assume ~50% of characters get a benefit and 50% a penalty, since the benefit is larger than the penalty).

If you instead interpret it as asking for benemut to only give mutations which are never bad, well, crawl doesn't have that.

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1230

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 21:57

Post Tuesday, 7th June 2016, 10:12

Re: mutations

But there are some mutations that are never bad, right? Like becoming resistant fire or cold, or gaining AC.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4055

Joined: Tuesday, 10th January 2012, 19:49

Post Tuesday, 7th June 2016, 10:13

Re: mutations

Crawl doesn't have a category for that. It has only "bad" and "not-bad". I mean I guess someone here could possibly code it up and try to submit a patch to create a distinction.

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1230

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 21:57

Post Tuesday, 7th June 2016, 10:34

Re: mutations

Oh, I see. You were referring literally to the code. Yes, another category like 'never bad' could be added. It wouldn't even take very much work. Still, it hardly seems worth the effort.

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 463

Joined: Monday, 20th July 2015, 04:01

Post Tuesday, 7th June 2016, 14:40

Re: mutations

crate wrote:If you interpret "Can potions of beneficial mutation be made to only give beneficial mutations please?" as asking for benemut to only give mutations that are on average beneficial, it indeed already does that. All the non-badmuts in crawl provide on average a benefit (for things like slotloss, it's a benefit even if you assume ~50% of characters get a benefit and 50% a penalty, since the benefit is larger than the penalty).

If you instead interpret it as asking for benemut to only give mutations which are never bad, well, crawl doesn't have that.


I believe someone already stated how wild magic isn't beneficial most of the time. Slotloss mutations too are also very unwanted in most cases. Minor boost to offense (even less as a mage) is not worth losing a slot that a randart could go in.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4426

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Tuesday, 7th June 2016, 14:58

Re: mutations

4Hooves2Appendages wrote:Oh, I see. You were referring literally to the code. Yes, another category like 'never bad' could be added. It wouldn't even take very much work. Still, it hardly seems worth the effort.


It is called "depends" in CA fork, potion of beneficial mutation cannot give such mutations: wild magic, evolution, horns etc. IMHO it is worth the effort, now I am never disappointed by the potion. Now that we often cure all mutations late game anyway, the potion needs the buff since it makes curing all mutations harder.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4055

Joined: Tuesday, 10th January 2012, 19:49

Post Tuesday, 7th June 2016, 15:02

Re: mutations

Wild magic is beneficial most of the time, and even if it isn't it is the single best mutation in the game (maybe worse than robust, I guess?) for characters where it is good.

For this message the author crate has received thanks:
Arrhythmia

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4426

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Tuesday, 7th June 2016, 15:03

Re: mutations

It "depends" ;)

Edit. MP-powered wands is "depends" too. Not sure why Wild magic can be given by potion of benemut in vanilla crawl, but MP-powered wands cannot. If anything, the latter is good for more characters.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8782

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Tuesday, 7th June 2016, 18:24

Re: mutations

Mutations that are never bad do not exist. Resistance and AC mutations still make it harder to mutate further or cure bad mutations, and therefore can be interpreted as detrimental. There were actually people who sometimes avoided quaffing potions of gain [stat] back when they existed, because they were afraid of being unable to cure bad mutations later.
This is pretty about as reasonable as interpreting wild magic as detrimental.
If there is any mutation in the game that is labeled as good but is actually detrimental, I think it is rMut, since I don't mutate unintentionally.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4426

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Tuesday, 7th June 2016, 18:36

Re: mutations

That's probably casuistry at this point but robust on Formicid of Ashenzari is never bad, you are immune to berserkitis, teleportitis and you don't care about blurry vision or any other mutation unless you started as Berserker and never put any bonus stat points into Int (though I am not sure, maybe Formicid is immune to slow status from zero stat too).
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1822

Joined: Thursday, 31st May 2012, 15:45

Post Tuesday, 7th June 2016, 19:10

Re: mutations

Do existing mutations have any impact on the mutation chosen? For instance, if you have foo 1, do you have a greater chance of getting foo 2 than bar 1?
Won (52). Remaining (15): 5 species: Ba, Fe, Mu, Na, Op; 5 Backgrounds: AM, Wr, Su, AE, Ar; 5 gods: Jiyv, newNem, WJC, newSif, newFedh

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4426

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Tuesday, 7th June 2016, 19:41

Re: mutations

MainiacJoe wrote:Do existing mutations have any impact on the mutation chosen? For instance, if you have foo 1, do you have a greater chance of getting foo 2 than bar 1?


No except for that Abyss monster who gives temporary mutations (star something).

Spoiler: show
If you are playing CA fork, then there is one species which has intrinsic "focussed dna" from the list below:

◦good dna: increases chances that mutators will add a good mutation. (a "mutator" is any source of mutation)
◦bad dna: increases chances that mutators will add a bad mutation
◦clean dna: increases chances that mutators will remove a mutation when heavily mutated
◦resilient dna: lowers chances of a mutator causing the player to lose a good mutation
◦weak dna: increases chaces of a mutator causing the player to lose a good mutation
◦short dna: lowers the player's total mutation capacity, meaning a mutator will be likely to remove mutations to keep the total low.
◦long dna: increases the player's total mutation capacity.
◦focussed dna: increases the chance that a new mutation will be an enhancement to an existing one
◦unfocussed dna: reduces the chance that a new mutation will be an enhancement to an existing one
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

Return to Crazy Yiuf's Corner

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.