Hepliaklqana and cats

[duvessa]

Doesn't removing felids for that sort of go against the whole idea of "Improve not remove" that I see from devs all the time?

Well, I hope that whole idea of "Improve not remove" gets less popular among the devs, if you really do see it from the devs all the time. Because that is a terrible idea.

[Rast]

Elitist: full clearing is fine. The problem with Gozag is that you're encouraged to linger around *after clearing* a level. And that's not healthy.

You can do that for xp as well. If it's a problem, it's a bigger problem than getting more gold from the gold god is.

[dpeg]

Rast: True that! I guess that I perceive this as a special problem for Gozag tells you a lot about my greediness

Regardless of that, having a timer for each level might actually improve the experience, but it seems less urgent than I thought.

[Croases]

I don't know if you realise this, but you are not entitled to a reply. Beogh is the orc god because we like it. What else do you want? A proof? A poll showing that Korean players would start WW3 if we open up Beogh?

I certainly appreciate that the development team has the right to change the game as they see fit, ignoring player feedback if they have to. But I hope you also appreciate that the players, in return, have the right to whine about and/or poke fun at these design decisions, possibly with the hopes that it will result in improvements to the status quo (haha, fat chance). As CYC will plainly show, this right is exercised very frequently and on a very broad range of topics, and rightfully so - it does not make the community "toxic" or whatever.

You can certainly use your right to ignore feedback, but I think it's equally fair for me to say that Beogh is a good contender for the worst-designed god in the game (even after a solid set of recent improvements), and that you aren't arguing back from any stance beyond "this will be so because I want it to" because you actually have no arguments other than that. Although, in the spirit of fairness, I should also say that Beogh is terrible mostly because Crawl isn't very compatible with long-term ally play, him only being available to a single race out of umpteen for no real reason is not a major part of the equation (though it is still a part of it).

For the record, the "what else" I want is an argument along the lines of "Beogh shouldn't be allowed to X, Y and Z races because it would create tediously optimal strategies/be a no-brainer/confuse new players/have other actual gameplay consequences". If such an argument does not exist, then it can be said without reserve that a Crawl with a "free" Beogh is unarguably better than a Crawl with a restricted Beogh (because the former gives you more diversity without restricting you to superoptimal choices, thereby increasing replayability and creating interesting new interactions with Beogh and gimmicky races like nagas), and that the god should be enabled to all species.

[crate]

I still don't understand why felids can use wands.

[Tiktacy]

Doesn't removing felids for that sort of go against the whole idea of "Improve not remove" that I see from devs all the time?

the improvements to mountain dwarves, singularity, amulets of rmut/clarity/warding...

What is there to improve about those things?

MD's were far too similar to the other races and added nothing to the game, anything that could have been added would have been better suited on a new species anyway. Amulets were not just 'removed' they were removed and replaced, with much better and more interesting amulets btw.

Singularity was removed because it was a damage spell in a spell school not meant to deal damage, on top of being overpowered if I remember correctly.

All of those things had justifications for removal, the great irony of the things you listed as examples is that felids are on the opposite spectrum of all of those things: They are unique(unlike MD), they are interesting(unlike resist-amulets, which were basically just swap fodder), and they are far from overpowered and fit nicely among crawls other species, although they should really have their speed taken away and just be given more HP and a few armor slots to compensate.

[Tiktacy]

I still don't understand why felids can use wands.

[Croases]

there are hundreds of Beogh worshippers in a typical game of crawl. every one of them is an orc

Is this something that is shown to your average player? I only know about the monster religion thing because it was mentioned in passing on the learndb.

if you worship beogh, every follower he gifts you is an orc

If you can worship the demon-god that gives you demons without being a demon, and worship the slime god that gives you slimes without being a slime, I think you can worship the orc god that gives you orcs without being an orc too.

[CanOfWorms]

All of those things had justifications for removal, the great irony of the things you listed as examples is that felids are on the opposite spectrum of all of those things: They are unique(unlike MD)

which has no correlation with quality, you can have unique things that are bad or good, and unique things have been removed from crawl before

they are interesting and they are far from overpowered and fit nicely among crawls other species

according to players and devs, arguable

anyway the original point of that post is that there is no clear "improve not remove" attitude given the various removals that have occured

[Tiktacy]

All of those things had justifications for removal, the great irony of the things you listed as examples is that felids are on the opposite spectrum of all of those things: They are unique(unlike MD)

which has no correlation with quality, you can have unique things that are bad or good, and unique things have been removed from crawl before

they are interesting and they are far from overpowered and fit nicely among crawls other species

according to players and devs, arguable

anyway the original point of that post is that there is no clear "improve not remove" attitude given the various removals that have occured

You can't compare a niche monster like a Shedu that barely presents a threat and rarely appeared in the game to something that is a significant part of the game like threat-deregulating amulets, poorly balanced spells in the wrong spell school, and unnecessary species.

Interest is obviously subjective, but MD's were OBJECTIVELY very similar to minotaurs and hill orcs, meaning that the interest should still be the same. In other words, they weren't necessary.

[dpeg]

When the last player gives up and turns to Nethack, playing its Sokoban, then we have achieved our mission.

[CanOfWorms]

You can't compare a niche monster like a Shedu that barely presents a threat and rarely appeared in the game to something that is a significant part of the game like threat-deregulating amulets, poorly balanced spells in the wrong spell school, and unnecessary species.

but I can still use it as a point to prove that uniqueness has no bearing on the quality of something (and therefore whether it should be kept in the game); something can be both unique, and terrible. felids do not deserve to stay in the game merely because they are unique

Interest is obviously subjective, but MD's were OBJECTIVELY very similar to minotaurs and hill orcs, meaning that the interest should still be the same. In other words, they weren't necessary.

i was talking about felids. whether or not felids are "interesting, far from overpowered and fit nicely among other species" is clearly arguable given that many players and devs feel differently

[Tiktacy]

You can't compare a niche monster like a Shedu that barely presents a threat and rarely appeared in the game to something that is a significant part of the game like threat-deregulating amulets, poorly balanced spells in the wrong spell school, and unnecessary species.

but I can still use it as a point to prove that uniqueness has no bearing on the quality of something (and therefore whether it should be kept in the game); something can be both unique, and terrible. felids do not deserve to stay in the game merely because they are unique

No you can't. There exists a thing in game design known as "game polish" which is essentially giving a nice shine to a game through small adjustments that add up when you do a lot of them(I like to compare it to sharpening a knife). An example of polish is to remove something insignificant that adds something problematic(even just slightly) to the game without adding anything positive in return, in this case I imagine it had something to do with the fact that they were the only enemies in the game that could revive each other, and that ended up causing problems either from a coding/AI update standpoint or from a player clarity standpoint.

Keep in mind this is all speculation, often times game polish occurs without an explanation, and is simple grouped in with "minor fixes/changes."

My point is, your example doesn't work. You need something that is at the very least in the same ballpark of relevance to make a comparison that contributes to your point.

Also, uniqueness =/= worth it, I agree. But the whole point of having new species is for them to offer something unique to the game, so being unique plays an important role(while obviously not being everything) in decided if a species should stay or not. If you don't believe me, look at the species that have been removed in the past.

[tabstorm]

dpeg said that he has defended orc-only Beogh before, but I don't recall ever hearing an actual defense from him. All he did was to restate his position ("I want Beogh to retain its race restrictions") over and over, which isn't much of a defense.

I don't know if you realise this, but you are not entitled to a reply. Beogh is the orc god because we like it. What else do you want? A proof? A poll showing that Korean players would start WW3 if we open up Beogh?

Lasty: perhaps Felids should be on the chopping block?

Western capitalist pig Crawl developers blaspheme Beogh, allow worship by non-orcish races. DCSS-DPRK, meanwhile, retains direct management of orcish allies' equipment, is the envy of gamers worldwide.
- DPRK News Service

[all before]

I don't know if you realise this, but you are not entitled to a reply. Beogh is the orc god because we like it. What else do you want?

A developer that doesn't troll the player community. As I said above, if this is how you feel, I'm not sure why you post in this forum. Devs have the right to make whatever decisions they want with whatever justifications (or lack thereof) they like, but you are not adding anything to the discussion of the game's design by repeatedly telling players this fact in increasingly hostile ways. The point that people keep making is just that, *if* you are going to post justifications for design decisions, those justifications should actually involve arguments. Otherwise, it seems like you're just taking pleasure in expressing your authority while other people try to maintain a conversation about a game that, ostensibly, you care about.

[Tiktacy]

Croases: I am responsible for Beogh, and I have defended the decision to restrict followers to orcs. It's pure flavour. I assume that's "virtually no reason" but I don't mind.

FIERI STRIKES AGAIN

Spoiler: show

WELCOME TO

[duvessa]

to be fair it's not like beogh has any non-flavour reason to exist at all

[Tiktacy]

to be fair it's not like beogh has any non-flavour reason to exist at all

At least they finally added resurrection, I think dpeg has recovered from the shock and anger since then though.

[PleasingFungus]

At least they finally added resurrection, I think dpeg has recovered from the shock and anger since then though.

you... you know that resurrection was something dpeg had been pushing for literally years, right

[PleasingFungus]

Is this something that is shown to your average player? I only know about the monster religion thing because it was mentioned in passing on the learndb.

If you can worship the demon-god that gives you demons without being a demon, and worship the slime god that gives you slimes without being a slime, I think you can worship the orc god that gives you orcs without being an orc too.

orc priests/high priests/Saint Roka are the only beoghite monsters whose religion the player can currently confirm ('calls down the wrath of Beogh upon you!'). zin's recite would historically behave differently for orcs than for other intelligent monsters (since they follow an evil god), but that was removed the last time recite was revised, i think. i guess you could go back to older crawl versions to test?

also, slime mutations mean that clearly you can't worship jiyva without being a slime

[HardboiledGargoyle]

At least they finally added resurrection, I think dpeg has recovered from the shock and anger since then though.

you... you know that resurrection was something dpeg had been pushing for literally years, right

why would he push something so bad for flavor? I thought he was a flavor guy, and resurrection stretches Beogh flavor so thin... plus it was hard to code.

AFAIK Deep Elves are evil and follow evil gods, but I'm not sure.

[infinitevox]

AFAIK Deep Elves are evil and follow evil gods, but I'm not sure.

They're just misunderstood.

[Siegurt]

AFAIK Deep Elves are evil and follow evil gods, but I'm not sure.

They're just misunderstood.

[Tiktacy]

At least they finally added resurrection, I think dpeg has recovered from the shock and anger since then though.

you... you know that resurrection was something dpeg had been pushing for literally years, right

I give dpeg shit a lot of the time but I like him more than people might think. I greatly sympathize with his love for Flavor-Town, its the fact that I LIKE his attitude that makes me so angry when he throws down a shitty argument.

But I had no idea if he was for or against resurrection honestly. Interesting that you mention that though, who on the dev team if not him was opposed to it? I do vaguely remember him saying he supports resurrection, so I had a feeling it wasn't him. Really, I just thought it was something funny to say, and I was right, I'm still laughing at it.

EDIT: Just read HBG's post about being hard to code. Now that I think about it, it does kind of sound like a coding nightmare, and last time I checked dpeg doesn't do coding. I think I'm starting to connect the dots here.

[duvessa]

AFAIK Deep Elves are evil and follow evil gods, but I'm not sure.

not true at all, most of us are atheists

[Tiktacy]

AFAIK Deep Elves are evil and follow evil gods, but I'm not sure.

not true at all, most of us are atheists

Who needs intelligent design when you have game design?

[4Hooves2Appendages]

My big problem is that felids basically play a game w/o loot (well, very little loot), and in my opinion loot is a defining feature of crawl. Loot leads to excitement, and loot leads to differentiation of characters as you find different loot at different times, and make choices over which loot to use and which to ignore. The lack of loot makes most felids feel really similar from game to game, and means that many of the moments of excitement (discovery of a loot hoard!) have no emotional or decision-making weight attached.

I agree that finding loot is generally fun, although a lot of it is crap for a given character. Also seeing some cool, but unusable items lying can be a little unfortunate. However, being able to choose a race that uses very little loot is nice. It gives the game a more stream-lined / lean feeling. When playing Fe it's possible to just focus on the basics. As a result the game feels faster. The fragility (due to lack of armour / resists) also creates many more dangerous situations.

TLDR: Felids are fun to play partly because they don't use most loot.

[Croases]

orc priests/high priests/Saint Roka are the only beoghite monsters whose religion the player can currently confirm ('calls down the wrath of Beogh upon you!'). zin's recite would historically behave differently for orcs than for other intelligent monsters (since they follow an evil god), but that was removed the last time recite was revised, i think.

So what you're saying is that, since all Crawl orcs worship Beogh (as far as the average player is concerned), every player orc should also start with Beogh and be unable to change religions?

also, slime mutations mean that clearly you can't worship jiyva without being a slime

Undead.

[archaeo]

Okay, this has been open long enough.

On the topic of "toxicity": the Tavern has a subforum for meta conversations, Suggestions & Criticism. I for one totally welcome a conversation about what needs to change on Tavern to make it a fun community people want to take part in, so open a thread there if you want to continue talking about it. Or we can just keep being jerks to each other, which, you know, if that's what people want.

On the topic of gods and flavor-based restrictions: this has been an argument for as long as the Tavern has been online. We can keep having it, but blah blah Einstein's definition of insanity etc. etc. I don't think there's a "right" answer, but the devs' answer hasn't changed regardless.