on finite, unlimited resources (arrows)

[Hurricos]

The issue another poster brought up has a very simple solution: instead of requiring hunters to switch weapons and modify their playstyle every time they decide they should conserve arrows, introduce a new ranged weapon brand 'infinity' that doesn't consume ammo. Perhaps make it anti-vorpal as well to balance.

This means hunters no longer have to fiddle around with the +2 flaming dagger they got off Ijyb ten D levels ago because they artificially decided they were out of arrows/bolts/whatever when considering this particular encounter. It's not an interesting decision when your gameplay constantly revolves around making it again and again.

[Lasty]

This is not a good solution to the problem identified in this post: now instead of switching repeatedly to a +2 flaming dagger to kill green rats, you have to switch to a weaker bow to kill green rats.

[pubby]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox

[Rast]

The issue another poster brought up has a very simple solution: instead of requiring hunters to switch weapons and modify their playstyle every time they decide they should conserve arrows, introduce a new ranged weapon brand 'infinity' that doesn't consume ammo.

Good start, now just put it on all launchers and allow them to have a second brand as well.

[VeryAngryFelid]

CA fork is experimenting with it right now. All launchers can shoot without missiles indefinitely but there are no elemental launchers (brand ammo is still present so there is a way to increase damage when you need it). To balance it there is a damage and accuracy penalty when shooting at non-adjacent monsters (the longer distance the bigger penalty) so positioning still matters (luring Stone Giants around a corner etc.).

Edit. Though I am not sure it can apply to standard crawl. In CA sometimes it makes sense to NOT shoot to keep stamina for escape or for shooting at closer range. Without stamina you would just shoot every turn.

Edit2. Oh, and ammo always mulches. Even nets

[dynast]

Wow, you guys really have to start playing ranged backgrounds, specially whoever is doing the ranged rework.

[Rast]

He has, quite a bit, but it seems to have not helped. http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/lasty.html

Next up, someone who hates managing summons is going to redesign Beogh.

[duvessa]

Next up, someone who hates managing summons is going to redesign Beogh.

good

[infinitevox]

No fun allowed.

[duvessa]

what if i find it fun to play gods that work properly, or use ranged combat without it being broken

[Hurricos]

This is not a good solution to the problem identified in this post: now instead of switching repeatedly to a +2 flaming dagger to kill green rats, you have to switch to a weaker bow to kill green rats.

Disagree. There exists an inherent difference between ranged and physical combat, and switching between them in order to conserve ammo is much more tedious than switching between two forms of ranged combat. This is why my CeHus almost always pick up slings.

[dynast]

It is still tedious though. Also, why have a infinite ammo weapon brand instead of just having non branded ammo be infinite?
Why have branded weapons instead of branded ammo? Though i admit that most ammo brands were trivial, some of them were not. Finding and stack of poison, piercing or dispersal ammo was an interesting aspect that is now gone, because???

[Sar]

what if i find it fun to play gods that work properly

what if the things you find fun/unfun some other person finds unfun/fun

some people like elfs, some people like orcs, some people want to fuck a dragon, some people want to be fucked by one. some people like allies in Crawl, as degenerate as that sounds. the ally interface being bad is not a good thing, but it can probably be improved without just axing the whole thing. probably.

that said, if literally no one on the devteam likes allies, there's nothing we can do. except for submitting patches but fuck that nonsense

[ZipZipskins]

what if i find it fun to play gods that work properly

what if the things you find fun/unfun some other person finds unfun/fun

some people like elfs, some people like orcs, some people want to fuck a dragon, some people want to be fucked by one.

I'm pretty sure that was his point in the first place because someone criticised him by saying no fun allowed

[Sar]

I apologize for the outburst, then.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

Man, Hurricos, I posted that to make a more general point. My proposal there was an afterthought.

If you look at previous similar threads, you see defenses of the status quo: "there's no issue with current ammo limitations; pure single-skill ranged doesn't have to be viable; go play conj/melee if you want unlimited offense."

What I tried to draw attention to is that it's an (unwisely enforced) aesthetic preference for ammo conservation, not a power consideration. Imagine if melee weapons lost a point of enchantment every thousand hits or something - it would aggravate greatly, but nerf lightly.

You could make arrows infinite, without nerfing bows, and ranged would not actually be stronger than it is now. So your infinity brand does not need to be anti-vorpal; all that would really do is make easy fights take longer time and more keypresses.

[TonberryJam]

How far away from a Rogue-like game do you want to take this would be a first good question.

I think the main point of interest for ranged combat is the frugal use of ammo vs being a spendthrift of ammo.
Finding a "fun" implementation for that mechanic seems to be the challenge.

You could try the mass effect method. Unlimited ammo, and you need to reload.
You have your quiver of n amount of arrows.
Shoot x amount of arrows a turn.
Fletcher y amount of arrows a turn while not committing to another action. i.e. rest or explore.

It maintains the ammo destruction aspect of ranged combat, but removes the despair of destroying it all.

Melee=forever
Magic=regenerates
Ammo=depletes.

Seems like a fine mechanic to me.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

Your mechanic is very similar to MP and spells.

I think the main point of interest for ranged combat is the frugal use of ammo vs being a spendthrift of ammo.

I think the main point of interest for ranged combat is range - one of the reasons that "ranged combat" is a more common term than "ammo combat".

[TonberryJam]

Hey, it's funny that you mentioned that about the mechanic similarity...

I'm fairly certain ammunition has always been a main point of interest in range combat. "Range" is just the "style" of combat.

off topic comment, but i'd like to petition renaming melee combat as health combat and spell casting as mana combat.

[ZipZipskins]

Hey, it's funny that you mentioned that about the mechanic similarity...

I'm fairly certain ammunition has always been a main point of interest in range combat. "Range" is just the "style" of combat.

maybe for you but for me fiddling with ammo is an artifact of simulationist design. even when I run dungeons and dragons campaigns I don't make people keep track of ammo because it's so obnoxious to have to worry about each individual arrow or stone. (who am I kidding it's always an elven ranger, it's always arrows, who am I kidding)

the main point of interest in ranged combat is hitting things that are not adjacent to you imo

[duvessa]

I support infinite ammo over any form of limited ammo for several reasons; one that seems to get glossed over a lot is that the powers that be are intent on having monsters use items, especially equipment. When monsters use ammo, you can fight them by making them run out of ammo, using stairs etc. This is the main way to kill Vashnia and is often useful against things like stone giants as well.
Furthermore, when monsters also drop their items (another thing the devs seem to want to keep), giving monsters ammo makes it both nearly impossible to balance the amount of ammo given out to players, and adds a ton of item spam for players that do not want ammo. I have had occasions on Vaults:5 where monsters left so much crap on the ground that ctrl+F wouldn't let me list the items on the level with "." because there were too many matches.

[ydeve]

If you want to preserve limited ammo with players while having infinite ammo with monsters, then make ranged weapons have charges.

[infinitevox]

If you want to preserve limited ammo with players while having infinite ammo with monsters, then make ranged weapons have charges.

"Your Wand of Bolts of Penetration is out of charges!"

[andreas]

When monsters use ammo, you can fight them by making them run out of ammo, using stairs etc. This is the main way to kill Vashnia and is often useful against things like stone giants as well.

Why is this bad? (Honestly curious, not a rhetorical question.)

[PleasingFungus]

The Human Pincushion is not a very fun or challenging battle strategy