Replace Orbs of Fire with Elemental Orbs

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

In a regular game wearing and enchanting up an armour with rF+ or better is a no-brainer. Without getting extremely lucky with rF+ gear, nobody wears an IDA instead of an FDA ever, because in the end there be OoFs and more rF the better.

But what if there was a counterpart like OoI or OoElec or something like that? That would remove one apparently correct choice from the game. rC is quite good earlier on, and with the prospect of getting an even chance on OoFs and OoCs, it'd balance out things quite nicely.

[crate]

or perhaps making an enemy that is just a gearcheck of one specific resistance is a bad idea and you should fix that instead

[duvessa]

ida is probably useful almost exactly as often as fda is

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

ida is probably useful almost exactly as often as fda is

Is it? Every melee dude goes for either rF+ or MR plate AFAIK. IDA requires at least rF+ ring to patch rC-, and by the time those scales start to drop one is bound to hold it to FDA that gives good rF and just even rC doesn't bother anyone.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

or perhaps making an enemy that is just a gearcheck of one specific resistance is a bad idea and you should fix that instead

I don't see a "requirement" for rF or rC as a bad thing, especially as compared to just rF that everybody prepares for, making it a choice that really isn't one. At least it'd add some variability, and not make rC and no rF always worse than the opposite.

[duvessa]

yes, plate is better than either IDA or FDA, but you specifically compared IDA to FDA, and I do not believe that FDA is better than IDA

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

or perhaps making an enemy that is just a gearcheck of one specific resistance is a bad idea and you should fix that instead

I think the goodness of rF is way worse than the role of MR in the early/midgame. If you don't find the right gear, you're bound to get hexed/petrified/marked/whatever and you have no recourse. The worst offender here is paralysis, the Zot traps that proc like never will occasionally just kill you, just like the instadeaths in NetHack.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

yes, plate is better than either IDA or FDA, but you specifically compared IDA to FDA, and I do not believe that FDA is better than IDA

Ok, I agree. Unless one tries to play a hybrid with spells like SW and Regen etc., where FDA wipes the floor with IDA, always.

[crate]

I actually think crawl works perfectly fine if MR items go away entirely (except for mummies because confusion is a terrible effect). You cannot fight orbs of fire without rF unless you have Death's Door or summons. It might be possible to avoid fighting orbs of fire and still grab the orb without rF, but I'm not actually sure how doable that is since it means you need to make sure you stand next to orb guardians or such every turn you could get fireballed (to "block" the fireball with crawl's AI).

Anyway the other half of the problem is that if you do have rF++(+) orbs of fire are just a big (ok actually I think they are spriggan-sized so they are actually small) cuddly ball that doesn't do anything. Mutations don't really matter since they're only at the very end of the game. Things with mr-checking effects at least still have melee.

where FDA wipes the floor with IDA, always.

this is mostly meaningless since like, literally every single other dragon armour is better than either of them

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

I actually think crawl works perfectly fine if MR items go away entirely (except for mummies because confusion is a terrible effect).

MR is an early game lottery, maybe it's just fine and "works as intended" (tm). It sure adds a lot of variability early on, and if it's a choice by design, then well, so be it.

You cannot fight orbs of fire without rF unless you have Death's Door or summons.

Sure you can. Not just with a low-HP species. Statformers run through OoFs like butter, but I prefer to run through them in Dragon Form where it usually takes a hit or two less.

It might be possible to avoid fighting orbs of fire and still grab the orb without rF, but I'm not actually sure how doable that is since it means you need to make sure you stand next to orb guardians or such every turn you could get fireballed (to "block" the fireball with crawl's AI).

In all of my wins I've always cleared Zot:5, and especially with my punchy dudes it has been absolutely no problem whatsoever. A few without rF, but you only need rF if you're low on HP, and most races are not.

where FDA wipes the floor with IDA, always.

this is mostly meaningless since like, literally every single other dragon armour is better than either of them

Of course a plate rF+ is better, but for hybrids FDA is the best thing there is, barring ridiculous ring luck. That's why I'd like to see other resistances be a choice at least.

[crate]

swamp dragon armour is better than fda in basically 100% of games, since it gives AC/EV that is just as good, less ER, and doesn't have a negative resistance

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

swamp dragon armour is better than fda in basically 100% of games, since it gives AC/EV that is just as good, less ER, and doesn't have a negative resistance

I'll take your word for it. When I'm running good, and lack rPois, I'll pick up SwDA and enchant it up to a full armour, but I won't enchant it more than that. I often hold up for GDA if I'm high Str, and rarely seem to suffer from it. Why? I too often want to go the whole shebang. SwDA gives me great SW and Regen at least.

[ajon]

yes, plate is better than either IDA or FDA...

Why is plate better?

[chequers]

FR Very Ugly Orbs of Fire

[CanOfWorms]

orbs of damnation

[Sprucery]

You cannot fight orbs of fire without rF unless you have Death's Door or summons. It might be possible to avoid fighting orbs of fire and still grab the orb without rF, but I'm not actually sure how doable that is since it means you need to make sure you stand next to orb guardians or such every turn you could get fireballed (to "block" the fireball with crawl's AI).

Interesting.

[duvessa]

keep in mind that always involves either summon spam, or having a lot of HP and some controlled blinks i'm willing to lose

[WingedEspeon]

You cannot fight orbs of fire without rF unless you have Death's Door or summons. It might be possible to avoid fighting orbs of fire and still grab the orb without rF, but I'm not actually sure how doable that is since it means you need to make sure you stand next to orb guardians or such every turn you could get fireballed (to "block" the fireball with crawl's AI).

Maybe not in 0.18, but it was defiantly very doable in 0.17.

[pubby]

eat 1 oof and you gain rF+
eat 2 oof and you become oof