View: Okawaru is too good compared to others; UC is OP


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Post Thursday, 21st April 2016, 15:11

Re: View: Okawaru is too good compared to others; UC is OP

ThreeInvisibleDucks wrote:As for other gods, I've outlined the reasons why Oka is "optimal" in the early and midgame. Unless you address those, just name-dropping gods isn't going to cut it.
Sure, oka is optimal during all stages of the game, those other gods i named are just better.
Trog rage is stronger than heroism, it only gift weapons, he has summons to protect you.
Gozag provides everything oka does and more, also after gathering enough gold you can just buy the orb of zot and leave.
Fedhas mushrooms will kill everything early, after mushrooms get trivial you raise spores and after that oklobs.
Sif is broken if you play as a summoner, but you have to play as a summoner otherwise its a ok god.
Veh speeds up(in a consistent way) the process of getting stronger as a spellcaster.
Ely has life protection, a skill that can one shot most enemies, healing on demand and a huge hp boost.
Also Kiku, who i forgot to mention, good book gifts, lets you hide behind a army of undead and cover your escape with miasma.

Now this is interesting commentary, I admit that I have little experience with these other deities, but being so, I've still managed to snatch some wins with my limited experience. Are those gods better than Oka? What does it mean for a deity be strong?

In my opinion, Oka is strong because she allows you to kill the things you do anyway and get away with it. You punch dudes, they die, you get XP. Would Fedhas be better in that way? Would she allow you to be weaker, and still be able to kill the things that are in your way? IMHO, Oka makes it possible for even a weak race like a kitty to do those things, so would Fedhas be stronger than Oka? Not in my opinion.
Spellcasting penalties, Armour skill, and strength
15 runes: 2x HuSk, Op(Mo,Tm,Wn,Fi,Wr,EE,AM,Wz,Ne), VSTm, DsTm, Dg(Sk,Tm), MuGl, GhMo, Fe(En,EE,Ar,Wn,IE)
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Post Thursday, 21st April 2016, 15:26

Re: View: Okawaru is too good compared to others; UC is OP

dynast wrote:
ThreeInvisibleDucks wrote:As for other gods, I've outlined the reasons why Oka is "optimal" in the early and midgame. Unless you address those, just name-dropping gods isn't going to cut it.

Sure, oka is optimal during all stages of the game, those other gods i named are just better.
Trog rage is stronger than heroism, it only gift weapons, he has summons to protect you.
Gozag provides everything oka does and more, also after gathering enough gold you can just buy the orb of zot and leave.
Fedhas mushrooms will kill everything early, after mushrooms get trivial you raise spores and after that oklobs.
Sif is broken if you play as a summoner, but you have to play as a summoner otherwise its a ok god.
Veh speeds up(in a consistent way) the process of getting stronger as a spellcaster.
Ely has life protection, a skill that can one shot most enemies, healing on demand and a huge hp boost.
Also Kiku, who i forgot to mention, good book gifts, lets you hide behind a army of undead and cover your escape with miasma.

Okay, I admit that those reasons are pretty valid for choosing another deity than Oka in the first place. So I thank you for the argument. Just the argument I hoped to see in a thread like this.

I think what's left is the idea that Okawaru is easier than any of those, because what Oka does it makes you a more deadly version of yourself. So you don't have to change tactics, you can just do what you do, knowing that you can just become a more deadly version of yourself when necessary.
Spellcasting penalties, Armour skill, and strength
15 runes: 2x HuSk, Op(Mo,Tm,Wn,Fi,Wr,EE,AM,Wz,Ne), VSTm, DsTm, Dg(Sk,Tm), MuGl, GhMo, Fe(En,EE,Ar,Wn,IE)
3 runes: FoFi, OgSk, KoHu, SpCj, 2x DgGl, MiBe, Fe(Fi,Tm,Mo,Su)

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Post Thursday, 21st April 2016, 15:30

Re: View: Okawaru is too good compared to others; UC is OP

ThreeInvisibleDucks wrote:
Lasty wrote:I think Oka is still a reasonably powerful god, but nowhere near the top of power lists.

That's interesting. Which gods would you rate better? I'm really curious.

In the early game: Fedhas, Trog, Lugonu, Makhleb, Yred, sometimes Ely and Kiku.
Overall: all of the above plus Dith, Ru, Zin, Jiyva. Nemelex and Gozag are probably also stronger, but I just can't bring myself to enjoy them enough to be sure.

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Post Thursday, 21st April 2016, 15:34

Re: View: Okawaru is too good compared to others; UC is OP

Most of those gods are better because you dont have to punch dudes. It is just that you are looking at crawl from the perspective of a "kill dudes" type of game(which is also why you associate felids with being weak), while trying to argue with people who sees crawl from all the perspectives.
You could say that Oka is more fun than all of the gods a mentioned and i would agree, because oka incentivates a very straight foward with no consequences playstyle, even Trog requires you to constantly weight either its time to rage or not, when to use hand or when to call allies.
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Post Thursday, 21st April 2016, 15:37

Re: View: Okawaru is too good compared to others; UC is OP

Fedhas mushrooms are better than heroism at killing stuff early on. They do good damage plus chance to confuse. Even 0 invoc fedhas is basically a free trip to lair for most combos. The other fedhas abilities are also extremely good. Sunlight is a free accuracy buff. Rain lets you cheese a lot of encounters, so does being able to walk and fire through plants. Oklob plants are good for the entire 3 rune game with reasonable invocations investment. On top of that, it's more reliable to get fedhas piety and it doesn't decay over time. I would take fedhas over oka (assuming altars found at the same time) on every combo I can think of including felids. You should really try it out.

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Post Thursday, 21st April 2016, 15:41

Re: View: Okawaru is too good compared to others; UC is OP

Thank you for your comments, Lasty, and dynast, I've found both to be valuable and interesting. I admit that I look at the game through the lense of punching everything dead, so it hasn't really occured to me that the whole punching thing might be wrong
Spellcasting penalties, Armour skill, and strength
15 runes: 2x HuSk, Op(Mo,Tm,Wn,Fi,Wr,EE,AM,Wz,Ne), VSTm, DsTm, Dg(Sk,Tm), MuGl, GhMo, Fe(En,EE,Ar,Wn,IE)
3 runes: FoFi, OgSk, KoHu, SpCj, 2x DgGl, MiBe, Fe(Fi,Tm,Mo,Su)

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Post Thursday, 21st April 2016, 15:50

Re: View: Okawaru is too good compared to others; UC is OP

So the god that gets mentioned the most aparf from Trog is Fedhas here. So somewhat ironically, from this thread the idea that should be though about, is nerfing Fedhas, not Oka, even though I still maintain that Oka is OP.
Spellcasting penalties, Armour skill, and strength
15 runes: 2x HuSk, Op(Mo,Tm,Wn,Fi,Wr,EE,AM,Wz,Ne), VSTm, DsTm, Dg(Sk,Tm), MuGl, GhMo, Fe(En,EE,Ar,Wn,IE)
3 runes: FoFi, OgSk, KoHu, SpCj, 2x DgGl, MiBe, Fe(Fi,Tm,Mo,Su)

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Post Thursday, 21st April 2016, 15:51

Re: View: Okawaru is too good compared to others; UC is OP

ThreeInvisibleDucks wrote:Thank you for your comments, Lasty, and dynast, I've found both to be valuable and interesting. I admit that I look at the game through the lense of punching everything dead, so it hasn't really occured to me that the whole punching thing might be wrong

https://youtu.be/TdYB4VcWbXY?t=9
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Post Thursday, 21st April 2016, 15:54

Re: View: Okawaru is too good compared to others; UC is OP

crate wrote:
Since fighting is, itself, a percentage bonus, it doesn't effect the pre-AC percentage bonus to damage

but you also get +5 fighting skill from heroism, so it actually does matter

Good point, you can simply add 16.6% to all the numbers in my chart to account for the fighting bonus (Since +5 fighting is +16.6% damage before AC is applied regardless of what weapon you're using to do it or what skill you have in either fighting or weapon skill)
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Post Thursday, 21st April 2016, 16:07

Re: View: Okawaru is too good compared to others; UC is OP

My take from this thread is that apparently there are even stronger gods than Oka, so she shouln't be nerfed.
Spellcasting penalties, Armour skill, and strength
15 runes: 2x HuSk, Op(Mo,Tm,Wn,Fi,Wr,EE,AM,Wz,Ne), VSTm, DsTm, Dg(Sk,Tm), MuGl, GhMo, Fe(En,EE,Ar,Wn,IE)
3 runes: FoFi, OgSk, KoHu, SpCj, 2x DgGl, MiBe, Fe(Fi,Tm,Mo,Su)

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Post Thursday, 21st April 2016, 16:11

Re: View: Okawaru is too good compared to others; UC is OP

Apparently I'm pretty much alone with my view that Oka's abilities are crazy strong even for species that can't use the weapon and armour gifts.
Spellcasting penalties, Armour skill, and strength
15 runes: 2x HuSk, Op(Mo,Tm,Wn,Fi,Wr,EE,AM,Wz,Ne), VSTm, DsTm, Dg(Sk,Tm), MuGl, GhMo, Fe(En,EE,Ar,Wn,IE)
3 runes: FoFi, OgSk, KoHu, SpCj, 2x DgGl, MiBe, Fe(Fi,Tm,Mo,Su)

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Post Thursday, 21st April 2016, 17:11

Re: View: Okawaru is too good compared to others; UC is OP

Oka's abilities are strong, but many gods' abilities are stronger. In general, gods are very strong.

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Post Thursday, 21st April 2016, 17:16

Re: View: Okawaru is too good compared to others; UC is OP

Siegurt wrote:
crate wrote:
Since fighting is, itself, a percentage bonus, it doesn't effect the pre-AC percentage bonus to damage

but you also get +5 fighting skill from heroism, so it actually does matter

Good point, you can simply add 16.6% to all the numbers in my chart to account for the fighting bonus (Since +5 fighting is +16.6% damage before AC is applied regardless of what weapon you're using to do it or what skill you have in either fighting or weapon skill)

+10 fighting seems to be approximately the amount you say, not +5 (I'm testing against hydra, which has 0 ac). This is why I just use fsim, it's much harder to get things wrong.

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Post Thursday, 21st April 2016, 17:30

Re: View: Okawaru is too good compared to others; UC is OP

Just as a minor point, I would consider TSO to be far superior to Mak in extended for most characters. Mak's active abilities aren't too great in extended, at least, not as good as summoning an angel. The heal on kills and MP on kills is better than mak's heal on kills. Best of all (although not if you only use UC) you can holy brand a weapon, meaning you murderize everything in extended (then get lots of HP and MP for it!).

The downside of TSO is losing access to necromancy spells, and a total lack of stealth.

Of course, in the pre-extended game, mak is way better than TSO.
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Post Thursday, 21st April 2016, 19:34

Re: View: Okawaru is too good compared to others; UC is OP

Lasty wrote:
ThreeInvisibleDucks wrote:
Lasty wrote:I think Oka is still a reasonably powerful god, but nowhere near the top of power lists.

That's interesting. Which gods would you rate better? I'm really curious.

In the early game: Fedhas, Trog, Lugonu, Makhleb, Yred, sometimes Ely and Kiku.
Overall: all of the above plus Dith, Ru, Zin, Jiyva. Nemelex and Gozag are probably also stronger, but I just can't bring myself to enjoy them enough to be sure.



I haven't used Gozag since the gold distraction got nerfed some, but I'm willing to bet that he's still extremely powerful. Potion petition is extremely useful, bribe is borderline broken in branch ends, and you've got to love having a great piece of gear in every slot before you even get to Vaults.

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Post Thursday, 21st April 2016, 23:39

Re: View: Okawaru is too good compared to others; UC is OP

ThreeInvisibleDucks wrote:Apparently I'm pretty much alone with my view that Oka's abilities are crazy strong even for species that can't use the weapon and armour gifts.

You shouldn't treat other opinions as 100% correct. For example I disagree with half of the gods named as stronger than Okawaru above, *when using UC with Okawaru*. But arguing is pointless. When you explain that heroism gives way over 100% more damage with UC, and better defenses, and some people still think that training 10 invocations to have a chance to pacify monsters is better, you just have to keep your opinion to yourself.

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Post Friday, 22nd April 2016, 01:23

Re: View: Okawaru is too good compared to others; UC is OP

by the way it's also completely okay for okawaru to be the unarmed combat god

heroism for weapons is still good but it's like a 30~40% damage increase or something, not the 100% you get for UC (also it's a bit harder to value how good it is, since you change your xp investment because of min delay magic numbers, whereas with UC you pretty much just train skills the same way with oka that you would without oka)

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Post Friday, 22nd April 2016, 08:26

Re: View: Okawaru is too good compared to others; UC is OP

crate wrote:by the way it's also completely okay for okawaru to be the unarmed combat god

heroism for weapons is still good but it's like a 30~40% damage increase or something, not the 100% you get for UC (also it's a bit harder to value how good it is, since you change your xp investment because of min delay magic numbers, whereas with UC you pretty much just train skills the same way with oka that you would without oka)

I do agree that Oka is especially good for transmuters, not just because Heroism gives one a better damage boost than for weapon-wielders, but Heroism also lets you get away with training the other skills conductive to killing power, like transmutations, and still not fall behind in the power curve.
Spellcasting penalties, Armour skill, and strength
15 runes: 2x HuSk, Op(Mo,Tm,Wn,Fi,Wr,EE,AM,Wz,Ne), VSTm, DsTm, Dg(Sk,Tm), MuGl, GhMo, Fe(En,EE,Ar,Wn,IE)
3 runes: FoFi, OgSk, KoHu, SpCj, 2x DgGl, MiBe, Fe(Fi,Tm,Mo,Su)

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Post Friday, 22nd April 2016, 15:53

Re: View: Okawaru is too good compared to others; UC is OP

crate wrote:
Siegurt wrote:
crate wrote:but you also get +5 fighting skill from heroism, so it actually does matter

Good point, you can simply add 16.6% to all the numbers in my chart to account for the fighting bonus (Since +5 fighting is +16.6% damage before AC is applied regardless of what weapon you're using to do it or what skill you have in either fighting or weapon skill)

+10 fighting seems to be approximately the amount you say, not +5 (I'm testing against hydra, which has 0 ac). This is why I just use fsim, it's much harder to get things wrong.


Ah yes, but using fsim is much harder than using a calculator when I am responding on my cell phone. but yes, you are correct, I was responding from memory rather than sitting down at a computer, also I didn't really feel like being rigorous and double checking at that moment.

5 fighting is + 5/30ths (which is 16.6%) max damage before enchantments, slaying or ac, not average damage, average damage is increased by 8.3% (obviously average of a flat distribution being half of the max) by increasing fighting by 5, hence that is the number you should add to my charts, if you cared :)
Last edited by Siegurt on Saturday, 23rd April 2016, 18:22, edited 3 times in total.
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Post Friday, 22nd April 2016, 17:56

Re: View: Okawaru is too good compared to others; UC is OP

Tavern posters really need to pay more attention to their quote tags

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Post Saturday, 23rd April 2016, 18:21

Re: View: Okawaru is too good compared to others; UC is OP

duvessa wrote:Tavern posters really need to pay more attention to their quote tags

Fixed, that's what I get for trying to fix overly nested quotes on my phone
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Post Sunday, 24th April 2016, 00:05

Re: View: Okawaru is too good compared to others; UC is OP

ThreeInvisibleDucks wrote:
So Makh becomes more "optimal" than any other god at that point. Try and clear a Zig without Makh, it's just too dangerous.

As for other gods, I've outlined the reasons why Oka is "optimal" in the early and midgame. Unless you address those, just name-dropping gods isn't going to cut it.


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On your topic:
I like Okawaru since he is so straight forward.
On top of that I'm getting gifts.
Any other god forces me to make decisions. Oka just improves the same old style :)
To me it is a very beginner-friendly god (but he doesn't add anything new.)
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Post Sunday, 24th April 2016, 04:44

Re: View: Okawaru is too good compared to others; UC is OP

From testing with various weapons and races, the only real time that UC outperforms a weapon is with Trolls. Everyone else does better with a well enchanted weapon. So no, UC isn't OP.
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Post Monday, 25th April 2016, 08:40

Re: View: Okawaru is too good compared to others; UC is OP

Xion350 wrote:From testing with various weapons and races, the only real time that UC outperforms a weapon is with Trolls. Everyone else does better with a well enchanted weapon. So no, UC isn't OP.
you forgot blade hands
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